The Experiment

[Devin]

Sorry for the long post, but I want to start something where I can sort of record some results for some upcoming tests I am planning.

For a while now I have been dealing with an off-taste in all of my lighter brews. It is sort of a salty/mineral taste. I have been trying to chase it down and eliminate it with no real success. I discuss the taste a bit more in this thread.

Anyway, I have been building my own water profile with distilled water and Bru'n water. My tap water has chloramine, so I just started trying this distilled water thing. I have tried different levels of CaCl and gypsum and lactic acid to see if it is one of those additions that is causing it. The gypsum doesn't seem to be a contributor - I have made recipes where I didn't add any gypsum at all and I still got the flavor. The CaCl doesn't seem to be the culprit, neither, as I have made recipes with very low amounts as well as high amounts and I still get the flavor. I have also went with and without lactic acid. I have varied hops as well as grist recipes, but nothing seems to work.

Recently, I also had a band-aid flavor pop up in my brews that we fermented in a plastic bucket (not the same plastic bucket). Someone suggested I might have an infection. I also have read that cleaning plastic parts and letting them sit in water treated with chloramine can result in "absorption" of chloramine. Since reading this, I have started treating my cleaning water with campden. Anyway, this is something to note, but I am not focusing on the bandaid thing right now. I am just going to try and eliminate it from my "experiment".

The first part of my experiment was to rule out my kegging system causing an issue. So, my most recent IPA brew I bottled about a gallon of it and kegged the rest. The bottled and kegged beer both have this taste. The bottled beer has much better head retention, I did notice (just as a side point). So, I don't think that my kegging system has anything to do with the flavor.

Other thoughts for this weird flavor:

1. My LHBS has Rahr malt. That is what I use for my base malt. I have read that it provides a more acidic mash. Perhaps my mash ph is screwed up.

2. I BIAB, and in the process, I use a stainless steel vegetable steamer to keep the bag off the bottom. I have noticed a weird corrosion on the nut that used to hold the steamer handle. I have also noticed that the steamer seems to be forming a beerstone or something on it.

3. My CaCl comes from the same place. Perhaps I need to change the source of it.

4. I have suspected that my hops might have some issues.

Some more specifics on my process:

1. Single kettle/BIAB. As I mentioned, I build my own water.
2. Typically do 60 minute mashes around 149-152 for my lighter ales followed by a good squeeze session upon pulling the bag.
3. Typically do 60 minute boils. For all of my IPAs, I end with a hop steep. I usually let the wort cool to around 180-170 and throw some hops in and let it steep for up to 30 minutes.
4. Chill quickly with an immersion chiller.
5. Aerate with a siphon spray wort aerator, followed by a good frothing with a wine degasser (not using it in the degassing fashion).
6. I have a fermentation chamber where I usually ferment for 2 weeks in the low 60's.
7. Transfer to purged keg for dry hopping.

Now, on to the meat of it. As I have been chasing this, I have not been consistent with the recipe. So, I am going to use a simple recipe that pretty much is an offshoot of Yooper's Ruination clone:

13 lbs Rahr pale malt
1 lb C20
0.5 lb Carapils
.5 lb corn sugar

1 oz Magnum at 60
1 oz Centennial at 30
1 oz Centennial at 10
1 oz Centennial at FO
2 oz Centennial dry hop (5 days)

Safale-05 yeast.

For the water, I have been pondering using my own tap water and treating with Campden. I have a water report from the county. However, I think I will stick with using distilled just to keep the variables to a minimum. I am going to add salts to try and achieve the pale ale profile in Bru'n water.

Mash at 151 for 60
Ferment at 63 for 1 week, then at 68 for 1 week

So, that will be the "base" recipe. I am going to just make this over and over again until I find out what is causing this. I am only going to use glass carboys for fermentation.

So, for the first version of the experiment, I am just going to brew the above with my standard methods, but pulling the vegetable steamer out of the mix. I am also going to try and account for the "acidity" of the Rahr malt using some suggestions I have read from some other sites (read: I won't be adding lactic acid this first pass).

This brew probably wont happen until early next year, but I have already purchased all new hops (from a different supplier), and have the other supplies ready.

If this doesn't do the trick, my next step will be to try a new CaCl source, or maybe brew this with extract to see if the grains themselves are causing it. We will see.

I will update as this evolves. Wish me luck!

