Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

Williams 728
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Beersmith mobile sucks. I just populated my info into the desktop version based on my efficiency and actually hit 2 GUs over. If it drops to 1.009 FG, I'll be at 10.5% ABV which is within target. Looks like I'll be recreating my recipes in desktop, placing on the cloud, and pulling them down via mobile on my tablet.
 
FredTheNuke said:
Try this - MUCH better in my opinion than a refractometer. Auto temperature compensation and all. I use disposable 5ml pipettes to draw samples from the MLT, BK at pre boil, BK near final and OG from the fermenter.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002NX0WHS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Click to expand...

This is a refractomter. Compensation is a nice feature though. The pipettes are LDPE and not suited for boiling temps. Best not to introduce low thermal plastics, (< 178F), to the boil surface. Use a borosilicate glass dropper.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Quick question: I have a vial of Brett Brux that I bought a whole ago and never used, would this beer work to add the Brett to secondary and age for 9 months? I know it won't be the same beer, but I'm hoping the Brett would add a fruityness to it. I've never had the original, so I'm not sure what to expect. Thank you!


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mrdauber64 said:
Quick question: I have a vial of Brett Brux that I bought a whole ago and never used, would this beer work to add the Brett to secondary and age for 9 months? I know it won't be the same beer, but I'm hoping the Brett would add a fruityness to it. I've never had the original, so I'm not sure what to expect. Thank you!


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Brett tends to add 'funk and tang' to lambics and reds at higher ferm temps and lower ABVs in a secondary dosing, (90F and < 9% ABV).

The plum/fig palate in the Westy 12 develops via Westmalle yeast interacting with the right balance of sugars over time.
 
I think the brux most labs sell is isolated from Orval with its characteristic funk and not so much fruitiness. Fruitiness can be contributed by hops and not necessarily in your face fruity hops. Brett strains have the ability to liberate aroma and flavor molecules that are otherwise bound, but brett can break them apart during long term aging. I have taken bottles of this clone skipped priming sugar, added brett, and let it go until the corks moved against the cages. Then I threw it in the fridge. It was real nice. It's not Westvleteren though but it's damn good beer.
 
Can someone explain this passage for me?
Decoction Mash, Double
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
10 min Protein Rest Add 32.00 qt of water at 137.5 F 132.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 8.79 qt of mash and boil it 151.0 F ---> does this mean that you take out 8.79qt of the grist and bring it to a boil, and then take it back to the main kettle and let i stay at 151F for 30 minutes? If so, the first step with 10 min @ 132F will be for even longer, thus it takes way longer time to boil the 8.79qt - and for how long should it be boiled?

30 min Saccharification Decoct 4.85 qt of mash and boil it 159.0 F
 
mrdauber64 said:
Quick question: I have a vial of Brett Brux that I bought a whole ago and never used, would this beer work to add the Brett to secondary and age for 9 months? I know it won't be the same beer, but I'm hoping the Brett would add a fruityness to it. I've never had the original, so I'm not sure what to expect. Thank you!


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Click to expand...

How long ago is a while? If you are going to let something sit on brett for 9 months it would probably be a good idea to pick up a new vial with fresh yeast considering the cost is so low.

Also, people will point out Brett flavors are not within the style definitions of this beer, especially if you are attempting to clone Westy.

That said, adding brett to a beer like this is an awesome idea if you want to develop some additional complexity. Last year I did a batch of dark strong that for whatever reason wouldnt ferment out past 1.024 after an OG of 1.104. I pitched brett into it which took the beer down to 1.008 over 4 months. I added some corn sugar and racked the beer to champagne bottles. 1 month later the beer had carbed up via the brett and tastes awesome. Now I have 10 more of these champagne bottled brett dark strongs that I am cellaring and its going to become a mainstay in my pipeline of beers.
 
smokinghole said:
Yeast is very resilient especially brett. If the tube is with in a year use it. I got all my souring culture yeasts and bacteria out of lambic bottles and they are voracious.
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I get the idea of culturing and that brett has a longer shelf life, but still if you are using something that can be purchased for less than $10 and pitching it into something that will sit for 9 months, Id place my money with the new purchase rather than the old. I dont see the point.
 
I an far from a tightwad when it comes to homebrewing. With that said, and my lab experience with yeast, I see no point in spending the $7 for a new tube. Hell I would advise he buy a bottle of Orval, should be about $5 and cheaper than yeast, drink it, then use the bottle yeast with the tube. It'll work I promise. I dont want to hold anyone back from spending more on yeast though just to be safe.

