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The Patriots Cheated?!?

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Here is a timeline of events so far:

Sunday, Sept. 9: During the Patriots-Jets season opener, security officers seize a video camera a team official on the New England sideline was using to film signal-calling on the New York sideline. NFL rules forbid filming the opponents' sideline or recording opponents' signal calling. Clubs had been reminded of this prohibition by a strongly worded directive sent from league headquarters in September 2006.


Thursday, Sept. 13: Commissioner Goodell declares the Patriots guilty of "a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid long-standing rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field." He imposes on New England the strongest penalty in NFL history: loss of a first-round pick (if the Pats make the playoffs), or second- and third-round choices in the 2008 draft (if New England fails to reach the postseason); a $500,000 personal fine against Belichick; and a $250,000 club fine. Goodell orders the Patriots to turn over all videotapes and other materials obtained in violation of NFL rules, although this part of his decision is not publicly announced.



Sunday morning, Sept. 16: On ESPN, Chris Mortensen reports Goodell's directive that the Patriots surrender all videotapes and notes containing cheating materials.



Sunday evening, Sept. 16: On NBC's "Football Night in America," Goodell says New England has not yet complied with his order to surrender all illegal materials, adding the Patriots will be penalized more if the materials don't arrive soon.



Monday, Sept. 17: Asked whether he will surrender videotapes and notes to the league, Belichick answers, "Of course." Asked by The Boston Globe whether NFL headquarters has received the Patriots' materials, Aiello answers, "We don't have anything else on the matter to report right now."



Sometime between Monday night, Sept. 17, and Thursday afternoon, Sept. 20: The New England materials arrive at league headquarters.



Thursday night, Sept. 20: The NFL announces all of the Patriots' materials have been destroyed, disclosing nothing about their contents.



The history of scandals teaches us that when the point is reached that everything has come out, then the principals apologize in public and tell all. When the point has not yet been reached that everything has come out, there is usually stonewalling, denial and weird Nixonian/Clintonesque statements. The destruction of evidence and the lack of answers about what the evidence contained, leaves me wondering if there is something very important about the Patriots' spying scandal that has not yet come out.
 

Dude

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Isn't this cheating too?

Colvin, 30, left the 31-28 victory over the Eagles and did not return. Although the announcement was that he had a foot injury, it appeared trainers were working on his arm.
"It was announced as a foot? Then we'll leave it with that announcement," coach Bill Belichick said Monday, according to the transcript of the news conference released by the team. "Was that what [we] announced? If that's what [we] announced, then we'll stand by that announcement."

IMHO, from what I know about the NFL policy on reporting injuries, Belicheat might as well go back to making video tapes of hand signals. This is as blatant cheating as that was. How does the league not do anything about this?
 

the_bird

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Dude said:
Isn't this cheating too?




IMHO, from what I know about the NFL policy on reporting injuries, Belicheat might as well go back to making video tapes of hand signals. This is as blatant cheating as that was. How does the league not do anything about this?
Who cares? He's out for the season (placed him on IR today and activated Troy Brown), what difference does it make?
 

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the_bird said:
Who cares? He's out for the season (placed him on IR today and activated Troy Brown), what difference does it make?
It is the principle. Why say it was one thing originally, and then go back on that? It is just shady.

Of course I wouldn't expect anything less from Beliweasel. :rolleyes:
 
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Evan!

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Damn, I had no idea Cheatichek was all smoke-and-mirrors with the injury reports too. That's effed up. No matter how you feel towards the pats, there's obviously some ethical issues within that organization that need to be addressed, whether it be by the league or by the front office.
 

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Belichick just got caught and others haven't. That's about the only thing separating him from 90% of the other coaches. Well, that and his unbeatable team...
 
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Evan!

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Soulive21 said:
Belichick just got caught and others haven't. That's about the only thing separating him from 90% of the other coaches. Well, that and his unbeatable team...
I suppose that makes it okay then...:rolleyes:
 

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Evan! said:
I suppose that makes it okay then...:rolleyes:
Absolutely not, I'm just saying he's the scapegoat/whipping boy lately. Notice how not too many other coaches are bashing him...
 

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It's at the core of Belichick's philisophy to not show your cards unless you absolutely have to. That's why he talks to the media as little as he can get away with. That's why he coaches all of his players to be extremely gaurded in the things that THEY say to the media (you never hear any of the Pats speaking out of turn). That's how it's always been, and frankly, I don't see the problem. The information is available (you can look and see if a player was favoring his foot or his arm when he came off the field), why should Belichick just GIVE IT to the other guy so he doesn't have to work for it?