 

[CB_in_Tokyo]

From reading this and taking a look at your previous thread, you stated that you only started noticing this after building your own water, why are you running the experiment with the same water?

Oh yeah: Good luck

 

[Devin]

It isn't the "same" water. As I have said, I have adjusted the amounts of salt additions in other experiments. I was using RO water for a while as the base, but switched to the distilled because I suspected that the RO water from the store was not really good quality. But even with the distilled, I ran through quite a few recipes where I was adjusting salt additions to try and determine the effect.

My tap water is pretty soft and fairly alkaline. I would have to adjust it. I would assume that the tap water would change and fluctuate over time, so I wouldn't ever really know what the base is (unless I had a sample analyzed for each brew). That is why I am sticking with distilled water as the base - to try and eliminate any fluctuations in the tap water.

Edit: Also, the time that I started building my own water coincided with my transition to all-grain. I had ditched my tap water during my extract brewing after having found that the water was treated with chloramine. I brewed a couple of extract brews using distilled only and they turned out awesome. But, when I transitioned to all-grain, I started building a water profile for the mash.

 

[pdxal]

How about simplifying and treating your tap water with Campden tablets or filtering it to remove the chloramine? For lighter colored beers you would perhaps have to acidify, but for darker beers you wouldn't likely have to do anything.

 

[Devin]

I might just do that. I haven't decided yet. Here is my water profile:

Constituent Average (mg/L)
Calcium 24.25
Magnesium 7.19
Bicarbonate 115.0
Sulfate 5.16
Sodium 18.35
Chloride 6.55

ph = 8.01

I might just use this and treat with Campden and salts/acid to reach the correct profile, but I don't want natural fluctuations in ion concentrations screwing stuff up for me - at least until I figure this out. That is why I was thinking of just sticking with the distilled for now. Then I know what I am starting with - not using what was measured 8 months ago. Also, just to note that this salty/minerally/sharp taste is only noticeable in my lighter beers. My stouts turn out great. My red ales show just a hint of it. All of my lighter ales suffer from it, though.

It could be something related to mash ph. I have thought about getting a ph meter - but it sounds like getting one that is repeatable and trustworthy is going to be quite expensive and pretty difficult to maintain. I am going to get some colorphast strips during this experiment for comparison purposes only (between batches). I know that they are supposedly not super accurate in giving an absolute value, but they should be good for comparisons to see effects of things.

 

[rmyurick]

Some yeasts, like 1028, can give a minerally-taste. There's a lot of factors that could be involved. Do you have a local HB club or local brewpub where you could go get a brewer to taste it?

 

[Devin]

The only yeasts I have used for my lighter ales are S-05, WLP007, and WLP001.

There is a local homebrew club. I may try to ping them again (past questions sent to them haven't really turned up much - the club isn't very organized. I see emails from them from time to time, but I am not sure that they really do much together any more). The is a new beer co-op that has started here in town also. They have pushed and lobbied to finally allow a brewery to be built in this county. A new brewery is being built with some help from a brewer down in the Albuquerque area. Anyway, I will try to ping them again and see what happens.

 

[altimate_one]

Just my $0.02 and that may be all its worth, but try replacing your vinyl hose as well. I try not to use it much longer than 1 year. Especially if you find yourself soaking it in the Star-San.

One other thing that may show signs of improvement is to bring your water to a boil prior to introducing it to the grains.

 

[pdxal]

Man, I hope Martin Brungard chimes in here with some information.
IMHO, I wouldn't worry about "natural fluctuations" in ion concentrations in water supply. Also, you could boil and decant to eliminate that bicarbonate in your tap water.
I'd like to see what your water recipe was too for these pale ales with salty/mineral flavor.

 

[alaskana]

I'm just going to throw this out there but have you tried brewing with store bought spring water?

I know you're throwing your water profile 'to the wind' when using spring/mineral water, but since you've seemingly tried everything else why not try that as well just to rule it out? I brew with only spring water and it (imho) increased the quality of the taste of my homebrew markedly, especially since I used to brew with unfiltered tap water. Starting from a blank palette and modifying my water profile is something I want to eventually dabble in, but I'm not at a point where I feel comfortable enough yet formulating my own brewing water since I've heard it can be notoriously difficult to get it right.

With clean tasting natural spring water, at least you're starting with a 'natural balance' of minerals, something perhaps akin to what old time brewers used to use before the advent of modern water altering techniques.