Also, it wont HAVE to sit for 9 months. I bet the Brett would be done in 5-6. If kept relatively warm even faster.
 
Awesome advice guys, thanks. I brewed this beer 2 weeks ago, and it is sitting at 1.016 right now( I overshot the OG. My OG was 1.105). I bought the Brett vial about 6 months and it has been stored in my fridge since then. I think I'll take your advise and pitch the vial along with the dregs of a bottle of Orval.

I know I won't get a Westy clone, but it seems to an excellent base recipe for the Brett.


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Two things.
I agree with smokinghole about yeast. For some reusing yeast is about saving money, nothign wrong with that, for others it's about enhancing skills, understanding what's happening with brewing, and in many peoples opinion reused yeast could be healthier than from packaged. Depending on the age of the package and how it was handled, washed or yeast from yeast cakes, can be healthier and provide better end products. I'm also more apt to buy a bottle or 6 pack of something and build a starter from that rather than drop the money on just yeast, might as well get some enjoyment out of the $7 -$10.

I'm looking to brew the Traditional Pious this weekend and will be doing BIAB, so might add a pound of each malt do to efficiency, I'm also going to use WY3522 since I have some in a jar and just need to do a small starter to wake it up. I'm working on my math first since I'm also planning to add some cherries or cherry juice soaked or mixed with a small amount of Member's Mark for sanitization, after initial fermentation and at bottling just to bring out more cherry taste rather than plum/raisin.
 
Rochefort 10 has an incredibly wonderful cherry ester up front. The Rochefort strain will produce it without using fruit additions. But alas, we're off topic...plenty of Rochefort and fruit/lambic threads. None of this has a thing to do with brewing a Westvleteren 12 clone.
 
mrdauber64 said:
Awesome advice guys, thanks. I brewed this beer 2 weeks ago, and it is sitting at 1.016 right now( I overshot the OG. My OG was 1.105). I bought the Brett vial about 6 months and it has been stored in my fridge since then. I think I'll take your advise and pitch the vial along with the dregs of a bottle of Orval.

I know I won't get a Westy clone, but it seems to an excellent base recipe for the Brett.


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Click to expand...

Brett and Orval, (WLP510 platinum series), will create a yeasty, mildly sweet pear-fruity, drier ale. It's unbelievably good in blonde's and pale's and sans the brett the Orval strain makes a truly exquisite Tripel, (dry hopped with higher aroma US Saaz, wow!). But I gotta say it's got nada to do with brewing a Westvleteren 12 clone here.
 
I brewed the single malt version two months ago. At 2 weeks it had hit 1.012, so I racked to a secondary and it has been sitting at 58 degrees since then. In a perfect world it should have been much colder but I had very limited room in my keezer. My question is: should I bottle now, or cold condition? (I now have room in my keezer.)

Thanks,
Mike
 
CSI said:
Rochefort 10 has an incredibly wonderful cherry ester up front. The Rochefort strain will produce it without using fruit additions. But alas, we're off topic...plenty of Rochefort and fruit/lambic threads. None of this has a thing to do with brewing a Westvleteren 12 clone.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the feedback on this. Originally I was looking for a Three Philosophers clone but there doesn't seem to be a tried and true one. So, I figured I would find another solid Quad recipe and then add some cherries, in some form, to somewhat imitate what Ommegang does with Three Philosophers. Yes I know they add Kriek not cherries, but that's another conversation and part of why I said imitate.

With your input on the Rochefort strain giving off cherry like qualities I will look into that. I would prefer to stick with water, malt, hops, and yeast as much as possible and get the aroma and flavor from that since using fruits or other additions tend to fade over time.
 
LaFinDuMonde said:
I brewed the single malt version two months ago. At 2 weeks it had hit 1.012, so I racked to a secondary and it has been sitting at 58 degrees since then. In a perfect world it should have been much colder but I had very limited room in my keezer. My question is: should I bottle now, or cold condition? (I now have room in my keezer.)

Thanks,
Mike
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We crash to brighten and flocc the old yeast. The monks at St. Sixtus have reportedly variable crash duration(s) based on whether the flocc went well or slowly...3 weeks to 6 weeks.
 
bolus14 said:
I appreciate the feedback on this. Originally I was looking for a Three Philosophers clone but there doesn't seem to be a tried and true one. So, I figured I would find another solid Quad recipe and then add some cherries, in some form, to somewhat imitate what Ommegang does with Three Philosophers. Yes I know they add Kriek not cherries, but that's another conversation and part of why I said imitate.

