The actual difference between APA and IPA?

[dnr]

I'm no slouch on beer knowledge, but I am new to Homebrewing.
I get that usually a Pale Ale is going to be less bitter and lower ABV than an IPA.
So is that it? Because when I research the real difference, it's just BS conjecture.

I am currently fermenting a (dunno what to call it) beer.
5.5 gallons
6lb Pilsener LME
1.5lb sucrose
1.5oz Newport (10.9 AA) @60
0.5oz Newport @15
All my maths say I'll lend up with a 5.1% ABV and a 93 IBU.

Is this a really hoppy Pale Ale or a low ABV IPA? I wouldn't call it a session IPA with that amount of bitterness!

Lemme know what you think.
And I have a bunch of hops on their way. No more SMASH for daddy.

 

[user 263363]

This is argument could almost be to the level of porter vs stout. You have your commercial Pale Ales and IPAs that have a stark difference. Then you start getting in to Session IPAs and Hoppy Pale Ales and everything is out the window.

At 93 IBUs I would certainly call yours an IPA. Whether you want to tack on anything like Session or the like is totally on you. Style Guidelines are just that, and if you aren't entering a competition none of it really matters.

 

[grampamark]

Unless you’re entering a competition, the difference between an APA and an IPA is an “A” and an “I”.

Two West Coast beers which have been thought of for years as poster children for their respective styles are Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and Lagunitas IPA. SNPA is 5.6 ABV and 38 IBU. Lagunitas is 6.2 ABV and 51 IBU. Beersmith predicts that your recipe would finish at 5.8 ABV and 60 IBU. I’d call that an IPA; you can call it whatever you like.

 

[dmtaylor]

With only 2 oz hops in 5.5 gallons, you have neither a Pale Ale nor an IPA. These days, Pale Ale and IPA are usually more about hop flavor and aroma, not bitterness, at least for Americans but perhaps not the English. For American styles, you would have to use at least 4-5 oz late hop additions (flameout, whirlpool, dry hop) if not double or triple this amount to achieve IPA status. For the English style, a small addition of crystal malt might be in order to beef up the malt character.

You're correct though in that there's really no difference between the two terms anymore. There are tons of examples of bitter hoppy Pale Ales, and there are tens of thousands of examples of low bitterness IPAs. And then there's the mostly forgotten English IPA style, which is close to yours. The lines are completely blurred, for now. The acronym "IPA" doesn't even really mean much anymore, it is stolen and bastardized as a pure marketing term now, and applied to everything even close to resembling anything "hoppy". But by "hoppy" we always mean flavor and aroma, and NOT always bitterness (IBUs)... except maybe for the English.

With your recipe as-is, I would maybe call it an English IPA. That's as close as it gets. You can choose to change direction if you wish. I'm just letting you know where the recipe stands as-is without any changes.

 

[VikeMan]

Here's what the BJCP (2015) says about the difference between the two (in the APA guideline):

"Less bitterness in the balance and alcohol strength than an American IPA. More balanced and drinkable, and less intensely hop-focused and bitter than session-strength American IPAs (aka Session IPAs). "

 

[VikeMan]

All my maths say I'll lend up with a 5.1% ABV and a 93 IBU.

Tinseth formula says about 68 IBUs with that recipe. (And probably more like 66 IBUs, as the true utilization curve drops off about 65 or so.) How did you arrive at 93?

 

[mongoose33]

Big rant-style thing coming:


I get that competitions are about matching styles, if possible; otherwise, they'd be little more than "do you like this" evaluations.

I lost interest in a focus on matching styles as my goal as a home brewer when I saw inconsistency in results of such contests.

One local "beer guru" can't seemingly evaluate a beer without first knowing the "style" and comparing it to that. I've asked him a few times to give me feedback on a beer I brewed, and that feedback is all in relation to how close he thinks it came to the style. Never about whether it's good. He brews too, but I can't figure out if he's lost the desire to brew good-tasting beer, or just beer that can be shown to match a style. I stopped asking him because he uses a criterion for evaluation I think is largely irrelevant.