These are just observations of my own experiences with brewing with spring water and of course your mileage my vary, but I do want to help you in your journey to brew 'off-flavor free' lighter brews.

 

[Devin]

Man, I hope Martin Brungard chimes in here with some information.
IMHO, I wouldn't worry about "natural fluctuations" in ion concentrations in water supply. Also, you could boil and decant to eliminate that bicarbonate in your tap water.
I'd like to see what your water recipe was too for these pale ales with salty/mineral flavor.

Martin chimed in on my salty taste thread.

Here you go for the water profiles that I have tried. The early beers were based on suggestions from the water primer on this site:

Beer 1 - IPA. Used 8.5 gallons of RO water. Added 1.75 tsp CaCl and 1.75 tsp gypsum. Also added 2 ml of Lactic acid.

Beer 2 - IIPA. Used 8 gallons of RO water. Added 2 tsp CaCl and 3.5 tsp gypsum. 2.5 ml of lactic acid.

Beer 3 - IPA. Used 8 gallons of RO water. Added 1.75 tsp CaCl and 3 tsp gypsum. 2 ml of lactic acid.

Beer 4 - Pale Ale. 8 gallons RO. 1.75 tsp CaCl and 1 tsp gypsum. 2 ml lactic acid.

Beer 5 - Identical to Beer 2.

Here is where I started suspecting something with the store RO machine and started using distilled.

Beer 6 - Pale Ale. 7.75 gallons DI. 1.5 tsp CaCl and 0.5 tsp gypsum. 1.75 ml lactic acid.

Here is where I started using Bru'n water for my salt and acid additions. I also purchased a scale that could measure the salts.

Beer 7 - IPA. 8 gal DI. 3.2 grams CaCl. 12 grams gypsum. No acid. Bru'n water indicated that I would be ok on ph.

Beer 8 - Red Ale (my reds don't usually have the salt flavor, but this one did somewhat). 8 gallons DI. 4.8 grams CaCl. No acid.

Beer 9 - IPA. 8.25 gal DI. 3.3 grams CaCl. 0.8 grams gypsum. 1 mL lactic acid.

All of those beers had this salty/minerally tone to them. During this period, I also made a handful of stouts using as similar process (usually only adding a small amount of CaCl and nothing else). The stouts turned out phenomenol. I also had a red in this period that didn't seem to suffer from the salty/minerally tone.

 

[TimmyWit]

Man, I feel for you. It is painful to read about the struggles you have been going through for a good 6 months now. It seems like we can eliminate a few things at this point:

- Your water source is not the problem. You have sourced different water and modified it multiple ways yet you have the same problem.

- Your ingredients are not the problem. You have sourced different ingredients yet you still have the same problem.

The only thing you haven't changed out is your gear. Someone mentioned it in your other thread but it was dismissed because you don't use it for cooking. But, maybe the metal makeup of your vegetable steamer is causing the off flavor. If it is a steamer, it isn't intended to have something soaked or boiled in it so maybe you are getting some leeching. Metallic may be a difficult flavor to identify especially if it is subtle.

Hopefully you're still plugging away at this although I know you must be frustrated. I hope you're able to find a resolution soon!

 

[Devin]

I still haven't sourced a different base malt - that is planned in these upcoming experiments as well. But, the first thing I am going to try is to remove the steamer, as well as replace all of the plastic and vinyl components in my system (I don't think that they are causing the salty/mineral taste - but I have been getting hints of band-aid flavors in my recent brews. I read on this site that choramine can actually infiltrate plastic/vinyl over time if you let it sit for long periods of time, which I used to do when I sanitized).

It will be a bit before I start this, though. My next brew up is Brandon O's Graff - which I am using extract for.

 

[masaba]

There is a lot on this thread, and I must admit that I didn't read it all.

However, I have been listening to Jamil's podcast and he says that one of the main off-flavors he tastes in home-brewed beer is a metallic or chalky flavor due to over-salted water. Have you tried just tasting your water after your mineral additions to see if the flavor shows up? I'm not sure if this would even work, but it might.

Edit: reading back now I see that you have ruled out water as the source of the problem. In that case, I am stumped.

 

[BrewerinBR]

I read this thread and have been scratching my head wondering what this could be. I read it again and have a single question, your single kettle is what material? Aluminum or stainless or other?

 

[Devin]

Stainless steel kettle.

 

[BrewerinBR]

Stainless steel kettle.

