Testing long primary

[ChshreCat]

I really don't want this thread to become one of those arguments. As I said... We're never going to convince people that a long primary is a good thing to do. All I'm doing here is a little experiment to try to quell fears that it's a BAD thing to do.

 

[BreckBastion]

I think it is pretty funny how people get all worked up. If you don't like what's on TV...CHANGE the channel.
I'm interested if you find anything Chshre so I'll stay tuned in.

 

[EricT]

How about if you dry hop but then your primary goes longer then you plan? Woo hoo 400th post!

 

[Jota21]

subscribed!

 

[BreckBastion]

I would say that if you dry hopped, then hopefully we're not talking weeks. Do you have a situation like that? How long on the hops? Does it taste like fescue?

 

[EricT]

I would say that if you dry hopped, then hopefully we're not talking weeks. Do you have a situation like that? How long on the hops? Does it taste like fescue?

Its been dry hoped about 2 weeks now. Gonna keg it today or tomorrow. Just curious what happens if youre dry hop goes long, not trying to hijack the thread but thought it pertains.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I really don't want this thread to become one of those arguments. As I said... We're never going to convince people that a long primary is a good thing to do. All I'm doing here is a little experiment to try to quell fears that it's a BAD thing to do.

I agree with you and your approach. I just had to respond to some misleading information contained here

I've said it over and over, I've been getting honorable mentions and even medals for my beers since the very first batch I did a long primary for several years, that's EXACTLY why I keep doing it. First contest I entered the long primary beer did waaaay better than the one I secondaried, and the comments were, "crystal clear" "Crisp tasting" and the one that nailed it for me, "Jewell Like Appearance."

That was WHY I became an advocate to begin with.

Leaving a beer in the fermenter for 4 weeks that did not have award winning flavor at 2 weeks is not going to make it now award winning. Yes, there is something to be said about a "conditioning" phase, but usually that is done cold and having a big pile of yeast underneath is not the reason that the flavor has now come together. Just because those beers won awards and were very good beers does not mean that it was the long time sitting on the yeast that made them that way. Also, I have no idea how "crisp tasting" has anything to do with leaving the beer sitting on the yeast? I would like someone to try to quantify that for me. That seems like it would have more to do with a good recipe, good process, healthy fermentation, and especially the proper pH. I just see Revvy all over this forum speaking to the greatness of long times spent in the fermenter and I don't believe that it is as important as he says it is.

After all, Jamil the yeast whisperer himself usually only holds his beer in the fermenter for 8-14 days for ales according to most of his podcasts and it is hard to argue with his success.

 

[ChshreCat]

Its been dry hoped about 2 weeks now. Gonna keg it today or tomorrow. Just curious what happens if youre dry hop goes long, not trying to hijack the thread but thought it pertains.

If you dry hop too long you can develop some odd vegetal flavors to your beer. I've also found that there's kind of a curve involved in the aroma. As you dry hop longer it imparts more aroma to the beer, but eventually you peak and it starts dropping off again as the volatiles start evaporating from the beer faster than they're being extracted from the hops.

 

[Haputanlas]

If you dry hop too long you can develop some odd vegetal flavors to your beer. I've also found that there's kind of a curve involved in the aroma. As you dry hop longer it imparts more aroma to the beer, but eventually you peak and it starts dropping off again as the volatiles start evaporating from the beer faster than they're being extracted from the hops.

What is your experience of being too long? And at what volumes of hops are we speaking of?

 

[ChshreCat]

I inadvertantly dryhopped an APA for 18 days with 1.5 ounces of hops (1 oz amarillo and .5 cascade), then moved it to a tertiary fermenter for a week to try to settle out some of the hop particles (I dry hopped with pellets that time) before bottling. I submitted it to the HBT BJCP competition last year and it won the American ales category so it couldn't have been too bad of a thing. Although, the one criticism the judges had was that it could've used a little more hop aroma.

 

[jfowler1]

I think this is the most unclear, unspecific debate I see on HBT, so I would hope a few people from the 4-week-primary crowd will specify a few steps in their process. I'm not calling anyone out, so anyone is free to answer.

Above, somone noted that Jamil leaves his beer on the yeast (I think this is easier than calling it a "primary") for no more than about two weeks. I believe that is correct. I've listened to many hours of Jamil's radio shows, and he has said mutiple times, the most important upgrade a brewer can make is going to a full wort boil. The second upgrade should be fermentation control. Not all-grain, not a conical fermenter, not even a wort chiller; fermentation control. The number of days in a primary (be it 10 or 28) barely scratches the surface of a perfect, controlled fermentation.