With your input on the Rochefort strain giving off cherry like qualities I will look into that. I would prefer to stick with water, malt, hops, and yeast as much as possible and get the aroma and flavor from that since using fruits or other additions tend to fade over time.
Click to expand...

I don't know how much like Three Philosophers mine turned out but I took the base reicpe here with no specialty grains and added about 16 oz of Just Cherry tart juice to 5 gallons. It was a huge hit and I loved it. A friend that's a professional brewer and now a head brewer of a CA brewery said "this right here is rockstar". So take that for what it is, but this Westy 12 clone recipe with some tart cherry juice added was a winning combo to my taste buds.
 
On their tour they say it's their own house strain. Might be Chimay based, but since they're owned by Duvel, but since they were brewing and distributing before Duvel bought them it could be a different strain. At this point if they've been culturing it as their own it likely carries differences from the Chimay strain though.

On the tour they also say they bottle with the same strain and if you want you could culture from any bottle of theirs, the Witte being the best since it's the lowest ABV. There are a few collaboration brews that would be exceptions depending on which breweries strain was used, but they also tend to be higher ABV beers.
 
bolus14 said:
On their tour they say it's their own house strain. Might be Chimay based, but since they're owned by Duvel, but since they were brewing and distributing before Duvel bought them it could be a different strain. At this point if they've been culturing it as their own it likely carries differences from the Chimay strain though.

On the tour they also say they bottle with the same strain and if you want you could culture from any bottle of theirs, the Witte being the best since it's the lowest ABV. There are a few collaboration brews that would be exceptions depending on which breweries strain was used, but they also tend to be higher ABV beers.
Click to expand...

I don't know if it is Chimay-based or not - but when I make a Chimay clone and try it next to 3 philosophers, it has tasted the same. It may just be they share the same tanginess that Chimay has (compared to Westmalle) and may be, too, that it has the thinner mouthfeel that Chimay has (again, compared to Westmalle or Rochefort.)

It isn't a bad thing - just trying to make the point that the recipe in this thread calls for using the Westmalle strain and that would make it too dissimilar (in my opinion) from 3 philosophers to compare the two (even if other factors already differentiated them!)

(Maybe I missed the point of the original comment altogether, in which case I apologize for taken the thread off course.)
 
Good info, guess I didn't read your comment to be a comparison to how the yeast strain would make it dissimilar to a Westy clone.

I also apologize for taking the thread off course and not focusing on information that would pertain to making a Westvleteren clone.
 
securedownload_zps4d28505a.jpeg


Bottling done! :rockin:
 
jtp137 said:
How long did you wait?
Click to expand...

According to my notes:

4/1/14
Cool wort to 64* pitch Wyeast 3787. Keep at 66-68* for 4 days then keep at 72-74* until 4/15
4/15
Move to 60*
4/26 rack into secondary (1.012) Keep at 60*
6/14 bottle (1.011)

So, 2 1/2 months before bottling.
 
Almost 288,000 views and 190+ replies, I have to brew this beer!
Tried a Colorado Quad for the first time last week and it was delicious.
Saw this thread and read about 15 pages, ran out and bought my grains ($75.00) for the New World Recipe.
Will get a starter going tomorrow (Wednesday) for brew day Saturday.
It's warm here now so should be able to hit those 80 degree temps during fermentation in the garage.
Planning this now to enjoy at Christmas.
Over the next few days I'll try getting through the posts but anyone have a condensed version of improvements or cautions from the initial recipe?
My LBS didn't have Servomyces, is there a substitute or replacement?
 
ultravista said:
$75.00 for the New World Recipe? Whatcha doing, 20 gallons?
Click to expand...
I wish!!
candi syrup was $9 each, needed 3
yeast was another $8
$2 an oz. On the hopps that comes to $6
$28 on the grains and $5.81 tax for a total of $74.61

im really hoping its worth it:mug:
 
A shopped retail cost for a 5 gallon batch should be about $42.00.

15.5lbs Pils/Pail $1.22/lb
3.00 lbs D-180 $6.49/lb
Wyeast cultured starter ($1.40 for DME)
Hops $3.00

A Westmalle Tripel clone is a good stepping stone and lower expense if you haven't used the Westmalle strain before on a higher gravity Belgian. It'll hedge bets on the more difficult quads like the Westy 12.
 
