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The Patriots Cheated?!?

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Evan!

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Damn, this is crazy...

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, according to league sources.

NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.

Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents.
That's pretty low.
 

Bernie Brewer

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Yeah it's pretty low, but how many other teams do it and haven't gotten caught?? Maybe none, and even if there are more, it certainly doesn't ake it right, I just think there could be more teams out there doing it and that should be looked into.
 

ohiobrewtus

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Ya, it's been all over sportscenter the last 2 days. I'm very curious to see what punishment Commissioner Goodell will place on the team. As I see it, it's going to be a multi-million dollar fine, or they will lose a couple of next year's draft picks - like a 3rd and a 5th or possibly a 2nd and a 4th.
 

Yooper

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Even if others are doing it, I was still pretty shocked. I mean, they don't even have to cheat to win. Not that it's ok for less than stellar teams to cheat, I didn't mean that. What I meant is that the Patriots have a strong enough team to compete with the best and they stooped to stealing the Jets' signals? That smacks of desperation and poor sportsmanship.

Of course, I still remember the days of trying to steal the other team's playbook. So maybe things haven't changed that much after all.
 

dblvsn

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It happens in every sport. Competition is so close these days between sports teams that every advantage counts(most of the time illegal). The Patriots got caught this time. They'll get some other team next time. It just makes me hate professional sports more and more when I hear stuff like this.
 

the_bird

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I can't deny that it bothers me on some level.

Baseball, I think, is a better example. Everyone knows that on Bobby Thompson's "THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT! THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!" home run, the Giants stole the sign from the catcher, right? I've never been bothered by sign stealing when it's done by the players or coaches on the field or in the dugout - but done with their own eyes. If the other team can't disguise their signs, BFD - that's on them.

If the Pats were using technological means to assist in their "cheating," that's not cool. With the Giants, they had someone out in the scoreboard with a telescope, IIRC - it wasn't someone on the field, it wasn't a coach on the sidelines, and they were using a mechanical device to help them. What the Pats did - if proven - strikes me as being morally equivalent to what the Giants did. For me, that's not how I want *my* team to be.

If it was just a coach being assigned to watch the other team, personally, I think that's legitimate. I'm sure it's against the rules, but I don't find it unethical in the least to see what the other guy's doing. If I'm a runner on second base, why should I pretend to not see the catcher's fingers?

Does that mean I won't follow them? Of course not. Does my loyalty as a fan change? Nah. Just means that I'm disappointed.

I mean, for cripe's sake - this was the JETS! Save that crap for when the Colts or the Chargers come to town!
 

Bernie Brewer

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dblvsn said:
It happens in every sport. Competition is so close these days between sports teams that every advantage counts(most of the time illegal). The Patriots got caught this time. They'll get some other team next time. It just makes me hate professional sports more and more when I hear stuff like this.

Ya and college sports aren't any better, neither is high school, and while we're at it, have you been to a Little League game recently? If you get rid of the coaches, parents and umpires, it'd be much better.:cross:
 

2nd Street Brewery

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the_bird said:
I can't deny that it bothers me on some level.

Baseball, I think, is a better example. Everyone knows that on Bobby Thompson's "THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT! THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!" home run, the Giants stole the sign from the catcher, right? I've never been bothered by sign stealing when it's done by the players or coaches on the field or in the dugout - but done with their own eyes. If the other team can't disguise their signs, BFD - that's on them.

If the Pats were using technological means to assist in their "cheating," that's not cool. With the Giants, they had someone out in the scoreboard with a telescope, IIRC - it wasn't someone on the field, it wasn't a coach on the sidelines, and they were using a mechanical device to help them. What the Pats did - if proven - strikes me as being morally equivalent to what the Giants did. For me, that's not how I want *my* team to be.

If it was just a coach being assigned to watch the other team, personally, I think that's legitimate. I'm sure it's against the rules, but I don't find it unethical in the least to see what the other guy's doing. If I'm a runner on second base, why should I pretend to not see the catcher's fingers?