Besides, you ever stop to think that Rosie might have had a f*cked up arm AND a foot? I can easily see him having a hurt arm, but continuing to play with it (hell, Bruschi played the mike with a broken arm a couple years ago). A foot injury, though, is harder to deal with (gotta be able to run to play).
 

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Soulive21 said:
Absolutely not, I'm just saying he's the scapegoat/whipping boy lately. Notice how not too many other coaches are bashing him...
I thought it was VERY telling how, in the heart of "spygate," Brian Billick made it a point to talk about how he thought Mangini was "cheating" in the Ravens/Jets game... very pointed.
 

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the_bird said:
I thought it was VERY telling how, in the heart of "spygate," Brian Billick made it a point to talk about how he thought Mangini was "cheating" in the Ravens/Jets game... very pointed.
Yup. Most of the coaches would be hypocritical to criticize Belichick only. I'm sure they all respect the $hit out of him as well...
 
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Evan!

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Soulive21 said:
Absolutely not, I'm just saying he's the scapegoat/whipping boy lately. Notice how not too many other coaches are bashing him...
Anecdotal evidence and assumptive guesses are worthless, to be honest. He got caught cheating, and in other instances, he is riding the line between ethical and unethical. These are documented cases. Other coaches MAY be doing the same thing, but I have yet to see much evidence to that point. And believe me, if another coach got caught cheating, they'd catch hell too. Yes, Cheatichek is in the spotlight because his team is superhuman, but that doesn't mean that everyone else gets a free pass. As for why not too many other coaches are "bashing" him, perhaps that's because some NFL organizations have class...and their coaches have better things to do (like, um, coaching football) than attack other coaches.
 

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Evan! said:
Anecdotal evidence and assumptive guesses are worthless, to be honest. He got caught cheating, and in other instances, he is riding the line between ethical and unethical. These are documented cases. Other coaches MAY be doing the same thing, but I have yet to see much evidence to that point. And believe me, if another coach got caught cheating, they'd catch hell too. Yes, Cheatichek is in the spotlight because his team is superhuman, but that doesn't mean that everyone else gets a free pass. As for why not too many other coaches are "bashing" him, perhaps that's because some NFL organizations have class...and their coaches have better things to do (like, um, coaching football) than attack other coaches.
Not bashing him is out of respect and conscience. I just don't see it coming from trying to maintain class. I agree that Belichick has been proven to cheat, but I think they need to start scrutinizing other teams. I dunno, I just don't want to see the players discredited for Belichick's controversies...
 

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If you want to talk about CHEATING, let's talk about the Denver Broncos. How many years have they been teaching their offensive linemen to legwhip and chop block? How many players have gotten seriously injured as a result? One of the Pats linemen was seriously injured a few years back, and he was neither the first nor the last one. That's an instance of a good team with a very well-documented history of performing blocks that's not only illegal, but extremely dangerous. There have also been a lot of defensive players who have admitted to being hesitant when they play the Broncos because they know their linemen cheat and they don't want to get injured; you think that might be a reason they can put basically anyone off the street in the backfield and they'll gain 1,000 yards?

Now, that's just one example of a team where there's a whole lotta evidence that they don't PLAY above-board. But, it's something that only gets attention when someone gets hurt, and certainly it doesn't get as much attention as it would if the Pats did that.

EDIT: It was Bryan Cox, in 2001. I'm firmly convinced that Cox is one of the key reasons that Patriots came out of nowhere in '01, he was arguably our most valuable player for much of that season (until he was taken out).
 

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I thought that since the Eagles found the blueprints in Belichek's basement all the piling on was over.

As for the injury report, this is old news. The Pats routinely provide as little information on injuries as possible. Also, Tom Brady has been listed as probable every single week for the past 4 years. I really don't see the big deal here.
 

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OK, off topic but two observations of last week's game:

-How come the (almost) full audio of Brady on the line? How many times did we hear him call 69, 69 (Runyan) before the snap?

-Loved the angry WTF look on Brady's face as he got up after the sacks...
 

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kinison_fan said:
OK, off topic but two observations of last week's game:

-How come the (almost) full audio of Brady on the line? How many times did we hear him call 69, 69 (Runyan) before the snap?