I realized that what mattered is how good the beer is, i.e., whether *I* like it or not. I generally can't tell you how many IBUs it has, and I don't care. What I care about is whether I like it or, if brewing something for others, whether they like it.

*********

And yeah, my beer is good. Good enough that friends want to pay me commercial prices for it. Good enough that a local bar owner wants to sell it. Good enough that those drinking it usually have another--which is my gold standard for assessing if a beer is good.

I have a buddy who's a super-taster and I use him to help me search for off-flavors, anything that's wrong in a beer. He gets beer and the only condition is he's brutally honest about it. And a few times, he has been.

Gave him a growler of my K-squared kolsch. HIs reaction? "Yum." His wife told him now she has a new favorite beer. I filled a few more mini-growlers for him yesterday because....well, in lockdown, I'm just not moving beer as much and I want it gone before it goes bad (brewed 2.5 months ago). He's dropped off some venison "beef" sticks for me and he'll undoubtedly get me some other stuff.

Is it really a Kolsch? A native-born German friend who knows Kolsches has had it, and thought it great, except it's not really a Kolsch, because it has too much flavor to be a Kolsch. It's Kolsch-y. It's made with Kolsch yeast, but would it win a competition where it has to match a style? Probably no. Too much flavor. But it wins the palate competition.

********

I just kegged a lager on Friday, 2 weeks after brewing. It's a kind of Mexican lager, crisp finish, pilsner sort of kind of thing. Damned if I know what style it matches. It has 6# Maris Otter, 4# 2-Row, couple pounds of Pils malt, a half pound of flaked corn, a pound of Munich. 2 ounces of Hallertau hops, first-wort hopped. WLP 940. I used LODO techniques so it has what I'd consider enhanced flavor.

All I know is my wife likes it, and requested I brew it. She likes the Kolsch. She likes this one better--it's her favorite.

But what style is it? I don't know. It's a sort of Mexican lager kind of more flavorful thingy that I step mashed up to 149 degrees because I wanted it to be a little crisper.

Would it win a competition? I don't know and I don't care. Super-palate guy likes it. My wife likes it. I like it. All I can tell you about IBUs is they're relatively low. But that beer is tasty, and knowing the IBUs won't change that at all.

********

To @dnr : I know that new brewers tend to focus on things like this because they're measurable and early on, hard to be completely objective about what you produce. But if I were you, I'd move away from being a slave to style, if you are at all, and focus on brewing beer you want to drink. If you can do that, the rest of this will take care of itself. And being able to label a beer as an IPA or an APA won't change how it tastes one iota.

My 2 cents, YMMV, void in states where it's void, and likely known to the state of California as an opinion not approved by their government.

 

[Pappers_]

With only 2 oz hops in 5.5 gallons, you have neither a Pale Ale nor an IPA. These days, Pale Ale and IPA are usually more about hop flavor and aroma, not bitterness, at least for Americans but perhaps not the English.

I get your overall point, and agree with it, but this is too absolute, at least as I'm reading it. Using the BJCP style guidelines, an American IPA better be bracingly bitter and the hop flavor can be medium intensity. A New England IPA, not so much - reduced bitterness (and a different kind of bitterness at that), and ramped up hop flavor and aroma.

 

[Jag75]

Heres an interesting article

https://toastmag.co.nz/beer/ipa-vs-apa-down-letter

 

[Immocles]

@dnr Lemme know what you think of the Newport hops. I had debated buying some myself, but had to put any and all brew orders on hold for now.

As for the definition opinion, I'd call it a APA (or just pale ale, if it were going on my fridge board). IPA definitions have gotten so loose that quite a few folks might expect something wildly different (whirlpools, steeps, dry hops).

 

[dnr]

@dmtaylor I don't like the direction of all this late and dry hopping. I know a lot of beers do it, but I really am over the whole haze movement, and have been for a while now. As a New Englander, it's become ubiquitous and a bit stagnant.

Also, I have an order of hops coming today. So I will be adding more hops in the future, but no juice bombs most likely.

 

[dnr]

Tinseth formula says about 68 IBUs with that recipe. (And probably more like 66 IBUs, as the true utilization curve drops off about 65 or so.) How did you arrive at 93?