FatDragon said:
With typically two weeks or longer of transit time, I'm not so certain the ice packs would hold out for a shipment to China. We've got a guy in Shanghai who imports liquid yeast and keeps some in stock or can import it on demand (very possibly the same as you're suggesting), but he charges about $25/vial and while I know he keeps it refrigerated, I'm not sure how fresh it would be when it got to me.

If I had a stir plate and flask, and a pressure cooker for slanting and/or a larger fridge/freezer for storing slants/extra slurry from starters, I would probably start building a collection, but the fact is that I'm in an apartment with a fridge that's about 25% too small for our food needs already, and with the exception of this proposed brew, I'm still a total yeast novice - pitching rehydrated dry yeast or, if I'm living on the edge, pitching on a yeast cake is all I've really needed to do so far.

One day, I hope to be as obsessed and knowledgeable as the old hands here on the forum, but for now, I'm a six-months-of-experience, dry yeast, feed-grade malt, BIAB sort of guy. I know that's not a very promising profile for someone trying to make anything even close to a Westy 12 clone, but barring a dump-worthy infection, the worst case scenario is that I'll end up with beer, and I'm willing to risk that.
Click to expand...

I am in Japan and we have the same issues with respect to yeast here. I made my first attempt at this clone using WLP530 that I had frozen, and it is currently chugging along.

I was able to order the yeast locally but it was expensive and took forever to get. I brewed a very simple Belgian Blonde recipe with an OG of around 1.045 to propagate the yeast (as well as make a nice beer) and then froze a number of vials of that yeast using a combination of the techniques here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/freezing-yeast.html
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/guide-making-frozen-yeast-bank-35891/

I now have a nice stock of WLP530 (And different yeasts) that don't take up too much space in my freezer, and save me money on yeast. I know you don't have much room, but perhaps this might work for you. You have to work within the confines of where you are and what is available, absolutely! But if you want to branch out and experiment it is a great way to learn. If no pressure cooker, then santize, if no stir plate, shake in an old santized jar with foil on the top.

If you'd rather just enjoy the dry yeast that is great too. I brewed with 04 and 05 for years. I was expecting to get the WLP530 for a big Belgian Christmas beer I had made. It didn't arrive in time and I had to use 05. Still made decent beer, but not what I was shooting for. I didn't really start into Liquid yeast until this year, but since I have started I have found the yeast strain and yeast management (ferm temps, pitch rates etc.) to have the biggest effect on my beer flavour (for better or worse).

frozen.jpg
 
$40-75 and its still worth it. I drink a bottle every couple of weeks and its immensely enjoyable. I would guess I have 18 bottles left. With 7 Belgian batches under my belt, this has been my favorite by far.
 
I intend to have it on tap 12 months out of the year (plus another 30 bottles aging in racks for special occasions). Good Chit!
 
Finally got through the 1900+ posts.. took a few days but it was worth it.
I brewed the New World this morning and kept to the original recipe... mainly because I already purchased the ingredients and had my starter started.

Wish I'd read through the posts first but was pretty excited to just get my ingredients and brew this weekend.
Next time I'll get the Candi Syrup brand and try their recipe.

Hit 1.086 so a little lower than targeted. Pitched 2L decanted starter at 65°
Beersmith shows 10% ABV if I final out at 1.011
All set up with a blowoff tube for the next 5 days. Anxious to see how this is percolating in the morning.
 
But don't worry too much... I pitched a 5 liter starter into mine in a temp controlled keezer and had to fight it tooth and nail below 1.015...


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This stuff took off like a rocket! My blow off blew off at midnight (12 hours after pitching). Got things cleaned up and used a bigger blow off container.
Today it's non-stop bubbles.. never had that before.
Worried a little about the temp as it's already at 80.
So if I get to .012 with a SG of 1.086 I'll be good you think?
Have a temp controlled wine chiller for the secondary, so 50° wont be a problem for a couple months.
 
It always starts like that... Your temps are too high for a true phenol profile though. The struggle begins around 1.030 or so.


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If you don't have a jacketed fermenter you can use a fan to gently slow the rise. I don't like to get beyond 80F with Westmalle. That being said, I've seen it climb to 84F without any problems whatsoever.

Any chance your blow-off yeast is sterile/recoverable?
 

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