Did you dump the entire 3.8L starter or just the yeast? That's approximately 1 gallon.
I call that urinal math. Easiest metric to english customary conversion for me to remember. 3.8L per flush/1 US gal per flush.
Did you dump the entire 3.8L starter or just the yeast? That's approximately 1 gallon.
smokinghole said:I call that urinal math. Easiest metric to english customary conversion for me to remember. 3.8L per flush/1 US gal per flush.
The westmalle yeast produces a chocolate banana kind of flavor to varying degrees across the temperature profile, its fairly subtle and compliments well with fig/date kinds of characters it makes that are also present from the grist/candi syrup. Don't worry about your fermentation time to FG unless its going really long, but you will want to let it sit and condition per the guidelines outlined in this thread.
Anyone pick up bubblegum flavors with this? I'm about 8 days since brewing, held the fermentation temps at 81-82 for the suggested time and i'm down to 1.015. Taste is very good, but the bubblegum flavor is much more pronounced than my last sample a few days ago. Krausen dropped, but still a lot of yeast in suspension. As of now i'm leaving it at ambient, which is around 70.
Is it really THAT important to rack to secondary in less than a week? I rarely take higher gravity beers out of primary less than two weeks in. I usually give the yeast time to do some clean-up after active fermentation. Does racking that early help preserve the ester profiles essential to this beer, or is it simply due to impatience?I'm at 1.017 from a 1.097 now at 4 days from pitch. I realized I've loosely followed the fermentation profile ( chasing it around a bit)... To summarize;
0 hour- 2 min o2 and pitched at 75 F ramped Down to 62
24 hour- began to let free rise
48 hour- peaked at 71 F began to heat ramp
60 hour- attemperated @ 81 F
96 hour- gravity 1.017. Halted attemperation
It's free falling now, still active. My question is-
Should I rack now @ 77 F?
Or
Should I at temperate to 65 ( or other) and rack?
Do I give it time to settle the yeast out to lower my carry over to secondary
Or
do I just rack as is and then attemperate it to 65 for aging?
I'm at 1.017 from a 1.097 now at 4 days from pitch. I realized I've loosely followed the fermentation profile ( chasing it around a bit)... To summarize;
0 hour- 2 min o2 and pitched at 75 F ramped Down to 62
24 hour- began to let free rise
48 hour- peaked at 71 F began to heat ramp
60 hour- attemperated @ 81 F
96 hour- gravity 1.017. Halted attemperation
It's free falling now, still active. My question is-
Should I rack now @ 77 F?
Or
Should I at temperate to 65 ( or other) and rack?
Do I give it time to settle the yeast out to lower my carry over to secondary
Or
do I just rack as is and then attemperate it to 65 for aging?
Gritsak,
I too have tasted bubblegum in my samples and was concerned. Did you taste bubblegum in your finished product? I'm hoping it ages out completely.
I've noted more pronounced bubblegum when fermenting over 80F...it doesn't really go away, more mellows a bit.
I've gotten a more classic Westy subtle charred/chocolate banana when holding in the low 70's through high krausen, then ramping over a few days to 78F. Keep in mind pitch rate and O2 levels will influence ester production as well.
g-star said:It can sometimes take this strain several days to get the last few gravity points, often as long as it took to get the first 85%. Pulling it off the yeast now would be a mistake, especially since you started the fermentation incorrectly (pitching hot then cooling down).
Its more important to take clues from your actual progress rather than follow a recipe slavishly. Your ester profile is locked in now, you need to make sure it attenuates fully. 1.017 is way too sweet for this beer.
ultravista said:Took my first gravity reading, 1.020, after nearly 9 days. It's still @ 80F. The off-gassing is approximately 10 seconds apart now.
Maybe a little rock-n-roll of the carboy to get the yeasties moving around again.
The sample tasted great, a very nice flavor there. A little sweet but damned good.
Our current trial is at 017x. The 005 trial back in 2010 called for 7 days primary, and 7 days secondary at 65 and then cellar temps at 55F for 49 days. This was also before we began using FM-15's and the V350MS System for greater control over ramping.
Varying yeast temps to vary the ester profile was our goal then. Westmalle at 65-70F results in a combination of slight spice to grape esters. Higher, (74 - 80F), for darker stone fruit esters, etc. Too high in the range above 84F for banana. We prefer not to get into the range of phenols/banana. I have been told that banana phenols can age-out but have no proof either way.
Then why do the instructions say to raise to 83f and why would BLAM say 82-84f if that gives off esters that are undesirable. I am wondering if the core temperature in the fermentor is almost 3-5 degrees warmer them the glass carboy readings. It just makes sense that that is the issue which is why when you ferment in the high 70s you are actually in the low 80s. When i am at 83f i am actually closer to the 90s. What are your thoughts on that? Oh and i didnt add extra O2 i just shook my carboy and pitched a 3.8L starter(without a stirplate)
I am pretty upset that I got bubblegum for a 60$ batch of beer Belgian pilsner malt is expensive..........
ultravista said:bottlebomber - why not agitate the yeast out of suspension?