So:

1.) How do you control fermentation temperature? In other words, do you sit a bucket in a "stable" closet for 4 weeks? Do you drape a wet towel over a carboy? If you can not heat up the carboy/bucket as fermentation slows (I am talking fermentation here, not conditioning), how do you perform a Diacetyl rest? Maybe you ferment in a dedicated fridge. Are you monitoring the air temperature of the fridge, or the temperature of the liquid as fermentation is happening?

2.) How appropriate is your yeast pitch? Is the yeast fresh? Have you followed a yeast pitch calculator? Do you make a starter? If so, is it on a stir plate? Do you use dry yeast? If so, do you rehydrate or just sprinkle on top. Finally, what strain of yeast do you typically use? Does it take 4 weeks to fall out of solution (like US-05), or does it drop like a rock (like WLP007)?

3.) How do you sanitize your equipment? Are you using a bleach and rinse? One-step? PBW for cleaning and Star-san for sanitizing?

It should be obvious that I am trying to conclude that people who advocate the 4+ week primary are following an OUTSTANDING fermentation procedure, creating the best possible scenario to produce award winning beer, and have found that 4 weeks of precisely controlled fermentation/conditioning has yielded better results than a more "commercial style" 7-10 days of precisely controlled fermentaion/conditioning.

.....otherwise, those who question the merits of an extended primary will continue to argue that it is simply a solution to a problem; a problem that could have be avoided had a superior procedure been in place.

For the record, over the past 2 years, I have sat on both sides of the fence - 2 weeks/ 4 weeks, secondary/ no secondary, heat-controlled fermentation/basement floor, and my process is still evolving. The little upgrades and tweaks are the best part of this hobby.

I look forward to your replies, and continuing the conversation.


Joe

 

[Jcoz]

I think this is the most unclear, unspecific debate I see on HBT, so I would hope a few people from the 4-week-primary crowd will specify a few steps in their process. I'm not calling anyone out, so anyone is free to answer.

Above, somone noted that Jamil leaves his beer on the yeast (I think this is easier than calling it a "primary") for no more than about two weeks. I believe that is correct. I've listened to many hours of Jamil's radio shows, and he has said mutiple times, the most important upgrade a brewer can make is going to a full wort boil. The second upgrade should be fermentation control. Not all-grain, not a conical fermenter, not even a wort chiller; fermentation control. The number of days in a primary (be it 10 or 28) barely scratches the surface of a perfect, controlled fermentation.

So:

1.) How do you control fermentation temperature? In other words, do you sit a bucket in a "stable" closet for 4 weeks? Do you drape a wet towel over a carboy? If you can not heat up the carboy/bucket as fermentation slows (I am talking fermentation here, not conditioning), how do you perform a Diacetyl rest? Maybe you ferment in a dedicated fridge. Are you monitoring the air temperature of the fridge, or the temperature of the liquid as fermentation is happening?

2.) How appropriate is your yeast pitch? Is the yeast fresh? Have you followed a yeast pitch calculator? Do you make a starter? If so, is it on a stir plate? Do you use dry yeast? If so, do you rehydrate or just sprinkle on top. Finally, what strain of yeast do you typically use? Does it take 4 weeks to fall out of solution (like US-05), or does it drop like a rock (like WLP007)?

3.) How do you sanitize your equipment? Are you using a bleach and rinse? One-step? PBW for cleaning and Star-san for sanitizing?

It should be obvious that I am trying to conclude that people who advocate the 4+ week primary are following an OUTSTANDING fermentation procedure, creating the best possible scenario to produce award winning beer, and have found that 4 weeks of precisely controlled fermentation/conditioning has yielded better results than a more "commercial style" 7-10 days of precisely controlled fermentaion/conditioning.

.....otherwise, those who question the merits of an extended primary will continue to argue that it is simply a solution to a problem; a problem that could have be avoided had a superior procedure been in place.

For the record, over the past 2 years, I have sat on both sides of the fence - 2 weeks/ 4 weeks, secondary/ no secondary, heat-controlled fermentation/basement floor, and my process is still evolving. The little upgrades and tweaks are the best part of this hobby.

I look forward to your replies, and continuing the conversation.


Joe

Just a quick note, I have been listening to brew strong every day on my commute the last couple weeks and I disagree that JZ said he only ferments on the yeast for 2 weeks, pretty sure both he and Palmer stated within the last couple shows I listened to that they are both closer to a month, more out of laziness than anything else though, IIRC.

