The cure for your short hose troubles

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camiller

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i did 4 glasses back to back
The last time I read of someone with a similar, baffling foam problem, it turned out the Out dip tube had a hole in it...

Cheers!
I have also heard of there being a plastic bur inside the disconnect causing foaming problems. You might try disassembling the disconnect and inspecting it.
 

dontspamjay

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I'm having foamy first pours out of a kegerator with a two faucet tower. I have a tower cooling blower fan, but that hasn't stopped the problem. I serve at around 10-12 psi. The lines are probably around 3/16" by 4' from kegcowboy.com. Perfect pours after the first.

Would this approach solve my problem or is it just meant for high carbed brews that would foam on every pour if not for the extra resistance?
 

CidahMastah

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I'm having foamy first pours out of a kegerator with a two faucet tower. I have a tower cooling blower fan, but that hasn't stopped the problem. I serve at around 10-12 psi. The lines are probably around 3/16" by 4' from kegcowboy.com. Perfect pours after the first.

Would this approach solve my problem or is it just meant for high carbed brews that would foam on every pour if not for the extra resistance?
Should help. 4' is too short IMO without enough line restriction. Choice is either to add these, or push your lines up in length to 10 feet and cut back until you get better pours.
 

dontspamjay

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Should help. 4' is too short IMO without enough line restriction. Choice is either to add these, or push your lines up in length to 10 feet and cut back until you get better pours.
I think these inserts would be easier than for me to re-run the beer lines. I don't have my tower came pre-assembled, so I don't have any faucet wrenches or anything else I may need to replace the lines. Plus, I ran the beer lines into my tower cooler hose as shown in the post below:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/cure-your-short-hose-troubles-100151/

Thanks for the suggestion. I think I'm going to give it a shot.
 

estoppel

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Neither Grainger nor McMaster ship to Canada. Any HBT'er out there wanna order me some and I'll paypal you for the cost and postage up to Canada?
 

jcran17

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Neither Grainger nor McMaster ship to Canada. Any HBT'er out there wanna order me some and I'll paypal you for the cost and postage up to Canada?
I was going to pick some up from McMaster and would be happy to send them your way. Just sent you a PM.
 

Alucard1983

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hey guys.. ready for the orgasm.. Acklands Grainger is the canadian version of the us company...
ive been doing research and here is is. from AG

NOZZLE MIX LUER SLIP 6.3MM 10/BG
Product # LCT98454
Manufacturer # 98454

heres the link its not live

hXXps://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AGIPortalWeb/WebSource/ProductDisplay/globalProductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=LCT98454

please change XX to tt
 

estoppel

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Thanks bud. I did know that acklands was here, but they do not carry part# 98623 and I was uncertain if #98454 would work.
 

cccoker

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Several members were interested in a stainless steel version of these twisty things (known in industry as in-line static mixers). Found a couple of places that sell them, but if you were complaining about a hypothetical $14 a piece from that other guy, don't bother clicking on links:

http://www.coleparmer.com/Category/In_Line_Static_Mixers/3220

http://www.nordson.com/en-us/divisions/efd/products/tah/static-mixers/Pages/metal-mixers.aspx

Another plastic free alternative, but still pricy -- upgrade your faucet to something like these from Micromatic ($98):
http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-beer/taps-faucets-pid-4933ROTO-V.html

I've since upgraded my system with 3 of these faucets (and 1 nitro/stout). They work very well. Can easily adjust from high flow to an almost no flow by rotating the knob. This will allowing you to compensate for just about any CO2 pressure, producing as much or as little head as you want. FYI my setup has these, with 6ft of 3/16 inch tubing, and I've been able to carbonate and serve up to 20psi at 36-38 deg F (haven't tried higher, but I believe it will still work great). I can still pour a pint with less than 1/2 in of head if I want. Only downside is it will pour slowly at these conditions.

Micromatic also sells a $34 dollar add on flow control (goes between shank and your current faucet). I haven't tried but looks like it should work in a similar way:
http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-beer/taps-faucets-pid-FCA-A.html
 

forcabrew

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So I've been using these for a while now but I always forget to take them out before my oxyclean and star San soaks. Anything I should be worried about?
 

day_trippr

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So I've been using these for a while now but I always forget to take them out before my oxyclean and star San soaks. Anything I should be worried about?
I dunno - early onset Alzheimers, maybe? ;)

It's probably fine as long as you don't do the Star San soak for more than the minimum time required - and then give everything a good rinsing. But that kinda defeats using a no-rinse sanitizer, eh?