Does that mean I won't follow them? Of course not. Does my loyalty as a fan change? Nah. Just means that I'm disappointed.

I mean, for cripe's sake - this was the JETS! Save that crap for when the Colts or the Chargers come to town!
See that's the problem bird. This is not the first time the Pats have been done this. The Packers threw the same guy out last year for the same thing, and the Colts complaigned during the playoffs last year as did the Vikes and and the Dolphins if I remember correctly. The league came out and warned all teams in the preseason that the use of electronic devices to steal signs was specifically prohibited and camaras on the sidelines has always been taboo. But Belichik is such an arrogant ass that he figures he is above the rules. And this is not just a Jets fan bitching, read some of the articles out there from other teams and sportswriters who say this is nothing new with him.
 

the_bird

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2nd Street Brewery said:
See that's the problem bird. This is not the first time the Pats have been done this. The Packers threw the same guy out last year for the same thing, and the Colts complaigned during the playoffs last year as did the Vikes and and the Dolphins if I remember correctly. The league came out and warned all teams in the preseason that the use of electronic devices to steal signs was specifically prohibited and camaras on the sidelines has always been taboo. But Belichik is such an arrogant ass that he figures he is above the rules. And this is not just a Jets fan bitching, read some of the articles out there from other teams and sportswriters who say this is nothing new with him.
Well, yeah, I know, that's why I'm torn and disappointed. ;)

Torn 'cause I love them, disappointed that they felt the need to cheat. If they get docked a draft pick (hopefully not a first rounder), I can't complain too much.
 

TheJadedDog

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As a Pats fan I am disgusted by the behavior of my team. First Rodney Harrison is caught using HGH (I don't care if he wanted to get back on the field faster, it is still cheating) and now Bill is caught using a video camera to steal signs (again, no matter what the excuses, it is cheating).

I have heard all the arguments about gamesmanship and sign stealing in baseball; but there is a big difference between the guy on second stealing the sign ON HIS OWN and passing it to the batter and using technology to record signs and break them down with photos of the formations after the sign was given.

Cheating is cheating and is just sickens me.
 

the_bird

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TheJadedDog said:
I have heard all the arguments about gamesmanship and sign stealing in baseball; but there is a big difference between the guy on second stealing the sign ON HIS OWN and passing it to the batter and using technology to record signs and break them down with photos of the formations after the sign was given.
Agree wholeheartedly and hope that came across in my post.
 

mr x

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My Chargers will give you something to really feel bad about Sunday night. heh heh heh
 
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Evan!

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TheJadedDog said:
Of course it did, was just giving my thoughts as another Pats fan seeing as how we are all being disparaged for being homers ;) .
Yeah, you and bird and anyone else on here that's a pats fan should personally apologize to everyone else. It's partially your fault for demanding that they win so much...:p
 

ohiobrewtus

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the_bird said:
I mean, for cripe's sake - this was the JETS! Save that crap for when the Colts or the Chargers come to town!
They allegedly did the same thing vs. my lowly Lions last year as well.
 

Boston

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Bill Belichick released the following statement today:

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league’s decision, I will have further comment."

OK, he apologized. All is fine. Everybody go back to work. We'll see some of you come playoff time.
 
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Rosie Ruiz released the following statement today:

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Boston Marathon Officials about an alternate race course procedure during the 1980 Boston Marathon and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the Boston Marathon Officials ruling. Although it remains am official matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all sponsors, staff and runners. Following the official decision, I will have further comment."


You youngsters can google that.
 

mr x

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All he apologized for is creating an event. He certainly won't show any remorse for the actual cheating, and he knew it was cheating. The only way this will be fine is if the three main coaches are suspended for the next game against the Jets. We'll see if Belichek is held to the same standard as Michael Vick and the game fixing ref.
 

mr x

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olllllo said:
Rosie Ruiz released the following statement today:

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Boston Marathon Officials about an alternate race course procedure during the 1980 Boston Marathon and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the Boston Marathon Officials ruling. Although it remains am official matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all sponsors, staff and runners. Following the official decision, I will have further comment."


