The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[newuser12345]

Keep o2 under 1ppm, ideally half that at all phases of the brewing process (with the exception of immediately pre ferm). Failing to do so oxidizes the polyphenols that you want to keep to obtain the flavors associated with low oxygen brewing. Its really that simple. I'm sorry you feel threatened and encourage people to not engage when you are called out on flaws in the process that you are condoning. Most of the advice you are giving is simply quality assurance measures. Most of the benefits people are seeing are due to these QA measures, not low oxygen brewing as outlined in classical texts.

 

[Big Monk]

Directly from the article that I assume you didn't read...

"The stuff that they’re doing in eliminating dissolved oxygen in all parts of their process is definitely inspiring..."

Can't get any clearer than that.

There’s a great video on YouTube about Hill Fatmstead that has a ton of gear shots centered around their Braukon brewing system. Real nice stuff purpose built for low oxygen.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Keep o2 under 1ppm, ideally half that at all phases of the brewing process (with the exception of immediately pre ferm). Failing to do so oxidizes the polyphenols that you want to keep to obtain the flavors associated with low oxygen brewing. Its really that simple. I'm sorry you feel threatened and encourage people to not engage when you are called out on flaws in the process that you are condoning. Most of the advice you are giving is simply quality assurance measures. Most of the benefits people are seeing are due to these QA measures, not low oxygen brewing as outlined in classical texts.

I am nor sure if you are referring to me or?

But literally everything we say matches this ( our papers, articles, podcasts, etc).

HOWEVER, how are you getting validation in your measurements? As the literature repeatedly states that DO measurement in the mash is wildly unpredictable and very hard to measure. I have been looking for a more valid way, do you have one?

Prost.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Failing to do so oxidizes the polyphenols that you want to keep to obtain the flavors associated with low oxygen brewing. Its really that simple.

So how are those polyphenols, which have been carefully guarded from oxidation up until the point of fermentation, prevented from just oxidizing at that point? Is it the high temps that speed oxidation? Seems like a long period of exposure at low temps would be as damaging as short exposure at high temps? Either way those flavor compounds arrive in your mug oxidized.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Right..

The temperature at which those reactions happen is on your side during the yeast pitching phase (colder=slower). Active healthy yeast can easily take 9ppm down to zero in about an hour or so. The gold standard would be to add the yeast after their "need oxygen phase" ( i.e. grow them in another media), and not have to oxygenate your wort at all.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

So, I am brewing a NEIPA next and am wanting to move to fermenting in a 5 gallon keg to make transfers easier. I currently do 3.25 gallon batches so I have the headspace to do it.

The recipe obviously calls for dryhopping. How detrimental is it to open the top on days 1-5 to add the dry hops (or Cryo Hops & dry hops in this case). The yeast is still active, so is this introducing too much O2 for the yeast to handle at this stage?

 

[h22lude]

Does anyone pre-purge kegs with StarSan and keep them filled with CO2 until they are used? I have 3 empty ones and figured I could use the same StarSan and do it all at once for later use.

 

[mabrungard]

Does anyone pre-purge kegs with StarSan and keep them filled with CO2 until they are used? I have 3 empty ones and figured I could use the same StarSan and do it all at once for later use.

That's the way I do it.

 

[newuser12345]

Does anyone pre-purge kegs with StarSan and keep them filled with CO2 until they are used? I have 3 empty ones and figured I could use the same StarSan and do it all at once for later use.

star san=foam=o2.

 

[schematix]

i iodophor, then rinse with chlorinated tap water, then fill completely with chlorinated tap water, and then purge. i let them sit for another few minutes and then co2 purge again to get as much of the water out.

i usually store them for a few days like that. i store empty used kegs cold without opening them until i'm ready to clean/purge them.

 

[newuser12345]

So, I am brewing a NEIPA next and am wanting to move to fermenting in a 5 gallon keg to make transfers easier. I currently do 3.25 gallon batches so I have the headspace to do it.

