The case for protein rests

[DrewsBrews]

BTW, if you are interested in step mashes, read Noonan's "New Brewing Lager Beer". But as it has been said in this thread many times, many of the steps are not really necessary or may even hurt with modern malts.

I burned through that one a month or so ago - got it as a birthday present. Man, is that dry reading, but there's a ton of info there. I remember his comments about avoiding the more complicated decoctions with modified malt. I also remember parts about how some styles, such as Pilsners and Dunkels (I think?) benefit from decoction mashing because it gives the finished beer a richer, "maltier" flavor more like they were back before modified malts came into play.

I'm working through "Radical Brewing" by Randy Mosher and just finished the part about decoction mashing. His thoughts seem to be similar to Noonan's. Although I get the impression that Mosher feels single and double decoctions are worth the effort if the original style called for it. He also suggests work-arounds that will result in somewhat similar properties if you choose to go that route.

I'm hooked on the hobby as a whole. I got into it for sh_ts and giggles, but now I want to try everything time permits me. That's the biggest driver behind doing decoctions even if they are more work. Well, when I get AG going anyway.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I did my first decoction on my last beer. I've used melanoidin malt a few times, and I'd like to see if it's a workable substitute for decoctions, or if there really is no substitute!

 

[Mindflux]

I didn't see anyone really touch this issue but protein rests are (IMHO) pretty much a thing of the past. Today's modified malts (with the exception of wheat and a few others) do not require the rests that are outlined above.

I know I've read this in a number of places.. I just can't seem to cite any of them currently.

 

[Brewpastor]

I have done decoctions and enjoyed the results. The degree to which it made a big difference is hard to say. I think it did, but that could be wishful tasting after all that effort. I do know that I have judged a series of contests lagers in which a guy who always does decoction brewing consistantly lost to the same step masher. Each used top quality ingredients and really knew what they were doing.

It is up to you to figure what you want to do I suppose.

 

[Kaiser]

Coming back to the protein rest and how it lead to the discussion about deoctions. There are mash schedules that allow you to do decoctions w/o having a protein rest. The one option that I have in mind is this:

dough in at 63C (Maltose rest)
wait a desired amout of time
pull thick decoction
return decoction to hit 71C (Saccrification rest)
wait for negative starch test
pull think decoction
return decoction to hit 75C (mash-out)

The latter decoction can be substitured with a hot-water infusion.

This way you can do the decoctions for flavor and/or being able to step the mash and don't have to worry about the ill effects of a protein rest wit highly modified malts.

Kai

 

[DrewsBrews]

Excellent info, Kaiser. Thanks. I'll keep this thread saved for eventual use when I get around to decoction mashing.

 

[Dude]

I didn't see anyone really touch this issue but protein rests are (IMHO) pretty much a thing of the past. Today's modified malts (with the exception of wheat and a few others) do not require the rests that are outlined above.

I know I've read this in a number of places.. I just can't seem to cite any of them currently.

Did you read the whole thread? Seems we've been through that already....

 

[Mindflux]

Did you read the whole thread? Seems we've been through that already....

No, summarize. I don't feel like going through 3 pages of thread.

 

[Dude]

No, summarize. I don't feel like going through 3 pages of thread.

My feelings (and some others here too) are that step mashes aren't necessary but for a few styles.

I'll do a protein rest for a wheat but that is about it.

The rest of the thread is a good read though, lots of info.

 

[Brewpastor]

One of the problems with modified grains is that in some cases, for some beer styles, the malt is over modified. I would simply add Euro lagers to the brews I do protein rests with, but then again, I have taken Fix's advice and use a less modified Moravian malt. If you aren't using an less modified malt, screw the rest!

 

[Kaiser]

I have taken Fix's advice and use a less modified Moravian malt

What is the maltster for this Malt? Do you have analysis data?

I just want to compare.

Kai

 

[KopyKat]

When I was first getting into brewing - "No way am I going beyond extract brewing - too much trouble & expense"

When I went to partial mash - "No way am I going to go beyond this - just a little more time and I am able to make better beer - that's it though."

Now I have stepped up to all grain with infusion mashing. "Now this is really the limit. Not one step further up the ladder of complexity I will go." (now if you believe that, please PM me. I have something else I would like to sell):rockin:

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

What is the maltster for this Malt? Do you have analysis data?