You youngsters can google that.
Yeah, the wheels of justice......:drunk: lol
 

Boston

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Some of you older Pats fans might remember back in the early 80's when the Pats were playing the Dolphins in Foxboro during a snow storm. Coach Ron Meyer sent a member of the grounds crew, a guy on work release from Walpole State Prison, out onto the field with a snow blower to clear a spot for Patriots place kicker John Smith to attempt a field goal. Smith made the kick and the Pats won 3-0. Classic! I call it Yankee Ingenuity, not cheating
 
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Evan!

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Boston said:
I call it Yankee Ingenuity, not cheating
When it's specifically forbidden in the rulebook, and you have been suspected of it in the past and warned about it several times...then it's about as "ingenious" as wide receivers wearing sticky gloves.
 

the_bird

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I don't think the rule was clear regarding the snowplow guy... I don't think that was something specifically addressed, like the videotaping issue has been.

What I wonder... it's highly doubtful the Pats JUST started doing this. You've got to figure that Mangini knew about how they did it from his time with the team. Seems like you're begging to get caught when you've got a former employee on the other sideline; methinks there won't be any more Belichick/Mangini bear hugs at midfield.
 
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Evan!

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the_bird said:
I don't think the rule was clear regarding the snowplow guy... I don't think that was something specifically addressed, like the videotaping issue has been.
I know...just seemed like Boston was trying to draw a parallel between the snow blower incident and this new thing.

What I wonder... it's highly doubtful the Pats JUST started doing this. You've got to figure that Mangini knew about how they did it from his time with the team. Seems like you're begging to get caught when you've got a former employee on the other sideline; methinks there won't be any more Belichick/Mangini bear hugs at midfield.
That's true. Hold your cards close to your vest when you're playing against known cheaters. Then again, maybe it was Mangini who noticed it and notified officials...?
 

the_bird

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Evan! said:
IThat's true. Hold your cards close to your vest when you're playing against known cheaters. Then again, maybe it was Mangini who noticed it and notified officials...?
That's what I'm thinking. Gotta be careful if we play Cleveland (although Romeo will prolly be back working for Bill next year again...)



From:http://www.ffbookmarks.com/photo_gallery_of_great_moments.htm#The Snowplow Game

In a game that is actually a misnomer, convicted convict Mark Henderson, who was working for the Patriots on a work release program, added his name to NFL lore. On the morning of the game it started snowing real early. Henderson manned the sweeper which was attached to a John Deere tractor. It had a four-foot long brush that spun and swept the carpet hence the misnomer, he was not actually using a snowplow. Snow continued to fall throughout the game and viewing the lines on the field was very difficult. Players on both sides were also struggling with footing and the game stayed scoreless until 4:45 was left in the game. Patriots head coach Ron Meyer called a time out with the Patriots on the 16-yard line and getting ready to attempt a field goal. He then ran down the sideline toward Henderson and yelled for him to "Do something." Henderson stated that he knew what Meyer wanted so he proceeded to the 20-yard line to sweep the line during the time out. Holder Matt Cavanaugh clapped his hands and yelled "Follow me." Henderson said "I went down the 20-yard line, which is where I was stationed. Then I did a little swerve over to the 23, kind of a nonchalant swerve." There was then a nice clean carpet for kicker John Smith to kick the 33-yard field goal giving the Patriots a 3-0 victory. At the time, there was no rule prohibiting this action so the sweep and the field goal stood despite protestations from coach Don Shula of the Dolphins. Now in bad weather, coaches confer on the field to determine what can and cannot be done during the game but, Mark Henderson will always be associated with "The Snowplow Game.".
 
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Evan!

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That's hilarious. I was 3 years old at the time, so I can't say I remember it...
 
