The Panther Piss Project: A Description of How I Learned to Make Clear Fizzy Yellow Swill in Fourteen Days

[Miraculix]

This expensive...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ENFOIQE

I've had one for years now and love it. Super reliable and the replacement sensors are relatively inexpensive...

Cheers!

The 20 Euro ones probably aren't doing what they are supposed to?

 

[Bramling Cross]

This expensive...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ENFOIQE

I've had one for years now and love it. Super reliable and the replacement sensors are relatively inexpensive...

Cheers!

I feel like a jerk for recommending it because when I bought my full kit version it was quite reasonable. Maybe fifty bucks? Now the tool alone is eighty bucks. That said, I've used many pH meters over the years, including a pair of Milwaukees, and nothing is as fast, stable, and easy to calibrate as the Apera. I couldn't have done the project with the Milwaukees--they were simply too slow.

 

[Bramling Cross]

This thread is going to force me to finally buy a meter...

Sorry.

 

[mac_1103]

Question is, how expensive do they have to be to do their job properly?

About twice as much as the last one you bought.

The 20 Euro ones probably aren't doing what they are supposed to?

Actually they probably are. But not very well for very long.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... continuing a side topic

What a glorious opportunity for a side by side comparison did just appear in my head?

I'll do the decanting thing, filling my main fermenter with relatively clear wort.

I'll dump the whole remainder, including the hot break, into a smaller fermenter and ferment them side by side and compare the resulting beer.

I did that a couple of times recently as a process "side effect" of something else I was interested in. It was a 2.5 gal batch, split into half using 1.4 gal fermenters. I was using gravity (3 - 4 hours of time) to let the wort settle, so I ended up pouring 1.25 gal of clear work into the first fermenter and the rest into the second. I pitched dry yeast (1/4 sachet per 1.25 gal in the fermenter, sprinkled (not rehydrated), with a small amount of yeast nutrient).

What I noticed was that the fermenter with the clear wort started slower.

I was interested in something else at the time so I didn't evaluate the beers from different fermenters side by side (but I can say that all the beers were enjoyable).

---

@Bramling Cross : thanks for posting the original topic!

 

[corncob]

@Bramling Cross what about cold break? Into the fermenter, filtered out some way, or do you take the efficiency hit and leave it all in the kettle?

 

[Bramling Cross]

@Bramling Cross what about cold break? Into the fermenter, filtered out some way, or do you take the efficiency hit and leave it all in the kettle?

Hey, corncob!

I typically use my Hop Stopper 2.0 to limit the amount of cold break that works its way into the fermenter. I do this principally to ease the process of reusing yeast. The Hop Stopper 2.0 is a great hops filter and an okay cold break filter, so plenty of cold break makes its way over to the fermenter to provide its noted benefits. It doesn't take much cold break, so I tend to leave as much as possible behind in the kettle. This isn't as wasteful as it may sound if you over-chill your wort, then allow it to settle for a half hour (or longer during the winter when it's easy to do) prior to racking into the fermenter. Doing it this way allows the cold break time to compact and makes the separation process easier, thus yielding a full fermenter filled with actual wort while leaving the bulk of the cold break in the kettle. I don't see racking the full volume of wort into the kettle as being more efficient because it'll just wind up as dead space on the bottom of the fermenter. I'd rather separate as much cold break from the wort as possible in the kettle, knowing that plenty will get past my efforts and provide its benefits to the fermenting and, eventually, finished beer. I hope that makes sense?

Idiot that I am, I frequently forget to install the Hop Stopper in my kettle prior to running off my mash, so I've had lots of opportunity to compare beers made with the Hop Stopper or with the trub dam that is always installed on my kettle. I can't tell a difference between batches made with the Hop Stopper or the trub dam. They both taste and look the same, and they clear at the same rate. The only difference between the two that I'm aware of is the increased volume of space lost in the fermenter to cold break associated with the less effective trub dam.

I hope that answers your question, don't be bashful about follow ups.

 

[Miraculix]

Hey, corncob!

I typically use my Hop Stopper 2.0 to limit the amount of cold break that works its way into the fermenter. I do this principally to ease the process of reusing yeast. The Hop Stopper 2.0 is a great hops filter and an okay cold break filter, so plenty of cold break makes its way over to the fermenter to provide its noted benefits. It doesn't take much cold break, so I tend to leave as much as possible behind in the kettle. This isn't as wasteful as it may sound if you over-chill your wort, then allow it to settle for a half hour (or longer during the winter when it's easy to do) prior to racking into the fermenter. Doing it this way allows the cold break time to compact and makes the separation process easier, thus yielding a full fermenter filled with actual wort while leaving the bulk of the cold break in the kettle rather than occupying an inefficient volume of deadspace at the bottom of the fermenter.

