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The Patriots Cheated?!?

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the_Roqk

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Boston said:
Some of you older Pats fans might remember back in the early 80's when the Pats were playing the Dolphins in Foxboro during a snow storm. Coach Ron Meyer sent a member of the grounds crew, a guy on work release from Walpole State Prison, out onto the field with a snow blower to clear a spot for Patriots place kicker John Smith to attempt a field goal. Smith made the kick and the Pats won 3-0. Classic! I call it Yankee Ingenuity, not cheating
That's a part of HOMEFIELD advantage.
 

mr x

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Yeah, but it also makes it easier for illegally obtained info to be relayed to players and coaches. I say get rid of all the headsets, particularly to the coaches. Technology like this just makes it easier to skirt the rules. Ditch the photos too.

Old school for me, coach it from where it is played, on the ground.
 

mr x

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Don't sweat it, Shawne Merriman and Shaun Phillips are going to take care of that this weekend. hee hee
 

ohiobrewtus

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the_bird said:
Oh, I know all about Rodney....

Think he juiced back in his San Diego days? ;)
Guys don't play as long as Harrison has played and hit the way that Harrison hits without having the help of some ahem... pills along the way.
 

mr x

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ohiobrewtus said:
Guys don't play as long as Harrison has played and hit the way that Harrison hits without having the help of some ahem... pills along the way.
Probably right, but I gotta believe Ronnie Lott was legit.
 
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Evan!

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the_bird said:
I've been hitting it for years and I don't need no stinkin' pills!
So that 4-hour+ erection that you were complaining about wasn't from Cialis? :p
 
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Evan!

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the_bird said:
What can I say, your mom does strange things to me... :D
I'll be the first to tell you, of all the strange things my mom could do to you, giving you a stiffy is not one of them.
 

kornkob

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johnsma22 said:
I'd admit it was stupid for the Pat's to continue videotaping on the sideline after ALL NFL teams were warned to discontinue the practice, but it is even more stupid for the reason that there really is no competitive edge gained by the practice. It's just as easy for someone on the sideline to visually observe the defensive signals given by the other team and chart them, which is not against NFL rules. The reason you see coaches shield their faces with their clipboards sometimes is because they know people are watching.
See, I don't think so-- yes you can watch the signals but if you can get someone to video tape them, from the sidelines, and put it into context (especially if you also have someone covertly use a directional mic to get some sound to go with the taping) then you can pull the tape at halftime and have some real cryptographers go at the tape in detail. That way your feild operative can be an expert at getting yout eh tape and sound you need and your cyrpto guy cna concentrate on helping you understand. Then in the last half you can work it the other way: record live and transmit to someone who can really read the signals.


Also, it seems likely that the signals will change but probably in a simple pattern. If you can start to recognize that pattern it becomes a bigger deal. In fact, that might be the trick of it right there. If you teach them a simple one off code you could vary the signals even within a game and learning the pattern of that varience might be all you need to crack the code wide open. This actually woudl be easier for the players too--- instead of having to recall a new code every week, if you just had to be able to speak the language then the code doesn't change-- you just read what's being said.


Like this: I need to tell you 12. Instead I say b14---- you know that the code means B = 2 and I should subtract 2 from 14 to get the real number. Now it doesn't matter what day it is or where we are, I can always tell you a number without people nearby really knowing what it is. However, learning the pattern of that as an outside observer gets complicated. Enter recording devices.

And that kind of shift code can be made more complicated by adding a layer or making hand position important.

I'm just saying--- could be tactically relevant or startegically relevant.
 

RichBrewer

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the_bird said:
I can't deny that it bothers me on some level.

Does that mean I won't follow them? Of course not. Does my loyalty as a fan change? Nah. Just means that I'm disappointed.
You need to dump the pats right now! They are a classless scumbag organization! :D


Ol commish came down onem pretty hard eh?
 

ohiobrewtus

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$500k fine for Belichik, $250k fine for the Patriots.