The recipe obviously calls for dryhopping. How detrimental is it to open the top on days 1-5 to add the dry hops (or Cryo Hops & dry hops in this case). The yeast is still active, so is this introducing too much O2 for the yeast to handle at this stage?

the way homebrewers dry hop will always oxidize the beer.

 

[ca_baracus]

the way homebrewers dry hop will always oxidize the beer.

Any tips to combat that?

 

[newuser12345]

Any tips to combat that?

aside from spending thousands on commercial oxygen abatement equipment for that purpose, no. Some have tried extracts, but anyone telling you that its the same as fresh hops is lying to you.

 

[doug293cz]

the way homebrewers dry hop will always oxidize the beer.

Any tips to combat that?

aside from spending thousands on commercial oxygen abatement equipment for that purpose, no. Some have tried extracts, but anyone telling you that its the same as fresh hops is lying to you.

One of the ways I am planning to try out is to hang a dry hop bag in an empty keg that is connected to the blow off tube from the fermenter. Pushing all of the CO2 created from a fermentation thru a keg can take the residual O2 down to single digit ppb levels. Then closed transfer the beer to the purged keg with hops.

Brew on

 

[MSK_Chess]

aside from spending thousands on commercial oxygen abatement equipment for that purpose, no. Some have tried extracts, but anyone telling you that its the same as fresh hops is lying to you.

at last, something we may actually agree upon. One can tell a beer made with hop oils a mile away, it simply does not possess the same spectrum of flavours as one which utilises whole hops.

 

[passedpawn]

One of the ways I am planning to try out is to hang a dry hop bag in an empty keg that is connected to the blow off tube from the fermenter. Pushing all of the CO2 created from a fermentation thru a keg can take the residual O2 down to single digit ppb levels. Then closed transfer the beer to the purged keg with hops.

Brew on

That's a good idea.

 

[MSK_Chess]

One of the ways I am planning to try out is to hang a dry hop bag in an empty keg that is connected to the blow off tube from the fermenter. Pushing all of the CO2 created from a fermentation thru a keg can take the residual O2 down to single digit ppb levels. Then closed transfer the beer to the purged keg with hops.

Brew on

yup that would work. Don't you get like stainless steel hop baskets that people can use to dry hop in the Keg? Place one of them in and purge until you are ready to do a completely closed transfer should work, surely?

 

[day_trippr]

Does anyone pre-purge kegs with StarSan and keep them filled with CO2 until they are used? I have 3 empty ones and figured I could use the same StarSan and do it all at once for later use.

I started doing this last winter - before the first LODO thread
It's actually more convenient for me to split the purging effort from the kegging effort...

Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

yup that would work. Don't you get like stainless steel hop baskets that people can use to dry hop in the Keg? Place one of them in and purge until you are ready to do a completely closed transfer should work, surely?

Should work with either a SS basket or polyester hop sock. Right now I just have the hop sock.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

star san=foam=o2.

You aren't doing it right

I fill to just below the keg lid, put the lid in place, invert the keg, fill through the gas port and drain through the beer port until the drainage runs totally clear, even after rocking the keg a bit.

When I turn the keg up-right there is never any noise - it's totally filled.
And when I push the Star San out there's no foam left behind (why would there be?)

Cheers!

 

[MSK_Chess]

Should work with either a SS basket or polyester hop sock. Right now I just have the hop sock.

Brew on

Its good enough by the sound of it!

 

[h22lude]

You aren't doing it right

I fill to just below the keg lid, put the lid in place, invert the keg, fill through the gas port and drain through the beer port until the drainage runs totally clear, even after rocking the keg a bit.

When I turn the keg up-right there is never any noise - it's totally filled.
And when I push the Star San out there's no foam left behind (why would there be?)

Cheers!

Even if there was foam, continually adding more liquid StarSan will push the foam out the post until liquid starts coming out.

