Tell me about your fly sparge

[Mad Mann]

What do you mean by continuous sparge?

Brew on

Sorry, should have been more specific Continuous recirculation with full volume of water and no spare.

 

[day_trippr]

^ie: "full volume mash"^, just recirculated...

Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

Sorry, should have been more specific Continuous recirculation with full volume of water and no spare.

Recirc might improve your conversion efficiency a bit, if you don't have almost 100% conversion efficiency already. The mechanism is increasing the rate of conversion slightly, which can give more total conversion, if the mash time is not sufficient for complete conversion without recirc. You should be able to obtain the same conversion efficiency with a longer mash, if recirc is increasing your conversion efficiency.

Recirc during the mash will not improve your lauter efficiency. Since mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, improving either conversion efficiency, and/or lauter efficiency, will increase your mash efficiency. Sparging increases your lauter efficiency, but has no effect on conversion efficiency.

The data from @micraftbeer in the post above is consistent with what I have written above. If you do a tolerance analysis on efficiency calculations, you will find that any single measurement has a probable error of about +/- 3 - 4%. Thus the measurements of 72% for no recirc and 74% for recirc are not significantly different.

Brew on

 

[Golddiggie]

Now this has me thinking about changing from my Monster Mill two roller (2" diameter, hardened steel) crusher to one of the three roller versions. I was looking at them earlier and the one I'm more likely to get is showing as shipping within 45 days. I already have their motor on my MM2 (I made a riser for it so that the shaft of the motor properly aligns) so I would just need the mill set up to work with that. I just need to decide if the geared version is worth the extra $130 sticker price.

 

[Jaybird]

I like to keep if fairly simple but accurate:

About 20 min before Mash Out I crank up the HLT to 190*F
5 min before Mash Out I start the recirculation (this process I do as absolutely fast as my pump will run full open to set my grain bed)
While this is going on I calculate my needed sparge water and sparge speed.
CALCULATING sparge speed I TARGET 45 MIN
(Qts needed for pre boil divided by time)
Normal 12 gallon batch is 14 gallons pre boil or 56 qts so about 1.25 QTS per min.
While recirculation is setting grain bed I drop about a gallon of liquor into the MLT to raise temp and to raise volume to about 1" above mash. Set my HLT to proper volume and sparge temp. (I have landed on 175*F but that for another discussion)
Set the incoming float switch and outgoing speed, fire up a cigar and let the system work.

Cheers
Jay

 

[TheMadKing]

Sorry, should have been more specific Continuous recirculation with full volume of water and no spare.

The purpose of recirculating is to maintain or change your mash temp and is not intended to have an effect on efficiency.

In fact recirculating tends to drop people's efficiency because it is very easy to cause channeling which reduces both conversion and lauter efficiency unless the brewer re-stirs the grain bed periodically. So unless the brewer let's the grain bed set, and then recirculates at a slow enough speed not to cause channeling, it does more harm than good

 

[shelly_belly]

Watching a Phil's sparge arm turn is as much fun as sniffing an airlock!

 

[TheMadKing]

Now this has me thinking about changing from my Monster Mill two roller (2" diameter, hardened steel) crusher to one of the three roller versions. I was looking at them earlier and the one I'm more likely to get is showing as shipping within 45 days. I already have their motor on my MM2 (I made a riser for it so that the shaft of the motor properly aligns) so I would just need the mill set up to work with that. I just need to decide if the geared version is worth the extra $130 sticker price.

Wait, which discussion made you want a new mill?

I honestly don't understand the purpose of expensive 3 roller grain mills unless you are processing 20+ lb of grain regularly. The crush itself is still just a crush, it will just do it faster

 

[TheMadKing]

I like to keep if fairly simple but accurate:

About 20 min before Mash Out I crank up the HLT to 190*F
5 min before Mash Out I start the recirculation (this process I do as absolutely fast as my pump will run full open to set my grain bed)
While this is going on I calculate my needed sparge water and sparge speed.
CALCULATING sparge speed I TARGET 45 MIN
(Qts needed for pre boil divided by time)
Normal 12 gallon batch is 14 gallons pre boil or 56 qts so about 1.25 QTS per min.
While recirculation is setting grain bed I drop about a gallon of liquor into the MLT to raise temp and to raise volume to about 1" above mash. Set my HLT to proper volume and sparge temp. (I have landed on 175*F but that for another discussion)
Set the incoming float switch and outgoing speed, fire up a cigar and let the system work.