Personally I advocate just using a packet of rehydrated champagne yeast which has been allowed to sit in your priming sugar solution for an hour or so. I've done this many times, even bottle conditioning a 16% ABV beer. It works well.mjap52 said:Just want to know if my logic is sound. I've actually never bottle conditioned a beer, so I'm new to this whole thing. Bought two kegs when I got my first setup about 9 months ago.
ultravista said:It's fermenting in a 6.5 gallon carboy. No, not sticking anything inside the beer, just a rolling it on a corner to get a decent swirl going, enough to get the yeast back into suspension.
Why do you say this is not a good idea? What harm can come from it?
I think the temperature *might* be 1-2F hotter in the center of the carboy relative to the sidewalls, but 3-5F seems excessive. I don't think there's any way your thermometer read 83F and the beer was actually at 90F or above, unless the thermometer was bad. Only way to know for sure is to get a thermowell and compare it to the stick-on thermometer readings.
As far as fermenting up in the low to mid 80's, I'm in the minority, but I don't believe commercial processes translate directly to the home bucket/carboy setup. Fermentor geometry plays a role in flavor development, as does headspace/pressure etc. Others differ and claim success at home fermenting this hot, but I have not had good luck going that route...that's how I ended up with excessive bubblegum/hot/solventy notes.
Personally I advocate just using a packet of rehydrated champagne yeast which has been allowed to sit in your priming sugar solution for an hour or so. I've done this many times, even bottle conditioning a 16% ABV beer. It works well.
Our current trial is at 017x. The 005 trial back in 2010 called for 7 days primary, and 7 days secondary at 65 and then cellar temps at 55F for 49 days. This was also before we began using FM-15's and the V350MS System for greater control over ramping.
Varying yeast temps to vary the ester profile was our goal then. Westmalle at 65-70F results in a combination of slight spice to grape esters. Higher, (74 - 80F), for darker stone fruit esters, etc. Too high in the range above 84F for banana. We prefer not to get into the range of phenols/banana. I have been told that banana phenols can age-out but have no proof either way.
Now I just need to decide if I should take bottle conditioning advice from someone's who chose 'bottlebomber' as their username.
But that sounds good. I don't have a bottle bucket, so I'm just going to put my 10 gallons in a sanke keg and bottle with a beer gun. Think one packet with the correct amount of priming sugar will be enough, or should I rehydrate and pitch two?
And I shouldn't have to worry about the champagne yeast eating any of the sugars the westmalle yeast wouldn't eat, right? I finished one batch at 1.012 and the other at 1.011.
mjap52 said:And I shouldn't have to worry about the champagne yeast eating any of the sugars the westmalle yeast wouldn't eat, right? I finished one batch at 1.012 and the other at 1.011.
I am in the high temp camp. I used a 84-86 temp to finish, then a long period at room temp, and then anther 5 weeks in my fridge. The beer took BOS at a Belgian only comp with 90ish entrants. I leave my fermentor open during the first few days of fermentation which helps reduce esters a little from the high temps. I have also gone without aeration and instead gave the Olive oil method a go. The results were very nice with the OO.
klamz said:Wow,
You fermented at 86f? Did you get any banana/bubblegum at this temperature? I dont beleive mine went over 83f and i have a bubblegum bomb tastes like garbage if you ask me. did you just shake the carboy and not add extra O2?
I think that your beer may take a little time and aging but give it a chance. I once fermented an Irish red ale too hot, and it threw all these rotten stone fruit esters, like rotten peaches and apricots. I almost dumped it, but instead I bottled it and forgot about it for 6 months. The esters completely age out and left me with a slightly fruity but quite pleasant beer.
So far what is the closest trial recipe? is it the 005? and how much Oxygen do you recommend after cooling? How many seconds of pure O2?
Do you guys bottle in normal bottles? I was kind of worried about the high level of carbonation in this style and bought some 375ml/750ml Belgian crown bottles.
I'd be sort of interested to bottle condition using 180 candi sugar. I wonder how fermentable it is? In experiments I've done with regular caramelized sugar it is not 100% fermentable.
The CSI 17x recipe lists 29g/gal of Golden Candi Syrup (32 pppg). Corn suguar is about 46 pppg, so that's about 2.1 vol CO2 using 20 g/gal of corn sugar. Standard bottles should be ok.
2.1 volumes seems really low for this style of beer. Granted, I've never had a westy, but I've had St. Bernardus, which from what I understand is quite comparable, and that is certainly more than 2.1 volumes.
Wow,
You fermented at 86f? Did you get any banana/bubblegum at this temperature? I dont beleive mine went over 83f and i have a bubblegum bomb tastes like garbage if you ask me. did you just shake the carboy and not add extra O2?
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