 

[jwalk4]

When I turn the keg up-right there is never any noise - it's totally filled.
And when I push the Star San out there's no foam left behind (why would there be?)

Cheers!

As long as you tip it and you dont hear or feel any bubble, then i think you're good.

Any foaming of star san on the way out, like beer foaming out the facet when a keg kicks will be bubbles of CO2. Not air.

 

[newuser12345]

As long as you tip it and you dont hear or feel any bubble, then i think you're good.

Any foaming of star san on the way out, like beer foaming out the facet when a keg kicks will be bubbles of CO2. Not air.

please review gas mixing laws before making statements like this.

 

[stpug]

the way homebrewers dry hop will always oxidize the beer.

Your blanket statement is false. Not all homebrewers dry hop the same way. There are methods of maintaining very low ppb levels in dry hopping. You still got a ways to go in your low oxygen knowledge. Keep reading.

 

[stpug]

aside from spending thousands on commercial oxygen abatement equipment for that purpose, no. Some have tried extracts, but anyone telling you that its the same as fresh hops is lying to you.

That's not accurate at all. Clearly you have not put much effort into low oxygen brewing practices. I have spent exactly $0 to get the results I desired.

 

[stpug]

Keep o2 under 1ppm, ideally half that at all phases of the brewing process (with the exception of immediately pre ferm). Failing to do so oxidizes the polyphenols that you want to keep to obtain the flavors associated with low oxygen brewing. Its really that simple. I'm sorry you feel threatened and encourage people to not engage when you are called out on flaws in the process that you are condoning. Most of the advice you are giving is simply quality assurance measures. Most of the benefits people are seeing are due to these QA measures, not low oxygen brewing as outlined in classical texts.

It's not polyphenols we're trying to retain. Again, your (lack of) knowledge on the subject shows. If you'd like to learn more then feel free to visit ******************** to become acquainted with the goal, and then you can start devising your own methodology of achieving such goals.

 

[Big Monk]

please review gas mixing laws before making statements like this.

Do you know what the overnight low is in the bay area brewer?

 

[day_trippr]

Even if there was foam, continually adding more liquid StarSan will push the foam out the post until liquid starts coming out.

Yes, as I said, I run Star San into the inverted keg until the output is totally free of bubbles even after rocking the keg, and there's not even a hint of a gurgle when turning the keg over, rocking/shaking it, whatever. It's a solid cylinder of fluid.

This works great as long as a full-length dip tube is properly located in its well.
Shortened or mis-located dip tubes need not apply...

Cheers!

 

[Bilsch]

But, yes, as I said, I run Star San into the inverted keg until the output is totally free of bubbles even after rocking the keg, and there's not even a hint of a gurgle when turning the keg over, rocking/shaking it, whatever. It's a solid cylinder of fluid.
Cheers!

I do similarly by filling from a kettle through the liquid post then tip the keg to the side and let the starsan flow out the gas post with an empty QD attached. There are a few bubbles but then it flows clear. I then attach the CO2 bottle QD and blow the solution back up into the kettle. I use a clear line and I don't get any bubbles. Starsan will foam but it takes mechanical motion to get it to do that.

 

[passedpawn]

It's not polyphenols we're trying to retain. Again, your (lack of) knowledge on the subject shows. If you'd like to learn more then feel free to visit ******************** to become acquainted with the goal, and then you can start devising your own methodology of achieving such goals.

If this is the "official" thread on HBT, it might be proper to state your goals and any other information here instead of always redirecting elsewhere. I'm sure there's a ton of info at that other site, and I don't mind the links, but if you're interested in furthering this topic, might be useful to post your goal here.

 

[Big Monk]

If this is the "official" thread on HBT, it might be proper to state your goals and any other information here instead of always redirecting elsewhere. I'm sure there's a ton of info at that other site, and I don't mind the links, but if you're interested in furthering this topic, might be useful to post your goal here.