-Loved the angry WTF look on Brady's face as he got up after the sacks...
I'm pretty sure that when he calls "Omaha," that means that they snap the ball on the next sound. I suppose they need to pass a rule so that defenses can't pay attention and act on that information... :rolleyes:
 
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the_bird said:
I'm pretty sure that when he calls "Omaha," that means that they snap the ball on the next sound. I suppose they need to pass a rule so that defenses can't pay attention and act on that information... :rolleyes:
From what I understand, Patriot D-Linemen were wired up so they could record audibles for later study.
 

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olllllo said:
From what I understand, Patriot D-Linemen were wired up so they could record audibles for later study.
There was speculation about that, but no evidence that I heard. Hell, why not just have an assistant coach stand at the line of scrimmage with a notebook?

I just don't get it... if a team's not smart enough to disguise its signals well, or its players aren't smart enough to handle having a couple sets of signals or some false audibles or whathaveyou... why should the opposing team not be able to take advantage of that? I've never understood why, in football or baseball, "stealing signals" is such an ethical problem. You don't want them stolen? DISGUISE THEM BETTER!
 
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the_bird said:
There was speculation about that, but no evidence that I heard. Hell, why not just have an assistant coach stand at the line of scrimmage with a notebook?
Evidence was destroyed by the NFL...
Convenient.
 

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olllllo said:
Evidence was destroyed by the NFL...
Convenient.
... and there's a lot of speculation that the evidence was destroyed because it showed that LOTS and LOTS of other teams cheated, as well. You think Belichick might have some notes on counter-espionage?

Convenient for the league to do what it can to save 32 teams, even if it meant throwing one under the bus.
 

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Will it not be glorious when the winless dolphins play the patriots and pull out a win?
 

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the_bird said:
I've never understood why, in football or baseball, "stealing signals" is such an ethical problem. You don't want them stolen? DISGUISE THEM BETTER!
Yeah, I don't particularly understand this either. If the runner on second or the D-linemen can figure out what the signals mean, I'm not sure how that is cheating. Same thing if a batter can tell a pitcher is tipping his pitches. That stuff is all part of the game to me.
 
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Evan!

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the_bird said:
I just don't get it... if a team's not smart enough to disguise its signals well, or its players aren't smart enough to handle having a couple sets of signals or some false audibles or whathaveyou... why should the opposing team not be able to take advantage of that? I've never understood why, in football or baseball, "stealing signals" is such an ethical problem. You don't want them stolen? DISGUISE THEM BETTER!
I've got no problem with teams reading or "stealing" signals. What I've got a problem with is when they use technology like digital recording devices to do so. In kind, I have no problem with someone hitting 80 home runs, but I do have a problem with them hitting 80 home runs because their bat was corked or their veins were juiced up.
 

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I recently hit my eff. of 80% and i was juiced up on homebrew. You gotta problem with that too?!!:drunk:


I agree with the barry bonds reference.
 

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Evan! said:
I've got no problem with teams reading or "stealing" signals. What I've got a problem with is when they use technology like digital recording devices to do so. In kind, I have no problem with someone hitting 80 home runs, but I do have a problem with them hitting 80 home runs because their bat was corked or their veins were juiced up.
I agree to a point, but it's a gray area.

*IF* there were mikes on the defensive linemen, that's over the line.

What about if they take the TV signal and digitally enhance the audio to pick up on what the opposing QB is saying? Or, if they can read the QB's lips because of the HD signal?

Does it matter if they use the network feed, or if they set up a separate camera up in the coaches' box?

What if, instead of a player being miked, it's a random coach standing on the line of scrimmage with a notebook?

What if, instead of a coach standing at the end of the line, when players rotate out, they tell that coach everything that they remembered hearing before the play?

Where's the line?
 
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Evan!

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Reverend JC said:
I recently hit my eff. of 80% and i was juiced up on homebrew. You gotta problem with that too?!!:drunk:
No probalo...

but we WILL need to put a * next to your name in the Homebrew HOF. :D
 

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The Pats just got caught, that's all. It seems like the commissioner suspected everyone was doing it anyways and sent a nice little 'don't do that' memo.

My personal view is that if you're cheating, you're playing to win. You don't have to cheat to win but you've got to push the line sometimes to get that edge. The coaches cover their mouths already when calling plays so the opposing team doesn't read their lips. You just can't record anything but you're allowed to look all you want to. There's millions and millions of dollars at stake on every game, you know both sides are doing their best to give themselves every advantage they can.


I see it like card counting in Vegas. Sure it's against the rules but how many people would actually NOT do it if they had that ability?
 

