Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

[smokinghole]

Did you dump the entire 3.8L starter or just the yeast? That's approximately 1 gallon.

I call that urinal math. Easiest metric to english customary conversion for me to remember. 3.8L per flush/1 US gal per flush.

 

[Brewskii]

I call that urinal math. Easiest metric to english customary conversion for me to remember. 3.8L per flush/1 US gal per flush.

That's the American Standard

 

[Brewskii]

I'm at 1.017 from a 1.097 now at 4 days from pitch. I realized I've loosely followed the fermentation profile ( chasing it around a bit)... To summarize;

0 hour- 2 min o2 and pitched at 75 F ramped Down to 62
24 hour- began to let free rise
48 hour- peaked at 71 F began to heat ramp
60 hour- attemperated @ 81 F
96 hour- gravity 1.017. Halted attemperation

It's free falling now, still active. My question is-
Should I rack now @ 77 F?

Or

Should I at temperate to 65 ( or other) and rack?

Do I give it time to settle the yeast out to lower my carry over to secondary

Or

do I just rack as is and then attemperate it to 65 for aging?

 

[klamz]

The westmalle yeast produces a chocolate banana kind of flavor to varying degrees across the temperature profile, its fairly subtle and compliments well with fig/date kinds of characters it makes that are also present from the grist/candi syrup. Don't worry about your fermentation time to FG unless its going really long, but you will want to let it sit and condition per the guidelines outlined in this thread.

Ok,

today its at 1.012 and im tasting some bubblegum and banana and a lot of other flavors but im not too happy about the banana bubblegum combo. I am pretty sure i didnt go over 83f and if i did it wasnt for more than 2-3 hours. I am hoping it fades in the background in 6 months. Did you get these flavors too when sampling? I just want to know if i am on the right track or if i did something wrong.

 

[klamz]

Anyone pick up bubblegum flavors with this? I'm about 8 days since brewing, held the fermentation temps at 81-82 for the suggested time and i'm down to 1.015. Taste is very good, but the bubblegum flavor is much more pronounced than my last sample a few days ago. Krausen dropped, but still a lot of yeast in suspension. As of now i'm leaving it at ambient, which is around 70.

Gritsak,

I too have tasted bubblegum in my samples and was concerned. Did you taste bubblegum in your finished product? I'm hoping it ages out completely.

 

[edroberts]

I'm at 1.017 from a 1.097 now at 4 days from pitch. I realized I've loosely followed the fermentation profile ( chasing it around a bit)... To summarize;

0 hour- 2 min o2 and pitched at 75 F ramped Down to 62
24 hour- began to let free rise
48 hour- peaked at 71 F began to heat ramp
60 hour- attemperated @ 81 F
96 hour- gravity 1.017. Halted attemperation

It's free falling now, still active. My question is-
Should I rack now @ 77 F?

Or

Should I at temperate to 65 ( or other) and rack?

Do I give it time to settle the yeast out to lower my carry over to secondary

Or

do I just rack as is and then attemperate it to 65 for aging?

Is it really THAT important to rack to secondary in less than a week? I rarely take higher gravity beers out of primary less than two weeks in. I usually give the yeast time to do some clean-up after active fermentation. Does racking that early help preserve the ester profiles essential to this beer, or is it simply due to impatience?

 

[g-star]

I'm at 1.017 from a 1.097 now at 4 days from pitch. I realized I've loosely followed the fermentation profile ( chasing it around a bit)... To summarize;

0 hour- 2 min o2 and pitched at 75 F ramped Down to 62
24 hour- began to let free rise
48 hour- peaked at 71 F began to heat ramp
60 hour- attemperated @ 81 F
96 hour- gravity 1.017. Halted attemperation

It's free falling now, still active. My question is-
Should I rack now @ 77 F?

Or

Should I at temperate to 65 ( or other) and rack?

Do I give it time to settle the yeast out to lower my carry over to secondary

Or

do I just rack as is and then attemperate it to 65 for aging?

It can sometimes take this strain several days to get the last few gravity points, often as long as it took to get the first 85%. Pulling it off the yeast now would be a mistake, especially since you started the fermentation incorrectly (pitching hot then cooling down).

Its more important to take clues from your actual progress rather than follow a recipe slavishly. Your ester profile is locked in now, you need to make sure it attenuates fully. 1.017 is way too sweet for this beer.

 

[g-star]

Gritsak,

I too have tasted bubblegum in my samples and was concerned. Did you taste bubblegum in your finished product? I'm hoping it ages out completely.