The goal is for people who have questions to ask them here. A living FAQ/Q&A.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Since attempting LODO my brewhouse efficiency has increased. Why this should be the case I cannot say. Perhaps its because I now recirculate under the surface and introduce my sparging water directly under the surface too. I used to get about 70% now I am easily 75-80's almost the same as those guys that do a full volume BIAB. Perhaps its due to the Hochkurz mash schedule? I dunno, but its happened. My last beer was intended to be 1050, it ended up 1056! because of a too low setting on efficiency in my software inherited from previous no LODO batches.

 

[wobdee]

Saniclean = Starsan without the foam.

 

[stpug]

It's not polyphenols we're trying to retain. Again, your (lack of) knowledge on the subject shows. If you'd like to learn more then feel free to visit ******************** to become acquainted with the goal, and then you can start devising your own methodology of achieving such goals.

If this is the "official" thread on HBT, it might be proper to state your goals and any other information here instead of always redirecting elsewhere. I'm sure there's a ton of info at that other site, and I don't mind the links, but if you're interested in furthering this topic, might be useful to post your goal here.

@passedpawn You may have interpreted my post differently than intended. The "goal(s)" I refer to are oxygen mitigation to a low level throughout the entire brewing process - i.e. low oxygen brewing. The methodology is simply how you achieve those low levels. It's not written in stone, there are many ways, and many people have to make adjustments this way or that for their systems based on desires/abilities/accessibility/constraints/etc. It's important to have an understanding of the kinds of oxidative interactions that take place during the mash, and how quickly/slowly they happen to have a well informed opinion and be able to formulate a process that aims to mitigate that ingress.

As polyphenol REDUCTION is key to long term stability of beer, it's clear that @newuser12345 (who parades as an authority on the subject) doesn't know the subject they're talking about, and is instead simply here to berate other members and cause fear/uncertainty/doubt (FUD); take the focus away from furthering the subject at hand; or show enough intimidation so as to discourage an open discussion from users who may just be starting out or asking questions. Thus, aside from my postings to correct mis-information proliferated by this noobuser, I offer them nothing more than a simple suggestion to learn more about the topic of which they speak. You and I have already had words on this subject and I know where you stand. So it's up to regular forum members who care enough to stand up and aid in the moderation of this thread.

The "goal" of this thread, which I was not referring to, is as RPIScotty stated a couple posts back - A living FAQ/Q&A.

This is the first time I provide a link to anywhere else in this thread so it's a bit of a stretch to suggest I'm "always redirecting elsewhere". Regardless, there is too much information housed at ******************** (that's the second time) to disseminate here. If you desire a more thorough understanding of the science of brewing and oxidative interactions that take place, and why oxygen mitigation to a very low level throughout the entire process is important, then you'll either need to scour the interwebs and gather the resources yourself and read, or take the easy way and find them at ******************** (third time) in the LOB References section. The best part is that they are published scientific examinations of brewing processes that are largely related to oxygen throughout the brewing process. Be warned though, there are no "reply" buttons to push on those academic papers

....and remember, discourse, even ill-informed, is encouraged here at HBT.

 

[passedpawn]

Thanks for that. I'm interested in the subject and would like to see as much info here (HBT) as possible, but I understand that the vetted papers are out there for a deeper read on the subject.

 

[newuser12345]

just for clarities sake, which homebrewers here that purport to brew using low oxygen methods haveo2 measuring equipment?

 

[enkamania]

yup that would work. Don't you get like stainless steel hop baskets that people can use to dry hop in the Keg? Place one of them in and purge until you are ready to do a completely closed transfer should work, surely?

I use the http://www.clearbeerdraughtsystem.com/, been able to throw in three ounces without clogging or bits in the beer

 

[Die_Beerery]

just for clarities sake, which homebrewers here that purport to brew using low oxygen methods haveo2 measuring equipment?

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

http://www.myronl.com/PDF/data_sheets/pt5ds.pdf


Anyone have experience with this Dissolved O2 meter?