If needed I can probably figure out which shows those were, but both were yeast related titles I believe.

 

[jfowler1]

I think my point was missed.

For the record, turn to pages 66-69 of JZ's yeast book. Let me know which phase of fermentation day 28 falls under.

I am sure that JZ and Palmer have let a primary go for more than 10 days. In fact, I just listened to Palmer on Brewstrong talk about his freezer breaking, and how he was still unable to pitch over a week later. Because he did it, does not mean it is what he suggests doing.

If you have really listened carefully to the BN, tell me how many times Tasty McDole uses the phrase "of coarse our clone is fresher, it was under fire 9 days ago" (or something along those lines...but I am almost sure he always says "under fire _ days ago", and the number is never over 10).

I am quickly losing my point - I would still like to hear the details in a brewer's fermentation process who preaches the necessity of a four week fermentation. Specifically, fermentation temperature control, yeast health and handling, and sanitization.

Joe

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

i think my point was missed.

For the record, turn to pages 66-69 of jz's yeast book. Let me know which phase of fermentation day 28 falls under.

I am sure that jz and palmer have let a primary go for more than 10 days. In fact, i just listened to palmer on brewstrong talk about his freezer breaking, and how he was still unable to pitch over a week later. Because he did it, does not mean it is what he suggests doing.

If you have really listened carefully to the bn, tell me how many times tasty mcdole uses the phrase "of coarse our clone is fresher, it was under fire 9 days ago" (or something along those lines...but i am almost sure he always says "under fire _ days ago", and the number is never over 10).

I am quickly losing my point - i would still like to hear the details in a brewer's fermentation process who preaches the necessity of a four week fermentation. Specifically, fermentation temperature control, yeast health and handling, and sanitization.

Joe

amen brotha!!!

 

[ChshreCat]

If you have really listened carefully to the BN, tell me how many times Tasty McDole uses the phrase "of coarse our clone is fresher, it was under fire 9 days ago" (or something along those lines...but I am almost sure he always says "under fire _ days ago", and the number is never over 10).

And when he says that, how many times does he say "Man, I wish we could have let it go longer... and we will next time we brew it... but we had to make the deadline for the show" and comment on how it would be better otherwise.

 

[jfowler1]

Once.

IIRC, it was the Black Butte Porter Clone, and they were drinking it roughly 7 days after brew day, and it was fermented with a huge scoop (plus extra vials) of top cropped WLP002 from the Magic Hat #9 he was also fermenting. Add in the time it took to force carb and get to the show, you are talking about racking in 5 days. I agree, 5 days is probably not enough time to allow the yeast to complete a conditioning phase.

Regardless, this is still getting away from the point of my question. Would somebody please give me some more details about their fermentation procedure?

 

[ChshreCat]

If we can, can we just get away from the whole debate all together? I'm just wanting to send this in and post my score sheets and not get into all the chest puffing and bumping. It's been beat to death as Revvy says.

 

[bob1852]

I left a brown ale in the primary for 2 months. It scored a 45/50 at a BJCP statewide competition.

/debate

 

[bob1852]

Would somebody please give me some more details about their fermentation procedure?

Same as any beer I do...

Chill through the CFC, aerate by pouring between two buckets, pitching liquid yeast that's been on a starter for ~24hrs, maintaining ambient temp ~60*F, wait two months, bottle, and collect gold medals.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

maintaining ambient temp ~60*F, wait two months, bottle, and collect gold medals.

What yeast strain is that? 60*F is a little cold to ferment an ale isn't it?

 

[Jcoz]

Same as any beer I do...

Chill through the CFC, aerate by pouring between two buckets, pitching liquid yeast that's been on a starter for ~24hrs, maintaining ambient temp ~60*F, wait two months, bottle, and collect gold medals.

Ambient temp?

 

[Homercidal]

What yeast strain is that? 60*F is a little cold to ferment an ale isn't it?

For ambient air tempt it's about right for me. I try to hit 62-65 wort temp and 60 is pretty close to that after the fermentation heats it up a bit. My temp control is trying to keep ambient air at about 60-62 for the first week or so. Once the SG is down I let it rise. More due to convenience than anything. It's not always comfortable to have the room AC that low...

Now that I have a temp controller and insulated chamber I'll probably try to measure the wort temp instead of air temp and hit the numbers more precisely, with a slow rise over several days.

Even without a temp controller, my beer has DEFINITELY been better since keeping it low as well as I can. It's not always easy to keep it within a 5 degree window with a swamp cooler or AC.