Ends my thinking that perhaps your getting a a reaction from the mash or water and your kettle, but with stainless steel that is not likely unless it has obvious corrosion or pits .... I am not a BIAB brewer so this may be dumb but do you use the same bag or change it for each brew?

 

[Devin]

My kettle is spotless. No corrosion that I can see. I wash with PBW after every brew. It looks great. I am really hoping that it is this stupid vegetable steamer. As noted, I did notice some strange looking corrosion type stuff on it recently.

Same bag, although I did change it once during this period as I noticed a hole in the first one. I wondered if my bag-cleaning was causing something. I would just throw the bag in the laundry to clean it. After the laundry, I would boil it in plain water to help further rinse any residual soap from the bag. I don't think that it is causing the salty/minerally taste, but I wonder about the recent band-aid flavors. If choramine can supposedly "infect" plastic and vinyl - then what about fabric? I wash it in my chloramine-filled tap water.

Thanks again everyone for the discussion. I will update this once I get it rolling.

 

[The_Glue]

Stainless steel kettle.

Do you scrub it before brew sessions? I pretty much never clean my boil kettle because it smells like iron after some scrubbing. I just rinse it with water.

 

[Devin]

I scrub it after brew sessions. Never thought that the kettle could be the cause of this. I use a green scrubbie and hot water with PBW. I don't usually scrub too hard, but I have had a few brews where I did have to get after the bottom of the kettle a bit to remove some gunk.

 

[The_Glue]

Do you scrub it before brew sessions? I pretty much never clean my boil kettle because it smells like iron after some scrubbing. I just rinse it with water.

Btw there is this thread too:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/removing-metallic-flavors-beer-using-edta-156935/

I used to fight an aftertaste for about a year, in the end it disappeared when i got an autosyphon and starsan instead of sucking on a tube and using an active oxygen based sanitizer. I did all kinds of water adjustments before with no results.

 

[Devin]

I don't use PBW as a sanitizer - only a cleaner. I use StarSan for the things that I sanitize. I don't sanitize anything related to the brew kettle - as I feel that the heat during the boil will do the job of killing nasties.

Interesting thread you pointed out above. However, this isn't a metallic taste. I have tasted a beer that had been dry hopped with some steel marbles to weigh the hops down. The brewer didn't realize the balls were not stainless and viola - metallic beer. My lighter beers don't taste metallic. It is hard to describe. Salty/Minerally is the best I got for a description. I have tried contacting the local homebrew club to see if anybody would taste one of my brews to help identify the "taste", but they haven't responded.

I transfer my beer from my carboys using pressure by blowing through a sterile siphon filter. When I brew in a bucket, I just use a line filled with star-san solution to start the siphon process.

 

[sputnam]

Martin chimed in on my salty taste thread.

Here you go for the water profiles that I have tried. The early beers were based on suggestions from the water primer on this site:

Beer 1 - IPA. Used 8.5 gallons of RO water. Added 1.75 tsp CaCl and 1.75 tsp gypsum. Also added 2 ml of Lactic acid.

Beer 2 - IIPA. Used 8 gallons of RO water. Added 2 tsp CaCl and 3.5 tsp gypsum. 2.5 ml of lactic acid.

Beer 3 - IPA. Used 8 gallons of RO water. Added 1.75 tsp CaCl and 3 tsp gypsum. 2 ml of lactic acid.

Beer 4 - Pale Ale. 8 gallons RO. 1.75 tsp CaCl and 1 tsp gypsum. 2 ml lactic acid.

Beer 5 - Identical to Beer 2.

Here is where I started suspecting something with the store RO machine and started using distilled.

Beer 6 - Pale Ale. 7.75 gallons DI. 1.5 tsp CaCl and 0.5 tsp gypsum. 1.75 ml lactic acid.

Here is where I started using Bru'n water for my salt and acid additions. I also purchased a scale that could measure the salts.

Beer 7 - IPA. 8 gal DI. 3.2 grams CaCl. 12 grams gypsum. No acid. Bru'n water indicated that I would be ok on ph.

Beer 8 - Red Ale (my reds don't usually have the salt flavor, but this one did somewhat). 8 gallons DI. 4.8 grams CaCl. No acid.

Beer 9 - IPA. 8.25 gal DI. 3.3 grams CaCl. 0.8 grams gypsum. 1 mL lactic acid.