I've noted more pronounced bubblegum when fermenting over 80F...it doesn't really go away, more mellows a bit.

I've gotten a more classic Westy subtle charred/chocolate banana when holding in the low 70's through high krausen, then ramping over a few days to 78F. Keep in mind pitch rate and O2 levels will influence ester production as well.

 

[klamz]

I've noted more pronounced bubblegum when fermenting over 80F...it doesn't really go away, more mellows a bit.

I've gotten a more classic Westy subtle charred/chocolate banana when holding in the low 70's through high krausen, then ramping over a few days to 78F. Keep in mind pitch rate and O2 levels will influence ester production as well.

Then why do the instructions say to raise to 83f and why would BLAM say 82-84f if that gives off esters that are undesirable. I am wondering if the core temperature in the fermentor is almost 3-5 degrees warmer them the glass carboy readings. It just makes sense that that is the issue which is why when you ferment in the high 70s you are actually in the low 80s. When i am at 83f i am actually closer to the 90s. What are your thoughts on that? Oh and i didnt add extra O2 i just shook my carboy and pitched a 3.8L starter(without a stirplate)

I am pretty upset that I got bubblegum for a 60$ batch of beer Belgian pilsner malt is expensive..........

 

[Brewskii]

It can sometimes take this strain several days to get the last few gravity points, often as long as it took to get the first 85%. Pulling it off the yeast now would be a mistake, especially since you started the fermentation incorrectly (pitching hot then cooling down).

Its more important to take clues from your actual progress rather than follow a recipe slavishly. Your ester profile is locked in now, you need to make sure it attenuates fully. 1.017 is way too sweet for this beer.

I know it's not attenuated... I'm trying to understand when saq and CSI say that you should cool/ rack at 1.020 what is the thought process? At this point it still has a way to go to finish and flock out. Are you getting off the hot yeast to let the yeast in suspension finish the ferm and clean up or what?

I'm past that point now so I suppose I'm going to hold it where it is ( upper 70s) and wait for it to finish before cooling and then I'll rack it to a secondary and 'lager' it in the mid 60's ( from BLAM) for a couple months.

Yea, I f'd up on pitch. Im going to resolve that issue for future batch's. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[ultravista]

Took my first gravity reading, 1.020, after nearly 9 days. It's still @ 80F. The off-gassing is approximately 10 seconds apart now.

Maybe a little rock-n-roll of the carboy to get the yeasties moving around again.

The sample tasted great, a very nice flavor there. A little sweet but damned good.

100*(1.094-1.020)/(1.094-1)=78.72% - is this the correct attenuation formula?

If so, I'm at 78% already. Per White Labs, Attenuation for this strain is 75-80%.

 

[bottlebomber]

Took my first gravity reading, 1.020, after nearly 9 days. It's still @ 80F. The off-gassing is approximately 10 seconds apart now.

Maybe a little rock-n-roll of the carboy to get the yeasties moving around again.

The sample tasted great, a very nice flavor there. A little sweet but damned good.

I wouldn't do that. In the past, to encourage beers to dry out a little I've taken a cup of sugar an boiled it for 5 minutes and added it to the beer and raised the temperature to encourage the yeast into a little more activity. You may try something like that. But I think if you're patient it will come down.

 

[hbr2547]

It's interesting because mine is right at 1.012 and it tastes dry. Tasted a hydro sample and seemed dry - maybe hot? I could taste many flavors but dry or hot. I'm probably not expressing the flavors correctly but nothing like expected...will aging bring out sweetness? Any way to back sweeten if it tastes like thi prior to bottling in 4 mths?

 

[klamz]

Our current trial is at 017x. The 005 trial back in 2010 called for 7 days primary, and 7 days secondary at 65 and then cellar temps at 55F for 49 days. This was also before we began using FM-15's and the V350MS System for greater control over ramping.

Varying yeast temps to vary the ester profile was our goal then. Westmalle at 65-70F results in a combination of slight spice to grape esters. Higher, (74 - 80F), for darker stone fruit esters, etc. Too high in the range above 84F for banana. We prefer not to get into the range of phenols/banana. I have been told that banana phenols can age-out but have no proof either way.

How much oxygen are you adding to the wort before pitching? Is just shaking the carboy enough? it seems to have been with me fermenting from 1.080 -> 1.010 in 3 days.

 

[ultravista]

bottlebomber - why not agitate the yeast out of suspension?