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Boston said:
I call it Yankee Ingenuity, not cheating
Hey bird:

You guys don't cheat when brewing beer do you.

Perhaps related:

I don't understand why each team doesn't have a room full of video technicians in front of Hi-Def screens analyzing disputed calls in real time. Should not be a reason to be as awful as some coaches are about issuing a challenge.
 

the_bird

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olllllo said:
I don't understand why each team doesn't have a room full of video technicians in front of Hi-Def screens analyzing disputed calls in real time. Should not be a reason to be as awful as some coaches are about issuing a challenge.
I'm not sure that they're allowed to. I know they can have someone upstairs looking at the tape and telling the coach whether to throw the flag or not, but I would assume that the League limits what technology they have access to.
 
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the_bird said:
I'm not sure that they're allowed to. I know they can have someone upstairs looking at the tape and telling the coach whether to throw the flag or not, but I would assume that the League limits what technology they have access to.
That's my assumption, but how can you possibly prevent someone from signaling covertly.
 

TheJadedDog

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olllllo said:
That's my assumption, but how can you possibly prevent someone from signaling covertly.
That's what is so strange about this, you could do what the Pats were doing without the video camera. Just stick someone in the stands with binoculars or something and have them signal to someone standing on the sidelines.

I thought Shula's comments were interesting the other night; instead of piling on the Pats he basically said, if you're stealing my signals, shame on me. Ironic coming from Shula of all people.
 

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I'd admit it was stupid for the Pat's to continue videotaping on the sideline after ALL NFL teams were warned to discontinue the practice, but it is even more stupid for the reason that there really is no competitive edge gained by the practice. It's just as easy for someone on the sideline to visually observe the defensive signals given by the other team and chart them, which is not against NFL rules. The reason you see coaches shield their faces with their clipboards sometimes is because they know people are watching.

The signals are changed from game to game and there are even "dummy" signals being given to try and confuse the opposition as to what the actual signals are. The videotaping is something Bill likes to do so that when he is watching the game film he can try and look for "tendencies" from the opposing coaches for the next time they play them. The signals he sees WILL NOT be used again by the other team. If they do use them again they are fools. There is no way that the taping of the signals could be used during THAT game to gain any competitive advantage. That's why I think it was dumb of the Pats to take the risk in doing it.

With that said, they got caught, they will own up to it, take their lumps and move on and still continue to dominate the league on the field. When you are on top and dominant, even in this time of the NFL trying to create parody in the league, everyone, including the commissioner and little Eric Man-Gina, will be trying to knock you off. They can't do it on the playing field, so they must attempt to do it by other means.
 

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How arrogant were the Pats? How hard is it to hook someone up with good seats in the first 10 rows and buy them a hand-held high-def camera with a good lens? Why did they need a guy on the field?

Friggin' arrogance. They were defiantly cheating.

But is this any different from the days they'd hire lip readers?
 

ohiobrewtus

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Evan! said:
When it's specifically forbidden in the rulebook, and you have been suspected of it in the past and warned about it several times...then it's about as "ingenious" as wide receivers wearing sticky gloves.
heh heh, sticky gloves.

Have you ever seen The Replacements? One of my favorite lines ever

Gene Hackman (Coach McGinty) lubes up a WR hands with sticky glue

The WR says - "Coach, it looks like I just jacked off an elephant'
 

ohiobrewtus

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mr x said:
Maybe this should be the death of all radio headsets.....
Actually, it should be the exact opposite. In the offseason the NFL Competition Committee took a vote on middle linebackers having radios in their helment like QB's do - which would have allowed defensive playcalls to come in via radio just like offensive playcalls do now.

The issue needed 24 out of 32 votes to pass, it received 22 votes.

Now that the Patriots have been caught cheating, it will only bring more attention to this issue and I look for headsets to be in play for defensive play calling next year - eliminating the need for baseball type head-patting and crotch-grabbing sidline signals from coaches.
 
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