Yeah. That makes sense actually.
I originally got those amounts from Brewer's Friend IBU calculator.

Last night I grabbed one of those recipe apps, entered everything in and it gave me is predictions. It seemed accurate about everything else.

 

[dnr]

@mongoose33
I can completely get on board with the sentiment.
I am a fan of Brülosophy and just listened to their show exactly this idea.

I also listen to 4Brewers and The Beerists, and both have mentioned once you take away a style or play with the expectation of style, flavor means very little other than what that person thinks.
Honestly, I have seen the ride in juicy IPAs over the last few years and the bottles go down. I now look for Pale Ales when I want a bitter fix, and I was curious. I have said that a Pale Ale today would have done well in an IPA competition 5 years ago.
But like I mentioned, I am making a recipe with my app (for the first time) and it asked for a style, so I figured I would ask.

I appreciate the words and plan on learning rules to break them and share around them.
I love the tradition in beer, but I also love the idea of hacking the system and making a 7 day lager...

Cheers!

 

[dnr]

@dnr Lemme know what you think of the Newport hops. I had debated buying some myself, but had to put any and all brew orders on hold for now.

As for the definition opinion, I'd call it a APA (or just pale ale, if it were going on my fridge board). IPA definitions have gotten so loose that quite a few folks might expect something wildly different (whirlpools, steeps, dry hops).

I'm currently out of work myself (bartender at a craft beer bar) and on a budget. Brewed a 7 year old kit my wife got me and immediately started changing the kit recipe. Got a badly oxidized wheat LME to taste like "Crème Brew-lée".
But I'm all in and have been deal hunting. I found 8oz Newport bags on Northern Brewer for $1.98. so I immediately ordered 6 bags and 12 lbs Pilsener LME. It's in primary right now. First night of crazy bubbling, it smelled great.
The hops smell like sweet, fresh cut hay, grassy, earthy and a little pine maybe.
I plan on adding Earl Grey tea and lemon zest to the second half on my 5.5 gallons once I've reached and bottled the first half.

I'll update on my monstrosity.

 

[Joshua Hughes]

I’m new and in the same boat about styles. Stuff is so varied I was getting confused trying to build recipes. I’m just worrying now if I like the taste and go from there

 

[ncbrewer]

Style guidelines are great for communicating roughly what to expect from a beer. Just don't be too rigid about it.

 

[Dgallo]

Big rant-style thing coming:


I get that competitions are about matching styles, if possible; otherwise, they'd be little more than "do you like this" evaluations.

I lost interest in a focus on matching styles as my goal as a home brewer when I saw inconsistency in results of such contests.

One local "beer guru" can't seemingly evaluate a beer without first knowing the "style" and comparing it to that. I've asked him a few times to give me feedback on a beer I brewed, and that feedback is all in relation to how close he thinks it came to the style. Never about whether it's good. He brews too, but I can't figure out if he's lost the desire to brew good-tasting beer, or just beer that can be shown to match a style. I stopped asking him because he uses a criterion for evaluation I think is largely irrelevant.

I realized that what mattered is how good the beer is, whether *I* like it or not. I generally can't tell you how many IBUs it has, and I don't care. What I care about is whether I like it or, if brewing something for others, whether they like it.

*********

And yeah, my beer is good. Good enough that friends want to pay me commercial prices for it. Good enough that a local bar owner wants to sell it. Good enough that those drinking it usually have another--which is my gold standard for assessing if a beer is good.

I have a buddy who's a super-taster and I use him to help me search for off-flavors, anything that's wrong in a beer. He gets beer and the only condition is he's brutally honest about it. And a few times, he has been.

Gave him a growler of my K-squared kolsch. HIs reaction? "Yum." His wife told him now she has a new favorite beer. I filled a few more mini-growlers for him yesterday because....well, in lockdown, I'm just not moving beer as much and I want it gone before it goes bad (brewed 2.5 months ago). He's dropped off some venison "beef" sticks for me and he'll undoubtedly get me some other stuff.

Is it really a Kolsch? A native-born German friend who knows Kolsches has had it, and thought it great, except it's not really a Kolsch, because it has too much flavor to be a Kolsch. It's Kolsch-y. It's made with Kolsch yeast, but would it win a competition where it has to match a style? Probably no. Too much flavor. But it wins the palate competition.