 

[g-star]

Then why do the instructions say to raise to 83f and why would BLAM say 82-84f if that gives off esters that are undesirable. I am wondering if the core temperature in the fermentor is almost 3-5 degrees warmer them the glass carboy readings. It just makes sense that that is the issue which is why when you ferment in the high 70s you are actually in the low 80s. When i am at 83f i am actually closer to the 90s. What are your thoughts on that? Oh and i didnt add extra O2 i just shook my carboy and pitched a 3.8L starter(without a stirplate)

I am pretty upset that I got bubblegum for a 60$ batch of beer Belgian pilsner malt is expensive..........

I think the temperature *might* be 1-2F hotter in the center of the carboy relative to the sidewalls, but 3-5F seems excessive. I don't think there's any way your thermometer read 83F and the beer was actually at 90F or above, unless the thermometer was bad. Only way to know for sure is to get a thermowell and compare it to the stick-on thermometer readings.

As far as fermenting up in the low to mid 80's, I'm in the minority, but I don't believe commercial processes translate directly to the home bucket/carboy setup. Fermentor geometry plays a role in flavor development, as does headspace/pressure etc. Others differ and claim success at home fermenting this hot, but I have not had good luck going that route...that's how I ended up with excessive bubblegum/hot/solventy notes.

 

[bottlebomber]

bottlebomber - why not agitate the yeast out of suspension?

Unless you're going to do it with CO2, I'm guessing your method is going to involve sticking something in your fermenter or shaking it around. Neither one of those is going to benefit your beer. You pitched less yeast than advised, so your beer may just take a bit longer to finish. The best thing is just to leave it alone.

 

[mjap52]

I'm bottling 10 gallons this week once my belgian bottles crown cap bottles come in. I harvested yeast from this and want to repitch that after doing a starter, cold crashing and decanting. Thoughts on the size of the starter? I don't have a stir plate.

CSI's recipe says to do a 500ml stir plate starter. Yeastcalc.com says that a new packet with a 500ml stir plate starter will get me about 167bil yeast cells. Doing a 1500ml starter should get me a similar amount. I'm planning on doing two 1500ml starters (side by side), cold crashing, decanting and repitching as I bottle with my priming sugar.

Just want to know if my logic is sound. I've actually never bottle conditioned a beer, so I'm new to this whole thing. Bought two kegs when I got my first setup about 9 months ago.

 

[bottlebomber]

Just want to know if my logic is sound. I've actually never bottle conditioned a beer, so I'm new to this whole thing. Bought two kegs when I got my first setup about 9 months ago.

Personally I advocate just using a packet of rehydrated champagne yeast which has been allowed to sit in your priming sugar solution for an hour or so. I've done this many times, even bottle conditioning a 16% ABV beer. It works well.

 

[ultravista]

It's fermenting in a 6.5 gallon carboy. No, not sticking anything inside the beer, just a rolling it on a corner to get a decent swirl going, enough to get the yeast back into suspension.

Why do you say this is not a good idea? What harm can come from it?

 

[bottlebomber]

It's fermenting in a 6.5 gallon carboy. No, not sticking anything inside the beer, just a rolling it on a corner to get a decent swirl going, enough to get the yeast back into suspension.

Why do you say this is not a good idea? What harm can come from it?

Because if you're sloshing it around you are (likely unnecessarily) oxygenating the beer. Some big beers benefit from oxygenation noted but in my experience Belgians are definitely not among them. Swirling the yeast cake around is not going to magically jump start fermentation. Raising the temp and adding a little sugar can though, I've used the trick successfully in a stuck wee heavy and a stuck Barleywine.

 

[klamz]

I think the temperature *might* be 1-2F hotter in the center of the carboy relative to the sidewalls, but 3-5F seems excessive. I don't think there's any way your thermometer read 83F and the beer was actually at 90F or above, unless the thermometer was bad. Only way to know for sure is to get a thermowell and compare it to the stick-on thermometer readings.

As far as fermenting up in the low to mid 80's, I'm in the minority, but I don't believe commercial processes translate directly to the home bucket/carboy setup. Fermentor geometry plays a role in flavor development, as does headspace/pressure etc. Others differ and claim success at home fermenting this hot, but I have not had good luck going that route...that's how I ended up with excessive bubblegum/hot/solventy notes.

Do we know how much pure O2 is required for this recipe? I must have missed that in the beginning somewhere. im only getting 8ppm by shaking and wondering if that could give me the wrong ester production.

 

[mjap52]

Personally I advocate just using a packet of rehydrated champagne yeast which has been allowed to sit in your priming sugar solution for an hour or so. I've done this many times, even bottle conditioning a 16% ABV beer. It works well.