 

[kopher]

Just another anecdote, but when I brought one of my beers that had sat in the primary for 5-6 weeks to a homebrew club meeting at least 2 people immediately guessed after tasting it that it had sat in the primary too long. Slightly high fermentation temps may have added to this, but it was true, the beer had a light soy sauce finish.

 

[ChshreCat]

Threw one in after just a week to monitor progress and cracked it open just now. It's a bigger ABV beer so I knew it would need more time to carbonate, but it's getting some nice fizz to it already. So, there's a strike against the "My beers been in primary for 2 months so I'll have to add yeast to make it carb" worry some folks seem to have.

And it tastes wonderful.

I have to say that the one BIG plus about a long primary is right there. Sure, you can ferment and bottle quick, but most beers need some conditioning time before they taste right. If you do a long enough primary, they're perfect as soon as they carb up.

 

[Revvy]

Threw one in after just a week to monitor progress and cracked it open just now. It's a bigger ABV beer so I knew it would need more time to carbonate, but it's getting some nice fizz to it already. So, there's a strike against the "My beers been in primary for 2 months so I'll have to add yeast to make it carb" worry some folks seem to have.

And it tastes wonderful.

I have to say that the one BIG plus about a long primary is right there. Sure, you can ferment and bottle quick, but most beers need some conditioning time before they taste right. If you do a long enough primary, they're perfect as soon as they carb up.

My 5.5 month porter didn't need extra yeast either. It carbed up beautifully. I just did like I did for all my long primaries and rubbed the bottom of my autosiphon along the bottom.

 

[pkeeler]

While I appreciate people trying things and posting them, I don't know what has been learned here. Yes, it seems this beer came out fine, but we knew it probably would. Unless you split the batch, bottled one at 4 weeks and one at 8 weeks for instance, then maybe we could learn something (even then it would be hard to absolutely duplicate everything). But otherwise, there are too many variables. If the point of all this talk on HBF is that your yeast won't die at 3 weeks automatically, then ok. But you can't simply brew a batch, and say that came out great, so it was because of any one variable.

Yes, bulk ageing is important and a month is probably a minimum for all but the smallest beers. But, there are several ways to do it. Many people come on here and say they just primary. But then they are kegging, and the beer is sitting in the keg for weeks. That is simply duplicating what moving to a secondary does. So, I don't know why they are telling newbies that secondaries do nothing (whether they do or not, they are doing them, just not in a glass carboy).

I'll now get off my soapbox and say, "Happy New Year"

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Many people come on here and say they just primary. But then they are kegging, and the beer is sitting in the keg for weeks. That is simply duplicating what moving to a secondary does. So, I don't know why they are telling newbies that secondaries do nothing (whether they do or not, they are doing them, just not in a glass carboy).

The one big difference that you left out of this is that we who keg are drinking this beer while it is sitting there in the keg. Those sitting in carboys are not drinking it. Also, cold conditioning is completely different than leaving a beer sitting in a carboy at room temp. You are not coagulating tannin/polyphenols or proteins and helping them drop to the bottom at room temp like you are at cold temps. There is something to be said about having a good week cold conditioning after fermentation. Usually I am doing this conditioning while the beer is carbing up with the gas hooked to it and when it is ready to drink the cold conditioning has done its work.

 

[ChshreCat]

My 5.5 month porter didn't need extra yeast either. It carbed up beautifully. I just did like I did for all my long primaries and rubbed the bottom of my autosiphon along the bottom.

I didn't even do that! I transferred very carefully and made sure not to disturb the yeast cake and it's carbing up just fine. In fact, the yeast cake was so compact that I found it difficult to disturb!

While I appreciate people trying things and posting them, I don't know what has been learned here.

Many folks have a belief that if you leave your beer more than a week or two on the yeast cake will cause you to have issues caused by autolysis that lead to horrible flavors and smells among other issues. I plan on posting results from bjcp judges on a beer that has spent months in primary, to try to quell some worries.

 

[SwampassJ]

Anyone ever notice the people who are anti long primary want others to do the split batch to test it but will then denounce it as crap?

 

[pkeeler]

Many folks have a belief that if you leave your beer more than a week or two on the yeast cake will cause you to have issues caused by autolysis that lead to horrible flavors and smells among other issues. I plan on posting results from bjcp judges on a beer that has spent months in primary, to try to quell some worries.

Really? I've read thousands of posts here and have never read one that said beer will autolyze in a few weeks. However, when people do ask legitimate secondary container questions (such as for harvesting yeast, adding fruit, dry hopping, et al), I do see many people ignore the question and proselytize about not needing secondary fermenters.