I wouldn't recommend soaking Delrin in the low pH (~ 2.5 at recommended solution) that Star San provides for extended periods, if anything is going to cause stuff to leach out, it'd be that...

Cheers!
 

agenthucky

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So I've been using these for a while now but I always forget to take them out before my oxyclean and star San soaks. Anything I should be worried about?
I ran an experiment with our spectrometer a few months back. I put a piece of the delrin in non-diluted start san. Over a few days I didn't notice anything but it's still on my desk and the piece of delrin is almost all gone. Pretty much dissolved over a few months.
 

starrfish

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What's the ph on non diluted star-san? I use rubbing alcohol on them "when" I break down the kegs, about ever 6 uses or so, and flush keg with star-san every time I change keg.
 

BeachBeerBoo

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I put one in the shank on a Wit pressurized to 17psig. Foams even worse now. Using 5' of 3/16" line from Kegconnection with a Perlick 525SS. Poured three straight glasses of foam.
 

CidahMastah

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I put one in the shank on a Wit pressurized to 17psig. Foams even worse now. Using 5' of 3/16" line from Kegconnection with a Perlick 525SS. Poured three straight glasses of foam.
I would use 2-3 with that psi, still it might be not enough restriction
 

raouliii

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...... I put a piece of the delrin in non-diluted start san. Over a few days I didn't notice anything but it's still on my desk and the piece of delrin is almost all gone. Pretty much dissolved over a few months.
This bothers me.

I have a mixer installed in each of my cornys but I don't disassemble for every cleaning. I don't rinse after running starsan thru them either. I'm not comfortable with even the slightest chance of any leaching of this plastic into my keg/beer/mouth/body. I use one mixer with 6' of 3/16" beer line and get great pours at 12-14psi.

I've been thinking about other economical options. Has anyone just added a smooth stainless rod to the diptube? I would guess that the diameter, length and smoothness would be the determining factors in how much friction would be introduced. Given the 1/4"/0.250" id, I was thinking a 3/16"/0.1875", 5mm/0.197" or 6mm/0.236" rod might create an equivalent resistance to the mixer. I know nothing of fluid dynamics, so I don't have any idea how this friction equivalency would be calculated using the physical variables.

I plan to purchase rods with my next mcmaster order and test.

Edit: Did a few calculations and a solid 1/8" rod reduces the cross sectional area of a 1/4"ID diptube to 75% of the original. 4mm =>60%, 3/16" =>44%, 5mm =>38%, 6mm =>11% Not sure what that tells me. I don't know how to calculate the resulting flow resistance. I've only been able to find standard resistances for standard beer line diameters but no calculator to actually determine those resistance figures.
 

BeachBeerBoo

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Haha. Okay, make sure you insert the swizzle sticks in the dip tube AFTER you insert the dip tube in the keg. Just learned that the hard way after losing 3 sticks in the keg. Whoops.
 

itrider

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Installed the Grainger part last night in my kegs. Wow! What a huge difference! Thanks for the tips.

Note: I have to IPA's on and a Wheat. I used 2 inserts per keg and they work, but very slowly (not complaining). I definitely should have started with just trying a single insert in the IPA's first.
 

cwi

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Edit: Did a few calculations and a solid 1/8" rod reduces the cross sectional area of a 1/4"ID diptube to 75% of the original. 4mm =>60%, 3/16" =>44%, 5mm =>38%, 6mm =>11% Not sure what that tells me. I don't know how to calculate the resulting flow resistance. I've only been able to find standard resistances for standard beer line diameters but no calculator to actually determine those resistance figures.
More important is the ratio of total surface area (tube and rod) to cross sectional area. This is why 3/16>1/4>3/8 line with respect to frictional coeffecient/length.