Did BP ever get back on this? I'm curious.

Prowler, your nature sounds like mine!

 

[Brewpastor]

Did BP ever get back on this? I'm curious.

Prowler, your nature sounds like mine!

I'm looking, I'm looking...

Actually, I forgot to look when I was home, I'll try to remember tonight, so maybe the Cimay for lunch isn't such a great idea!

 

[Kaiser]

I have the analysis sheets for the Weyerman malts. There are in German though. Is anybody interested in the data here? I'd be willing to make an Excel sheet if I can actually place this somewhere on this server.

Kai

 

[Brewpastor]

I am always interested in data. That would be great.

By the way, I really appreciate the quality and thoughtfulness of your posts. Thank you.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

see[/B] if it really has a benefit. Personally, I believe the tried and true authors/books I've read that incur a step mash/decoction mash is for certain styles or for under-modified malts, which are also rare.

Without sounding obtuse, for most of us it is a waste of time IMHO. Especially for those of us without the ability to recirculate and direct heat.


:rockin:

I agree. I don't uderstand why people go through all that trouble-pull some mash out boil it, put it back, pull some more, boil again........too damn much work! It's nothing but a fancy step-mash anyway. If I find a recipe that calls for a decoction, (I see it in bock recipes all the time) I' ll just do a step or two and call it a victory.
No complaints yet. Cheers all!

 

[Kaiser]

I agree. I don't uderstand why people go through all that trouble-pull some mash out boil it, put it back, pull some more, boil again........too damn much work!

I don't know why others go through all the trouble to build a brew stand if using a table works just as well. . No offense though, I just wanted to mention that there are other ways, than the mash, of complicating things.
Kai

 

[Darth Konvel]

Great thread! We all brew for two reasons, to drink good beer, and have fun in the process. How far you take you mashing is one of those things that you can over think, but it's all for the fun of it anyways.

I agree with the general consensus that protein rests (et al) aren't something necessary for your typical brew. I only really see it coming into view down the road if I ever do a batch heavy in adjuncts.

Thanks for posting all the good info up though. Even if I never need to use any of it, I must satisfy my inner beer geek

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Did anybody else receive the latest issue of BYO? The 'Tips from the Pros' section is on step mashes (although there is significantly more information in this thread IMO).

There is also an article on Belgian Golden Ale which includes a mash schedule that starts at room temp and slowly increases in temperature (continuously) through hot water infusion and direct heat until mash out.

 

[Brewpastor]

I did not see it. Is that mag. worth getting in general?

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I did not see it. Is that mag. worth getting in general?

I like it a lot. It has good articles on brewing science, equipment fabrication, background on different styles of beer, and many recipes (including your dreaded 'c' word). I'm not sure how much it would appeal to a brewer more advanced than myself, but I always read it cover to cover and learn a lot.

At the same time, it's just one source and I don't necessarily agree with getting all of your information from one source...

 

[Brewpastor]

I am just always looking for stuff to read about beer, all levels, old and new. I just ordered Michael Lewis' (UCDavis) "Brewing" from Amazon. They had one hardback copy left and it was cheaper then the paperbacks! Go figure. I am licking my chops for that to arrive.

 

[Dude]

Did anybody else receive the latest issue of BYO? The 'Tips from the Pros' section is on step mashes (although there is significantly more information in this thread IMO).

There is also an article on Belgian Golden Ale which includes a mash schedule that starts at room temp and slowly increases in temperature (continuously) through hot water infusion and direct heat until mash out.

What month?

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

What month?

Beats me...April/May I guess? The one that arrived this week.

 

[Dude]

LOL...just got mine!!! May/June, BTW....

I'm gonna go relax on the recliner and take a look....

BYO in the mail is ALWAYS a good day!!!!

 

[Kaiser]

I have the analysis sheets for the Weyerman malts. There are in German though. Is anybody interested in the data here? I'd be willing to make an Excel sheet if I can actually place this somewhere on this server.

I exported the table I have in a PDF documeny into a picture. Here is the average analysis data for the 2005 harvest. Especially for the SNR, the range is rather broad. All the interesting parameters are marked with a yellow background:

The picture got scaled down. I'll fix this

Does anybody know how to preven the scaling-down of pictures when I upload them?

Kai