If the Pats make the playoffs, they will lose one of their first round picks in the 2008 draft (most likely their own 1st round pick, not the one that they acquired from San Francisco).

If they do not make the playoffs, they will lose their 2nd and 3rd round picks in the 2008 draft.

I, personally, think that this isn't enough. If Wade Wilson, the Dallas QB Coach, gets a 5 game suspension for using HGH (A COACH!), then Belichik should have gotten suspended for at least 5 games as well.
 

the_bird

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Losing a first round pick is pretty severe, and a half-mil will make ANYONE think twice about doing this again. They couldn't make the team forfeit the game (which would have been the ultimate punishment), they were just so clearly the better team than the Jets.

I'm pretty sure the Broncos only lost a third-rounder when they cheated with Elway's contract (which somehow circumvented salary cap rules).
 

ohiobrewtus

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the_bird said:
I'm pretty sure the Broncos only lost a third-rounder when they cheated with Elway's contract (which somehow circumvented salary cap rules).
While both are clearly forms of cheating, I think that what the Pats did is on a whole different level than the Broncos trying to save a few salary cap bucks. Teams are coming up with new ways to push back salary cap money all the time. Option bonuses, NLTBA/LTBA (not likely to be achieved/likely to be achieved) bonuses of rediculous amounts for things such as playing in 20% of the teams plays. These are referred to as 'falling off a log bonuses'. Technically they are not viewed in a good light by the league, but agent and players use them because they can - and they are not illegal.

Trying to save a few bucks on the cap and blatantly cheating even after the commissioner had openly stated to teams to NOT do this are two very different things, imho.

Still, what gets me is that the Pats don't need to do this. They're oen of the top 3, if not THE best team in the league. Silly if you ask me.
 

the_bird

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Someone made the point....

Bill Belichick is no different than Red Auerbach. Red absolutely would have done every single thing that Belichick is alledged to have done to circumvent (or outright violate) the rules. Things like making sure there WERE dead spots on the floor that the C's could maneuver the opponents to and grab a steal. Making the opposing locker room freezing cold or sweltering hot. Any little advantage that he could, some within the rules, some certainly in the grey area, some more clearly outside.

Does this excuse what Belichick did? Nah - but anyone who is claiming that the Pats' reputation is permantly tarnished needs to remember just how selective our memories truly are. Any dirty tricks employed by Red are now - if not forgotten, effectively dismissed and those teams' true greatness is remembered. In twenty years, no one will remember these charges, they'll remember the Pats as being one of the best, smartest teams of all time.

Hell, I'll go out on a limb and say that this will be entirely forgotten before mid-season, brought up only again when the Pats next play the Jets.
 

ohiobrewtus

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the_bird said:
Someone made the point....

Bill Belichick is no different than Red Auerbach. Red absolutely would have done every single thing that Belichick is alledged to have done to circumvent (or outright violate) the rules. Things like making sure there WERE dead spots on the floor that the C's could maneuver the opponents to and grab a steal. Making the opposing locker room freezing cold or sweltering hot. Any little advantage that he could, some within the rules, some certainly in the grey area, some more clearly outside.

Does this excuse what Belichick did? Nah - but anyone who is claiming that the Pats' reputation is permantly tarnished needs to remember just how selective our memories truly are. Any dirty tricks employed by Red are now - if not forgotten, effectively dismissed and those teams' true greatness is remembered. In twenty years, no one will remember these charges, they'll remember the Pats as being one of the best, smartest teams of all time.

Hell, I'll go out on a limb and say that this will be entirely forgotten before mid-season, brought up only again when the Pats next play the Jets.
I agree with you. In my mind this doesn't tarnish his reputation as a coach one bit. You are probably right that this will soon be forgotten about.

I just think that as hard as the commisioner has come down on on players and even other coaches since he's been the commish, he should have made an example out of Belichik. $500k is squat when you've made $5+ mill a year for the last 5 years.
 