Idiot that I am, I frequently forget to install the Hop Stopper in my kettle prior to running off my mash, so I've had lots of opportunity to compare beers made with the Hop Stopper or with the trub dam that is always installed on my kettle. I can't tell a difference between batches made with the Hop Stopper or the trub dam. They both taste and look the same, and they clear at the same rate. The only difference between the two that I'm aware of is the increased volume of space lost in the fermenter to cold break associated with the less effective trub dam.

I hope that answers your question, don't be bashful about follow ups.

Any impact on foam recognisable for you?

 

[Bramling Cross]

Any impact on foam recognisable for you?

I'm a lucky guy, I've never run into beer foam issues on anything that I brew, even with the low (UK-inspired) serving pressures that I prefer. I do run a bit more gas on my lagers, but not much. In fact, I'm more frequently annoyed at having to break a pour into two parts so that I can allow the foam to subside. I don't attribute this good luck to any skill on my part as a brewer. Rather, I clean my glasses properly and I keep them wet and that seems to keep my beers' heads large and persistent. At least good enough for me, I'm not exactly rocking ClaudiusB levels of head. He's the dude to talk to if you want to talk about beer foam.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm a lucky guy, I've never run into beer foam issues on anything that brew, even with the low (UK-inspired) serving pressures that I prefer. I do run a bit more gas on my lagers, but not much. In fact, I'm more frequently annoyed at having to break a pour into two parts so that I can allow the foam to subside. I don't attribute this good luck to any skill on my part as a brewer. Rather, I clean my glasses properly and I keep them wet and that seems to keep my beer's heads large and persistent.

Lucky you!

I've had quite a long time issues with foam. That's luckily a thing of the past.

 

[corncob]

I have a close friend who is a PhD microbiologist. He doesn't brew, but is always interested in talking to me about brewing, or at least he's willing to listen to me rant while drinking my beer.

I saw him recently and mentioned this thread: "there's a guy who is apparently able to get lager yeast through its entire fermentation cycle and turn a clear, finished lager around in 2 weeks by manipulating pH."

He said "I know exactly why that works."

His hypothesis might not be complete or spot on, but listening to him gave me dim flashbacks from college.

He pointed out that a cell is essentially a pump--pulling things in and pushing them out AGAINST A CONCENTRATION GRADIENT. (Yes! I'm remembering) Most of the mechanisms used to force stuff across the membrane are ion-exchange pumps. (vaguely familiar). What is pH, but a quantification of how many ions are available in the solution to work at these pumps? And remember that pH is a log scale. I did a quick calculation just now and it looks like the delta between pH=5.6 and pH=5.2 corresponds to roughly twice the concentration of ions. Not a huge difference in the chemistry realm (hence the use of the log scale) but apparently very significant in the biological realm.

His hypothesis is that there is something the yeast have to get in or out that works just fine when ions are scarce, possibly by making some (English yeast) or just by happily working at the pace their supply of ions permits (German yeast). AND the process of moving this particular thing across the membrane then becomes the production bottleneck for the yeast--the pace car, the long pole in the tent, etc. You still get a healthy fermentation and normal beer if you wait. BUT the yeast are just as happy to pick up the pace if the supply of ions permits.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I have a close friend who is a PhD microbiologist. He doesn't brew, but is always interested in talking to me about brewing, or at least he's willing to listen to me rant while drinking my beer.

I saw him recently and mentioned this thread: "there's a guy who is apparently able to get lager yeast through its entire fermentation cycle and turn a clear, finished lager around in 2 weeks by manipulating pH."

He said "I know exactly why that works."

His hypothesis might not be complete or spot on, but listening to him gave me dim flashbacks from college.

He pointed out that a cell is essentially a pump--pulling things in and pushing them out AGAINST A CONCENTRATION GRADIENT. (Yes! I'm remembering) Most of the mechanisms used to force stuff across the membrane are ion-exchange pumps. (vaguely familiar). What is pH, but a quantification of how many ions are available in the solution to work at these pumps? And remember that pH is a log scale. I did a quick calculation just now and it looks like the delta between pH=5.6 and pH=5.2 corresponds to roughly twice the concentration of ions. Not a huge difference in the chemistry realm (hence the use of the log scale) but apparently very significant in the biological realm.

His hypothesis is that there is something the yeast have to get in or out that works just fine when ions are scarce, possibly by making some (English yeast) or just by happily working at the pace their supply of ions permits (German yeast). AND the process of moving this particular thing across the membrane then becomes the production bottleneck for the yeast--the pace car, the long pole in the tent, etc. You still get a healthy fermentation and normal beer if you wait. BUT the yeast are just as happy to pick up the pace if the supply of ions permits.