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the_bird said:
It's at the core of Belichick's philisophy to not show your cards unless you absolutely have to. That's why he talks to the media as little as he can get away with. That's why he coaches all of his players to be extremely gaurded in the things that THEY say to the media (you never hear any of the Pats speaking out of turn). That's how it's always been, and frankly, I don't see the problem. The information is available (you can look and see if a player was favoring his foot or his arm when he came off the field), why should Belichick just GIVE IT to the other guy so he doesn't have to work for it?
Because it is an NFL rule. He tiptoes the line of it being illegal.

the_bird said:
If you want to talk about CHEATING, let's talk about the Denver Broncos. How many years have they been teaching their offensive linemen to legwhip and chop block? How many players have gotten seriously injured as a result? One of the Pats linemen was seriously injured a few years back, and he was neither the first nor the last one. That's an instance of a good team with a very well-documented history of performing blocks that's not only illegal, but extremely dangerous. There have also been a lot of defensive players who have admitted to being hesitant when they play the Broncos because they know their linemen cheat and they don't want to get injured; you think that might be a reason they can put basically anyone off the street in the backfield and they'll gain 1,000 yards?

Now, that's just one example of a team where there's a whole lotta evidence that they don't PLAY above-board. But, it's something that only gets attention when someone gets hurt, and certainly it doesn't get as much attention as it would if the Pats did that.

EDIT: It was Bryan Cox, in 2001. I'm firmly convinced that Cox is one of the key reasons that Patriots came out of nowhere in '01, he was arguably our most valuable player for much of that season (until he was taken out).
Do you think if it was illegal, the league would have sent out a memo? Know why they didn't? Because it isn't illegal. It is the basis of the zone blocking scheme developed by Alex Gibbs. Quite a few other teams use it now too, Atlanta and Green Bay for starters.

You are grasping at straws to gear the attention away from what Belicheat does year after year. He got caught, and he still continues to sway over the line of ethics. He is a CHEATER, plain and simple.
 

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Dude said:
Do you think if it was illegal, the league would have sent out a memo? Know why they didn't? Because it isn't illegal. It is the basis of the zone blocking scheme developed by Alex Gibbs. Quite a few other teams use it now too, Atlanta and Green Bay for starters.
Chop blocking isn't illegal?

You might want to Google that... cut blocking is OK, chop blocking ain't. A quick summary:

There is a gray area between the legal cut block and the illegal chop block. The cut block occurs when a player (usually an offensive lineman) blocks another (usually a defensive lineman) below the knees with his helmet in front of the player. The chop block occurs when the same block comes from the side or the back, or when the defensive player is engaged with another offensive player and therefore defenseless.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/31/Sports/Stop_the_chop_Broncos.shtml
 

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TheJadedDog said:
Don't players get fined if they are caught chop-blocking? Wouldn't that mean it is illegal?
Yup. I'd argue that they ought to be suspended.

I was just using the Broncos as another example of a team that is VERY widely known to consistently engage in illegal practices (in this cases, practices that can end a player's career; I don't think Bryan Cox ever really came back). Yet, no one seems to care, at least until one of their guys gets taken out.

It seems that half the posters here are advocating for some third-string defender to hit Brady with a cheap shot and knock him out. Where's the consistency there?
 
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the_bird said:
Yup. I'd argue that they ought to be suspended.

I was just using the Broncos as another example of a team that is VERY widely known to consistently engage in illegal practices (in this cases, practices that can end a player's career; I don't think Bryan Cox ever really came back). Yet, no one seems to care, at least until one of their guys gets taken out.

It seems that half the posters here are advocating for some third-string defender to hit Brady with a cheap shot and knock him out. Where's the consistency there?
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I say that with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Actually, my dream scenario is for them to either lose to the fins or go 16-0 and lose in the first round. I don't wish physical harm on anyone. It's just football, ferchrissakes. But I will say that I care a little less when the ones who get hurt are cheaters or belligerent douches like Mike Irvin who act like the field is their own private dance club every time they make a 3-yard catch. It's just kinda...karma.
 

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the_bird said:
Chop blocking isn't illegal?

You might want to Google that... cut blocking is OK, chop blocking ain't. A quick summary:



http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/31/Sports/Stop_the_chop_Broncos.shtml
If it was illegal, they refs would throw flags. I never said a chop block was legal. I said what the Broncos do WAS legal. You aren't seeing the big picture. If it was illegal the league would have sent out a memo, just like they sent out a memo to all the teams when the Patriots were caught spy-filming games.

Was the block on your boy an illegal block? Was it flagged? If not, was there a fine?
 
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