Cheesefood

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ohiobrewtus said:
$500k is squat when you've made $5+ mill a year for the last 5 years.
That's $3mm after taxes.
That's $2.55mm after paying your accountant and attorney a combined 15%
So $500,000 is 20% of his salary for a year. Yeah, that's a big deal.

Still, did you guys hear about the $100mm fine handed down to the racing team that stole Ferrari's secrets?
 

ohiobrewtus

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the_bird said:
Don't forget how much his ex-wife (I think the divorce is official) has taken of that salary!
Not to mention how much money he spent on the married girlfriend that he's had for a couple of years now!
 

TheJadedDog

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the_bird said:
Hell, I'll go out on a limb and say that this will be entirely forgotten before mid-season, brought up only again when the Pats next play the Jets.
Not if they suddenly start losing or if Brady starts getting sacked all the time, then it will linger.

Personally I think the punishment was just and harsh. If you gave Bill the choice between being suspended for a game or two or losing draft picks, he would have chosen to be suspended. The draft picks hurt the team way more than any suspension would and for a longer period of time.
 

jdoiv

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TheJadedDog said:
If you gave Bill the choice between being suspended for a game or two or losing draft picks, he would have chosen to be suspended. The draft picks hurt the team way more than any suspension would and for a longer period of time.

I don't buy this. The rumor is that Bill this may be Bill's last year with the Pats. I don't think the draft picks really concern him if he's not going to be around next year. I think a suspension in line with the one the Cowboys quarterback coach got (5 games) would have sent a better message. Take him out of the picture for 5 weeks and keep him away from the office would have done serious damage to the Pats over the next few games and leveled the playing field so to say.

Now do the draft picks hurt the team, yes they do. But if Bill isn't around and he was the one breaking the rules, it doesn't really punish the offender.
 

the_bird

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I don't buy the rumors that this is Belichick's last year. People have been saying that because of the huge amount of talent they accumilated over the winter, but all the players they brought in had a pretty modest cap impact - deals that won't really blow up in future years. This wasn't going out and overpaying for every free agent. Hell, if he was only concerned about this year, he would have signed Asante Samuel to a deal months ago.
 

ohiobrewtus

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I don't think anyone but Belichick and Bob Kraft know whether or not he'll be back. Heck, no one even knows what his salary is or when his contract ends.
 

mr x

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No suspension. What a joke. Hang Michael Vick for behavior unbecoming, and Belichek gets nothing. Sad.
 

Boston

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mr x said:
No suspension. What a joke. Hang Michael Vick for behavior unbecoming, and Belichek gets nothing. Sad.
Unbecoming behavior? Get real, Vick violated federal statutes. FELONIES!

No animals were harmed in the filming of the Jet's bench.
 

mr x

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So what. I drop live lobsters in a pot and then eat them. Nobody hassles me about it.

Hollis Thomas got suspended because his doctor prescribed inhaler (which helps keep him alive) contained a banned substance, even though it was pretty clear that was what the purpose was.

And Belichek cheats outright and gets nothing.....
 

Beerrific

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mr x said:
So what. I drop live lobsters in a pot and then eat them. Nobody hassles me about it.
Lobsters feel pain in a completely different way than dogs (or mammals in general). There is no comparison.
 

mr x

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I seen lots of things die that aren't mammals, and it doesn't always look pretty to me. I think the comparison is closer than you may think, but people will believe what they want....
 
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From Gregg Easterbrook:

This weekend, in an e-mail exchange with NFL spokesman Greg Aiello, I asked twice whether the Patriots' documents contained evidence of cheating in the Super Bowl, and Aiello twice declined to either confirm or deny the existence of such evidence. The first time, he changed the subject with a detailed response about the original penalty; and the second time, after I protested he hadn't answered my questions, he replied, "I did answer your questions to the extent I'm going to answer them."
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/070925&sportCat=nfl

Interesting.
 
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