Rather than stainless rod/wire, I was thinking of using teflon cord (smooth) as an insert into beer line (accuflex bev-seal, of course). This would allow using 1/4" (or larger) for proper flow (cross section), while gaining improved friction/foot. It would work in 3/16" too, but flow (cross section) would be reduced. Given how good the bev-seal line is, just using more 3/16" line is a simpler option, but shorter hoses would be nice, so would more flow. Have you notice how much better most bar taps flow?

As for solvents- Teflon (PTFE) has no solvents that a homebrewer would ever expose gear to, or any other industrial use either for that matter. I don't think it leaches or off gasses anything either, except at very high temps.
 

narkotic

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Well, I stumbled upon this thread while trying to figure out way way to lower the amount of foam produced by my new kegerator and thought, amazing! I placed an order for some of these devices and waited until the weekend to install.

Since I'm not using corny kegs, the hose is crimped to the end nut that goes to the sankey so there was no way I was going to be able to slip this in there. I then went to the faucet end of things and was able to remove the hose there since it's fitting was barbed. After all of that, the interior diameter of the hose is too small for one of these!

Bummer... Even at 5-6PSI I get tons of foam, what gives? I've purged the keg and re-filled, and use a very nice dual-regular setup...
 
OP
pjj2ba

pjj2ba

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Well, I stumbled upon this thread while trying to figure out way way to lower the amount of foam produced by my new kegerator and thought, amazing! I placed an order for some of these devices and waited until the weekend to install.

Since I'm not using corny kegs, the hose is crimped to the end nut that goes to the sankey so there was no way I was going to be able to slip this in there. I then went to the faucet end of things and was able to remove the hose there since it's fitting was barbed. After all of that, the interior diameter of the hose is too small for one of these!

Bummer... Even at 5-6PSI I get tons of foam, what gives? I've purged the keg and re-filled, and use a very nice dual-regular setup...
Try the next size smaller. Beer line has a smaller diameter than the dip tube. That's what I put in my 3 ft picnic tap line that I use to pull the occasional sample from untapped kegs. Work patiently, this was much harder to do as the inserts are easy to break and the fit is tighter in the beer line.
 

pelipen

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I also don't like the potential for leaching from Acetal/Delrin. Yes I know the source materials are probably of high quality, and the food grade Delrin has the potential to be the same product, but with a guarantee. Industrial applications tend to buy the cheapest grades possible.

For those who are interested in a food grade product, I contacted Stamixco for some of their options. They have Polypropylene mixers which they recommend for food applications. They also have PTFE (Teflon) at a much higher price, but seriously if anyone is that worried, consider a new hobby.

The Polypropylene is 0.25" x 4" (6.35 mm x 101.6 mm) with 16 mixing elements.
http://www.stamixco-usa.com/products/helical-static-mixer/default.html
(They have some really cool mixing stuff.)

I'm trying to find out if they have a min order quantity or price brackets <100. If the price is reasonable enough for me to order, I might be willing to put a group order together.
 

cwi

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They have Polypropylene mixers which they recommend for food applications. They also have PTFE (Teflon) at a much higher price, but seriously if anyone is that worried, consider a new hobby.
The teflon may be worth the extra money, or the delrin and the possible health effects. If polyproylene behaves the same in this application as it does in thermal underwear, it is a flavor/smell sponge. Just google 'polypro thermal underwear stink' if you have no first hand experience with this notorious property.
 

zachattack

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Most gladware/ziplock tupperware type stuff is polypropylene, it's not that bad. Woven cloth has a ton more surface area to trap stuff compared to molded plastic. I'd say along with polyethylene, polypro is generally the food-safe plastic of choice.
 

cwi

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Most gladware/ziplock tupperware type stuff is polypropylene, it's not that bad. Woven cloth has a ton more surface area to trap stuff compared to molded plastic. I'd say along with polyethylene, polypro is generally the food-safe plastic of choice.
Vinyl hose is bad enough at absorbing flavors, I suspect the polypro mixers would be worse. As long as you don't run a light beer after a heavy one, you might not notice. The beer that sits in the line has a way of picking up quite a bit of flavor from the lines (and presumably these mixers), though. It makes pouring samples problematic as the most heavily flavorized part is what makes it into the sample.
 

zachattack

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Why would you think polypropylene would hold more flavor than vinyl? I'm not trying to argue, just curious. I try to stay away from vinyl in food/beer applications.
 

cwi

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See three posts back- polypro is known for its smell trapping properties. I am not sure about it relative to vinyl. I was just guessing, which is why I said "I suspect" polypro>vinyl. It doubt it is any less than vinyl, which already holds/releases too much residual flavor, and plastic taste, for me.