********

I just kegged a lager on Friday, 2 weeks after brewing. It's a kind of Mexican lager, crisp finish, pilsner sort of kind of thing. Damned if I know what style it matches. It has 6# Maris Otter, 4# 2-Row, couple pounds of Pils malt, a half pound of flaked corn, a pound of Munich. 2 ounces of Hallertau hops, first-wort hopped. WLP 940. I used LODO techniques so it has what I'd consider enhanced flavor.

All I know is my wife likes it, and requested I brew it. She likes the Kolsch. She likes this one better--it's her favorite.

But what style is it? I don't know. It's a sort of Mexican lager kind of more flavorful thingy that I step mashed up to 149 degrees because I wanted it to be a little crisper.

Would it win a competition? I don't know and I don't care. Super-palate guy likes it. My wife likes it. I like it. All I can tell you about IBUs is they're relatively low. But that beer is tasty, and knowing the IBUs won't change that at all.

********

To @dnr : I know that new brewers tend to focus on things like this because they're measurable and early on, hard to be completely objective about what you produce. But if I were you, I'd move away from being a slave to style, if you are at all, and focus on brewing beer you want to drink. If you can do that, the rest of this will take care of itself. And being able to label a beer as an IPA or an APA won't change how it tastes one iota.

My 2 cents, YMMV, void in states where it's void, and likely known to the state of California as an opinion not approved by their government.

Lol I appreciate the warning about the rant coming so obviously I read the whole thing

 

[Dgallo]

I’m new and in the same boat about styles. Stuff is so varied I was getting confused trying to build recipes. I’m just worrying now if I like the taste and go from there

Unless you want to metal in competition. I have my competition beers that are great and to style but then I have my beers that just taste great like a sour hoppy ale with lactose, vanilla, raspberry, orange zest, and with a huge dryhop of mosaic and citra. This beer will never metal but it’s probably top 3 beers I have.

As long as it’s good, brew it

 

[mongoose33]

@mongoose33
I can completely get on board with the sentiment.
I am a fan of Brülosophy and just listened to their show exactly this idea.
View attachment 677845
I also listen to 4Brewers and The Beerists, and both have mentioned once you take away a style or play with the expectation of style, flavor means very little other than what that person thinks.
Honestly, I have seen the ride in juicy IPAs over the last few years and the bottles go down. I now look for Pale Ales when I want a bitter fix, and I was curious. I have said that a Pale Ale today would have done well in an IPA competition 5 years ago.
But like I mentioned, I am making a recipe with my app (for the first time) and it asked for a style, so I figured I would ask.

I appreciate the words and plan on learning rules to break them and share around them.
I love the tradition in beer, but I also love the idea of hacking the system and making a 7 day lager...

Cheers!

IMO, the--THE--number one reason to do all this is enjoy it, and have fun. Please yourself first. If you're not having fun doing this, you're doing it wrong.

Same goes with recipes--please yourself, not the style or the recipe.

It's been about 4 1/2 years since I started brewing beer. It's been about 44 1/2 years since i started drinking beer. Probably more an expert on the latter than the former, but I've come a long way in that 4 1/2 years, and I still remember what it was like to be a newbie to brewing.

What I discovered along the way--and this is me, YMMV--was that once I got past the "hit the numbers" stage of my brewing learning curve, I started thinking about how the beer tasted. "Hmmm....I wish it had a little more of this." Or "I wish it had a little less of that."

My recipes--and I have them--moved in the direction of what I wanted to drink. I've got all the books on recipes and such--seems like no brewing book can be published without them. But i haven't consulted a book recipe for...a year and a half, I'd bet. I'm just making stuff up as I go.

I will credit Brulosophy for some of my willingness to experiment. IMO, Brulosophy's value is in providing new ideas one might try. The tasting system they use is suspect, but there are a lot of interesting ideas. My first Brulosophy "experiment" was to simply throw all the trub in the fermenter instead of trying to strain it. I couldn't detect any change, so worrying about trub dropped off my radar.