Now I just need to decide if I should take bottle conditioning advice from someone's who chose 'bottlebomber' as their username.

But that sounds good. I don't have a bottle bucket, so I'm just going to put my 10 gallons in a sanke keg and bottle with a beer gun. Think one packet with the correct amount of priming sugar will be enough, or should I rehydrate and pitch two?

And I shouldn't have to worry about the champagne yeast eating any of the sugars the westmalle yeast wouldn't eat, right? I finished one batch at 1.012 and the other at 1.011.

 

[klamz]

Our current trial is at 017x. The 005 trial back in 2010 called for 7 days primary, and 7 days secondary at 65 and then cellar temps at 55F for 49 days. This was also before we began using FM-15's and the V350MS System for greater control over ramping.

Varying yeast temps to vary the ester profile was our goal then. Westmalle at 65-70F results in a combination of slight spice to grape esters. Higher, (74 - 80F), for darker stone fruit esters, etc. Too high in the range above 84F for banana. We prefer not to get into the range of phenols/banana. I have been told that banana phenols can age-out but have no proof either way.

So far what is the closest trial recipe? is it the 005? and how much Oxygen do you recommend after cooling? How many seconds of pure O2?

 

[DSmith]

Now I just need to decide if I should take bottle conditioning advice from someone's who chose 'bottlebomber' as their username.

But that sounds good. I don't have a bottle bucket, so I'm just going to put my 10 gallons in a sanke keg and bottle with a beer gun. Think one packet with the correct amount of priming sugar will be enough, or should I rehydrate and pitch two?

And I shouldn't have to worry about the champagne yeast eating any of the sugars the westmalle yeast wouldn't eat, right? I finished one batch at 1.012 and the other at 1.011.

I've developed this simple calculation/procedure for reyeasting with dry yeast for 1 million cells / 1 mL of finished beer. I've used Larvin EC-1118 yeast without it changing the final gravity of a fully fermented Belgian ale. Per the calculation below, you'd be fine with (1) 5 gram packet of rehydrated dry yeast for 10 gallons.

Re-yeasting Procedures:

Yeasting dosing rate: 1 million cells/1 mL of finished beer.

20.0e9 yeast cells/gram of dry yeast.
10 gal = 37,854 mL
1.0e6 = 20.0e9*x/37,854, x = 1.9 grams of dry yeast

Boil 8 oz of Spring Water in 4 qt measuring cup in microwave, cover with plastic wrap and chill to 80F in water bath.
Sprinkle 3.8g (1.9g X 2) dry yeast on water surface and cover with plastic wrap, let sit for 15 min.
(Note: Measure by weighing full package and add gradually and keep weighing)
Stir (swirl) yeast, pitch 50% of prepared yeast into bottling bucket during the transfer.

EDIT: I double the prepared yeast & water to make the measurements a little easier and only pitch half...I do smaller batches than 10 gal. You could use 4 oz of water and 1.9g of yeast.

 

[bottlebomber]

And I shouldn't have to worry about the champagne yeast eating any of the sugars the westmalle yeast wouldn't eat, right? I finished one batch at 1.012 and the other at 1.011.

Nope, that's part of why I like it. Champagne yeast doesn't seem to be particularly interested in maltose, and it will really go for the added sucrose. I would be more worried about adding some fresh vital 530 than the champ yeast.

Oh and for the record I haven't bombed anything

 

[mjap52]

Thank you very much!

 

[klamz]

I am in the high temp camp. I used a 84-86 temp to finish, then a long period at room temp, and then anther 5 weeks in my fridge. The beer took BOS at a Belgian only comp with 90ish entrants. I leave my fermentor open during the first few days of fermentation which helps reduce esters a little from the high temps. I have also gone without aeration and instead gave the Olive oil method a go. The results were very nice with the OO.

Wow,

You fermented at 86f? Did you get any banana/bubblegum at this temperature? I dont beleive mine went over 83f and i have a bubblegum bomb tastes like garbage if you ask me. did you just shake the carboy and not add extra O2?

 

[bottlebomber]

Wow,

You fermented at 86f? Did you get any banana/bubblegum at this temperature? I dont beleive mine went over 83f and i have a bubblegum bomb tastes like garbage if you ask me. did you just shake the carboy and not add extra O2?

I think that your beer may take a little time and aging but give it a chance. I once fermented an Irish red ale too hot, and it threw all these rotten stone fruit esters, like rotten peaches and apricots. I almost dumped it, but instead I bottled it and forgot about it for 6 months. The esters completely age out and left me with a slightly fruity but quite pleasant beer.