A good sequence for correcting foam is:
Set the proper psi for the temp and vols of co2.
Check faucet/tower/shank temps and get them close to keg temps.
Start with at least the proper length of line. Add more if still foaming until the flow becomes an issue, or reduce length if no foam and flow is an issue.
Check all connections for possible cavitation/nucleation issues.
Decrease the serving temp and corresponding psi (and pour into a warmer glass, if you are one of those types).

Personally, I don't know why people go to all this trouble to have/fix short hose issues, especially if they are using vinyl tubing. Is there a short hose award I don't know about? If there is, the prize should be a Porsche.

I wouldn't mess around with any of this nonsense for normal beer pressures. I would just add a few more feet of accuflex bev-seal ultra barrier tubing. It is much smaller overall than vinyl and coils tightly, so 25ft shouldn't be a size issue. It also doesn't funk up the beer after long periods, or pick up flavors, so the longer length is better than a shorter length of vinyl.

The only thing I may try is some teflon rope/cord inserted into some larger barrier tubing (1/4", 3/8") to increase the surface area while still keeping the flow high and velocity low (another cause of foaming). Trying to serve soda and cider at ~30psi is problematic. Hopefully the SS Perlick flow control will be available soon.
 

zachattack

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Thanks for the answer. I do use accuflex bev seal, and I haven't had any problems just using the line to balance the pressure. I just don't think it's fair to say polypropylene is known for its smell-trapping properties just because cloth woven out of it retains odor. Any synthetic underwear retains odor, but that doesn't mean that a solid piece of polypropylene will. Polyester, nylon, spandex underwear will do the same thing, yet polyester is also used in plastic soda and beer bottles and it cleans up just fine.
 

cwi

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Thanks for the answer. I do use accuflex bev seal, and I haven't had any problems just using the line to balance the pressure. I just don't think it's fair to say polypropylene is known for its smell-trapping properties just because cloth woven out of it retains odor. Any synthetic underwear retains odor, but that doesn't mean that a solid piece of polypropylene will. Polyester, nylon, spandex underwear will do the same thing, yet polyester is also used in plastic soda and beer bottles and it cleans up just fine.
If cloth not woven out of polypropylene doesn't trap odors, and cloth that is made of polypro does, I would say it is fair to assume that polypro is the cause.
There are other polyester thermal fabrics that are much, much better than polypro with respect to odor, but almost none better thermally. To be fair, I have read that some of it is related to bacteria living inside the fibers, which is why some impregnate polypro with silver to inhibit bacteria, but much of it is due to retention.

The polyester used in soda bottles is the same used to line bev-seal barrier line, PETE, which is specially formulated to resist permeability and flavor transfer. That is why I continually suggest that using longer lines of superior tubing is preferable to shorter lines of inferior tubing.

Having said that, I don't understand the desire to make a system with shorter lines, even when using barrier line, by adding complications into the mix. I suggest using the proper length of barrier line, even for a travel rig or sample tap. A 25ft coil is very manageable, and cleans easily. You could even ghetto rig a jockey box if needed.
 

zachattack

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Fair enough. I just brought it up because I've had my fair share of stinky polyester underwear. But I have no experience with polypropylene clothing so maybe it's much worse. But it is about bacteria living in the fabric, which hopefully wouldn't be the case for a kegerator! Either way I agree with you. I have 20 foot coils and with a few zip ties they tuck in nicely.
 

cwi

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But it is about bacteria living in the fabric
It is partially about bacteria. Polypro itself retains odors. A side effect of its wicking property prevents oils (like stinky rancid BO ones) from being easily removed with detergents/soaps. The fibers provide a home for odor producing bacteria.

Only the odor trapping/transfer property would be in effect for keg lines, unless there was a sanitation issue. In that case, cleaning the mixer sticks might require special attention to ensure there is no residue on them harboring things. Critters in the lines is major cause of funky beer at bars.
 
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