All of those beers had this salty/minerally tone to them. During this period, I also made a handful of stouts using as similar process (usually only adding a small amount of CaCl and nothing else). The stouts turned out phenomenol. I also had a red in this period that didn't seem to suffer from the salty/minerally tone.

have you ever tried store bought spring water and not added all that other stuff?
Fortunately I live in an area with awesome tap water, I did a test once with tap vs. spring water, tap won. But, I realize everyone isn't as fortunate. But seriously just some plain ole water....you've tried virtually everything else.

 

[Devin]

No, I haven't just tried spring water from the store since I went all-grain. I did try it when I was doing extract - that is eventually what led me to find out that I have chloramine in my tap water. I could try the spring water again, but I just wouldn't know what I had, and I am guessing that it wouldn't be too repeatable.

 

[The_Glue]

Maybe you should try to "brew" a brewkit, if even that fails then we know it can be only a water related issue or some kind of infection.

 

[watermelon83]

Only two brews into the all grain thing but, I use five gallon jugs Home Depot sells. Absopure I believe. My ph starts in the low sevens, salts bring it to the mid sixes, and grain gets me to 5.3. I use the Milwaukee pH and temperature unit. Works great, easy to care for just clean in off in tap water and store it in storage solution (saline I think). Relatively cheap as well.

 

[McKnuckle]

It strikes me that your salt additions seem a bit high in general based on what I've been using (successfully) with spring or distilled water. Here is an example:

Beer style is an ESB (7.5 lbs 2 row, 5 oz C15, 3 oz C120)

6.25 gallons Poland Spring mash and sparge combined
1.8g gypsum (0.5 tsp)
1.1g Epsom (0.25 tsp)
4.2g CaCl (1 tsp)
1.75 ml lactic acid
mash pH approx 5.40
Ions as follows:
Ca 71, Mg 5.6, Na 5, Cl 92, SO4 63

Beer is soft and malty and true to style with no odd flavors. I offer this only as a point of comparison in case it helps you.

 

[Devin]

I finally got around to starting this little exbeeriment today. I had to tweak the recipe at the last second, as I hadn't realized that I was out of C20. I also changed the hop schedule a bit from the original one I posted. Anyway, I will keep this recipe the same throughout the process.

13.5 lbs Rahr Pale Malt
0.5 lbs C60
0.5 lbs CaraPils
0.5 lbs Corn Sugar

1 oz Magnum at 60
1 oz Cascade at 30
1 oz Centennial at 30
1 oz Cascade at 10
1 oz Centennial at 10
1 oz Cascade at FO
1 oz Centennial at FO
1 oz Cascade Dry hop
1 oz Centennial Dry hop

Safale S-05 Yeast
Mash at 151 for 60 min
Ferment at 64 for 2 weeks

So, for this first try at the experiment, I went ahead and just used my tap water. I treated it with Campden and made salt and acid additions according to the Pale Ale profile in Bru'n water. I did a full volume mash (I BIAB). I did not use the stainless steel colander this time - as I was suspecting that was causing some issues. Also, a week before the brew I hit my BK with some BKF. Turns out it wasn't as "spotless" as I thought it was. The BKF really brightened it up. I did this after reading some stuff on stainless steel passivation. Anyway, I don't think this has anything to do with it - but it did brighten the kettle up.

The brew session turned out great. I hit numbers across the board for volume, OG, temps, etc. During the whole process, I was tasting the water, and later the wort. I never had any hints of this salty/minerally thing. Actually, the wort tasted great right before I pitched the yeast. Now the waiting starts. ;-)

 

[Devin]

Just sampled this first experimental beer. SUCCESS! Salty/minerally weird taste is gone! I am not sure exactly what it was - but I DON'T CARE!!!! Woo-hoo! This stuff is delicious!

 

[TimmyWit]

Awesome! No need to figure out what the source of the problem was. Just throw that colander away and forget the whole thing ever happened

 

[Devin]

Guess I spoke to soon. The weird flavor is coming back to this brew. I am wondering if it is just the nature of the hops. I did just leave the hops in the keg this time after dry-hopping (I don't always do that, but I did this time). The creeping back of the flavor made me think it might be an infection, but it didn't affect my Graff nor my darker brews, so I don't think that is it.

Anyway, I reached out to the local homebrew club again and got a couple of responses this time. I guess that there are few BJCP judges in the mix. Hopefully I can get one of them to try it and see what they think.