 

[klamz]

I think that your beer may take a little time and aging but give it a chance. I once fermented an Irish red ale too hot, and it threw all these rotten stone fruit esters, like rotten peaches and apricots. I almost dumped it, but instead I bottled it and forgot about it for 6 months. The esters completely age out and left me with a slightly fruity but quite pleasant beer.

Ok thanks BB. I am certainly not going to dump it but its frustrating to not know what the out come will be like until 6 months from now I made a Hefe with wlp380 and it smelled like pure bubblegum and it never aged out. Not sure if i have high hopes for this one. I am already planning to rebrew it.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

So far what is the closest trial recipe? is it the 005? and how much Oxygen do you recommend after cooling? How many seconds of pure O2?

005 was the aged trial posted recently, (brewed over 2 years ago). A truly great ale to be sure but the 017x (online now) is the 'recension' of everything we have learned about brewing this ale to date. Some of the updates like switching back to Northern Brewer were partner votes while sitting in front of a taste test of a genuine W12 and 9 brew aged trials we have done. I think the O2 duration is listed in 017x.

Please make sure and reference our help docs on decoction and pitching rates under: http://www.candisyrup.com/help-docs.html

 

[ultravista]

CSI - for the 17x version, as a single infusion mash, do you recommend any specialty malts to aid in the flavor profile absent from the non-decoction schedule?

 

[mjap52]

Do you guys bottle in normal bottles? I was kind of worried about the high level of carbonation in this style and bought some 375ml/750ml Belgian crown bottles.

 

[DSmith]

Do you guys bottle in normal bottles? I was kind of worried about the high level of carbonation in this style and bought some 375ml/750ml Belgian crown bottles.

The CSI 17x recipe lists 29g/gal of Golden Candi Syrup (32 pppg). Corn suguar is about 46 pppg, so that's about 2.1 vol CO2 using 20 g/gal of corn sugar. Standard bottles should be ok.

 

[bottlebomber]

I'd be sort of interested to bottle condition using 180 candi sugar. I wonder how fermentable it is? In experiments I've done with regular caramelized sugar it is not 100% fermentable.

 

[mjap52]

I'd be sort of interested to bottle condition using 180 candi sugar. I wonder how fermentable it is? In experiments I've done with regular caramelized sugar it is not 100% fermentable.

I think I read on CSI's site that their candi sugar is significantly more fermentable than caramelized sugar. Something to do with the process that they make it with.

I guess I'll stick to CSI's recipe and use simplicity candi sugar, but repitch with rehydrated champagne yeast.

 

[mjap52]

The CSI 17x recipe lists 29g/gal of Golden Candi Syrup (32 pppg). Corn suguar is about 46 pppg, so that's about 2.1 vol CO2 using 20 g/gal of corn sugar. Standard bottles should be ok.

2.1 volumes seems really low for this style of beer. Granted, I've never had a westy, but I've had St. Bernardus, which from what I understand is quite comparable, and that is certainly more than 2.1 volumes.

 

[DSmith]

2.1 volumes seems really low for this style of beer. Granted, I've never had a westy, but I've had St. Bernardus, which from what I understand is quite comparable, and that is certainly more than 2.1 volumes.

I just was doing the math from the information available. It would be nice to get some input from Westy 12 repeat brewers.

I'm brewing the CSI Westmalle Dubbel and they state a similar carbonation as the Westy 12. I'm planning on picking up the commercial beer as a check in that case before bottling.

 

[smokinghole]

Wow,

You fermented at 86f? Did you get any banana/bubblegum at this temperature? I dont beleive mine went over 83f and i have a bubblegum bomb tastes like garbage if you ask me. did you just shake the carboy and not add extra O2?

I didn't ferment the whole time at 86. After about two days of open fermentation I closed the fermentor and then upped the temp to 86 to finish up. It did not taste like bubblegum but did have a burnt banana type flavor.

 

[rexbanner]

I'll be brewing a slightly different version of the old world for my nano, with the addition of a little bit of chocolate malt and aromatic, and also elderberries. If you are brewing at home, a very helpful addition is a cheap aquarium heater so you can ramp up the temperature. If you let it start at 64 for the first day and quickly ramp it up to 82 by day three, you will have a very nice beer. Properly made, there will be no off-flavors that need to age out.

I'd like to thank CSI and the folks at Candi Syrup Inc for a great product and phenomenal customer service. I'll be using your D-90 in my year-round dubbel as well, and also your golden in my sour tripel.