I also use a variant of the fast-lager fermentation schedule I first read about on Brulosophy. It's modified for how I do starters, which is unusual (only a few of us here do it), but it came from Brulosophy. The lager I described above was done using it, and 2 weeks and 3 days after brewing, we are drinking it. I think it has another week of conditioning to go, but my wife and super-taster buddy think it's good now. (BTW, a lager-thing in 17 days? Pretty weird, eh?).

So, my advice to you--and remember that free advice is sometimes worth what you paid for it--is to brew that recipe you noted above, and see what you get. Then.....adjust. If you want some ideas on what to do, we certainly can offer up opinions, some informed, some crazy. But you're enough of a beer connoisseur that you should have a good idea where you want it go, if indeed you want to do that.

And screw the IBUs. If it's not bitter enough, add more hops. If too bitter, take some out.

 

[davidabcd]

Fun thread. It accents the basic mystery of beer and what lies behind the curtain.

 

[dnr]

@mongoose33
I am on board with everything you said... Except this "too bitter" thing you mentioned.
I can't wait to experiment. Mostly playing with hops. I have more Pilsener LME so I can test that end with all my new hop varieties. Like using monitoring headphone when listening to music. Flat response.

Then I plan on moving on to mixed grain soon. I'm gonna have fun, trust me. And I'm a curious bugger, so I'll be asking a lot. You seem like you know what's good, so I may be @-ing you in the future.

Thanks again.

 

[dnr]

@davidabcd
Let's pull back that curtain!
And is that bike in your profile pic on Woodward?
If you're in Detroit, make sure you grab some Short's Brewing.

 

[BruceH]

The difference? More hops and alcohol to the British soldiers serving in India where high heat would skunk a beer.

I'll take some heat for this but I'll say it anyway. Some of the commercial IPA's I've had have a whole lot of hops to cover up for a poorly made product. No mystery, just add hops until bad flavors aren't detectable anymore. Make it 9% and all the better.

 

[VikeMan]

More hops and alcohol to the British soldiers serving in India where high heat would skunk a beer.

FWIW, heat doesn't skunk beer. But light does.

 

[dnr]

Plus, I thought that whole tale was heavily hopping the beer better preserved the beer for the trip to India, around Africa.
That's the most popular reason I've heard about "India Pale Ales".

 

[dmtaylor]

Plus, I thought that whole tale was heavily hopping the beer better preserved the beer for the trip to India, around Africa.
That's the most popular reason I've heard about "India Pale Ales".

It's a nice tale. Most likely false but a nice story and so I suppose it is a legend that shall never die.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

@dnr Lemme know what you think of the Newport hops. I had debated buying some myself, but had to put any and all brew orders on hold for now.

As for the definition opinion, I'd call it a APA (or just pale ale, if it were going on my fridge board). IPA definitions have gotten so loose that quite a few folks might expect something wildly different (whirlpools, steeps, dry hops).

Newport is noted to give clean bittering, I grow them and would agree. They have a nice aroma, but don‘t seem to contribute much beyond bittering.

 

[Wayne1]

Four IPA myths that need to be stamped out!

 

[dnr]

Four IPA myths that need to be stamped out!

So, why is it an India Pale Ale? I am sure there is some conjecture at work here, but the myth persists.

English
American
West Coast
East Coast
New England/North Eastern
Brut
Milkshake
Sour
Imperial/Double
Triple
Rye
White
Red
Black
Session
Low-Cal (no to be confused with SoCal)
Belgian
And I'm sure I've missed some.

I've heard the story of how most all beer stiles have been created and whether or not they're true, we can tell out children's children the fairy tales of British colonialism in India, servants without enough money to buy stronger ales, and how much American brewmasters hate juice bombs but they're the only beers that sell because...White Claw!

 

[Immocles]

Newport is noted to give clean bittering, I grow them and would agree. They have a nice aroma, but don‘t seem to contribute much beyond bittering.

Good to know. I'm looking for a versatile/clean bittering hop. I've had a bit of a struggle with a good clean bitter lately since I have my last bit of warrior earmarked for a coming brew. Been an experimentation period that isn't gone over super well. If its still dirt cheap the next time I place an order, I may have to give it a shot.