Thanks for that, corncob! That's certainly a better explanation than any of the baloney that has lumbered across my dim mind and seems like a reasonable explanation for the very fast fermentations, despite the low temperatures. It may also point to the reason why I don't find a D-rest necessary.

That's an interesting rabbit hole that I'll be sure to return to once I lick this ski jump business.

I really appreciate your taking the time!

 

[Miraculix]

I have a close friend who is a PhD microbiologist. He doesn't brew, but is always interested in talking to me about brewing, or at least he's willing to listen to me rant while drinking my beer.

I saw him recently and mentioned this thread: "there's a guy who is apparently able to get lager yeast through its entire fermentation cycle and turn a clear, finished lager around in 2 weeks by manipulating pH."

He said "I know exactly why that works."

His hypothesis might not be complete or spot on, but listening to him gave me dim flashbacks from college.

He pointed out that a cell is essentially a pump--pulling things in and pushing them out AGAINST A CONCENTRATION GRADIENT. (Yes! I'm remembering) Most of the mechanisms used to force stuff across the membrane are ion-exchange pumps. (vaguely familiar). What is pH, but a quantification of how many ions are available in the solution to work at these pumps? And remember that pH is a log scale. I did a quick calculation just now and it looks like the delta between pH=5.6 and pH=5.2 corresponds to roughly twice the concentration of ions. Not a huge difference in the chemistry realm (hence the use of the log scale) but apparently very significant in the biological realm.

His hypothesis is that there is something the yeast have to get in or out that works just fine when ions are scarce, possibly by making some (English yeast) or just by happily working at the pace their supply of ions permits (German yeast). AND the process of moving this particular thing across the membrane then becomes the production bottleneck for the yeast--the pace car, the long pole in the tent, etc. You still get a healthy fermentation and normal beer if you wait. BUT the yeast are just as happy to pick up the pace if the supply of ions permits.

Thanks for the info!

I don't think that your buddy is right in total, he forgets one big thing in this equation. That is that the yeast is really good in changing the environment to it's own liking. This means that the yeasties are manipulating pH into the range that supports their growth the best possible way. That's why typical beer pH is in the acidic range, the yeast does this on demand and it does it quickly.

The major things are happening before the yeast is pitched me guesses.

My most recent brew supports this view. It has about 30% rice in it and this rice is resulting in one of the fastest clearing brews I've ever had. I'm using s04, so the yeast itself also clears quickly. This means we don't have much proteins, lipids and whatnots staying in suspension for long and surprise surprise, just as you, I'm suddenly a green beer connoisseur because the beer simply does not taste green anymore after only two weeks in the bottle.

I think what's happening is that the low pH during mash and boil forces everything out of solution that usually contributes to green beer flavour. At hot break and/or cold break. Mainly hot break I think.

The fact that the yeast has it easier under such lowered pH conditions is certainly some additional surplus, but I don't think that it is the main driver. Because I'm having the same effect when using rice, instead of lowering pH.

 

[Miraculix]

Double post

 

[corncob]

just as you, I'm suddenly a green beer connoisseur

Welcome home, my brother.

I am just a mechanic with a poor attitude, so I don't claim to have any understanding of what is going on with beer. But, like you, I am struck by the correlation between the timing of clarity at fermentation's end and the timing of unwanted flavors suddenly dissipating. I've observed it too many times. There's something going on here, whether caused by biological or physical action.

For the record, I've seen it in pale beers with no dry hops/very little late hops, but with strong, vigorous, short fermentations. Change any one of the three, and it becomes a toss-up--the beer might be ready in another week or in another 3 weeks.

But when everything hits right, the timeline is dramatically (and predictably) shorter. I really need to buy a pH meter. I bet my pH is in the same range at the and points when everything hits just right.

 

[Miraculix]

Welcome home, my brother.

I am just a mechanic with a poor attitude, so I don't claim to have any understanding of what is going on with beer. But, like you, I am struck by the correlation between the timing of clarity at fermentation's end and the timing of unwanted flavors suddenly dissipating. I've observed it too many times. There's something going on here, whether caused by biological or physical action.

For the record, I've seen it in pale beers with no dry hops/very little late hops, but with strong, vigorous, short fermentations. Change any one of the three, and it becomes a toss-up--the beer might be ready in another week or in another 3 weeks.

But when everything hits right, the timeline is dramatically (and predictably) shorter. I really need to buy a pH meter. I bet my pH is in the same range at the and points when everything hits just right.

If just found this great read here:

https://brewingforward.com/wiki/Brewing_pH

It basically confirms what we were suspecting and also confirms what I was suspecting regarding hot break formation.

It also goes into detail regarding pH drop by the yeast. Really good read. Interesting fun fact, the article also talks about foam stability and how final pH is affecting that.

Wow, a lot of input in this one here!