Cheers
Jay

That's a thing of beauty!

Except I think you're probably creating channels in your grain bed by recirculating that fast, rather than setting it with uniform porosity

Glad to see you chatting again Jay!

 

[micraftbeer]

Wait, which discussion made you want a new mill?

I honestly don't understand the purpose of expensive 3 roller grain mills unless you are processing 20+ lb of grain regularly. The crush itself is still just a crush, it will just do it faster

He may have been referring to my discussion above about mill gap settings and mash efficiency. If you want more detail about the 3-roller mill, in my review link below I have pictures of the different grain crush between 2-roller and 3-roller set at different gaps. As I noted in that review, I could visibly see better crush with the 3-roller mill (all grains at least cracked), and have avoided the stuck recirc I would occasionally get from crushing finer on my 2-roller.

https://www.homebrewfinds.com/2020/04/hands-on-review-monster-mill-mm-3-grain-mill.html

 

[TheMadKing]

He may have been referring to my discussion above about mill gap settings and mash efficiency. If you want more detail about the 3-roller mill, in my review link below I have pictures of the different grain crush between 2-roller and 3-roller set at different gaps. As I noted in that review, I could visibly see better crush with the 3-roller mill (all grains at least cracked), and have avoided the stuck recirc I would occasionally get from crushing finer on my 2-roller.

https://www.homebrewfinds.com/2020/04/hands-on-review-monster-mill-mm-3-grain-mill.html

Crush improves the rate of conversion dramatically, and it also reduces the amount of time needed for osmosis to equilibrate the sparge water with the grain particles, but it does create a tighter grain bed and increases the probability of channeling in a recirculating or fly sparged system.

You can get the exact same or higher efficiency with a coarser crush if you mash sufficiently long to ensure 100% conversion efficiency (60 min is long enough). And then sparge slowly enough to allow the sugar content of the sparge water to equilibrate with the grain particles as it passes through the bed (again 60 mins is long enough).

The uniformity of grain particle size doesn't affect efficiency much at all.

Many of my grain kernals in my mash appear to be whole unless you look at them closely and realize they are cracked while leaving the husk in tact. All it takes is for them to be cracked for water to get in. If water can get in, conversion and lautering can both occur.

When I taste them after the sparge there is no detected sweetness so they haven't gone to waste. And I have checked with an iodine test as well, and I routinely hit between 85-90% mash efficiency for an average OG beer (1.050). all good!

 

[Golddiggie]

He may have been referring to my discussion above about mill gap settings and mash efficiency. If you want more detail about the 3-roller mill, in my review link below I have pictures of the different grain crush between 2-roller and 3-roller set at different gaps. As I noted in that review, I could visibly see better crush with the 3-roller mill (all grains at least cracked), and have avoided the stuck recirc I would occasionally get from crushing finer on my 2-roller.

https://www.homebrewfinds.com/2020/04/hands-on-review-monster-mill-mm-3-grain-mill.html

Yup...

Don't get me wrong, I love my MM2 that I bought in 2011. But if I can get better results by going to the three roller version, it's at least worth considering. I've sent a message off to the man at Monster with some questions around the mills they have now. Both the geared, and non-geared, mill call out processing over 200k pound of grain (hardened steel rollers FTW!). I'd just need to get the new hopper for the 3 roller mill since the one on my two roller probably won't work (mating to the mill itself). My existing mill cart should work fine for the new mill. Since it's already setup with their motor and such.

If I can get away with the non-geared mill, I'll probably do that. I'll then be posting up my current mill for sale.

Also, my grist ranges from about 11# to about 25# currently. Most are in the 18-20# range. Which is why I also have the hopper with extension. Simply load it up one time, place catch container under mill, flip the switch, and let it ride.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yup...

Don't get me wrong, I love my MM2 that I bought in 2011. But if I can get better results by going to the three roller version, it's at least worth considering. I've sent a message off to the man at Monster with some questions around the mills they have now. Both the geared, and non-geared, mill call out processing over 200k pound of grain (hardened steel rollers FTW!). I'd just need to get the new hopper for the 3 roller mill since the one on my two roller probably won't work (mating to the mill itself). My existing mill cart should work fine for the new mill. Since it's already setup with their motor and such.

If I can get away with the non-geared mill, I'll probably do that. I'll then be posting up my current mill for sale.

Also, my grist ranges from about 11# to about 25# currently. Most are in the 18-20# range. Which is why I also have the hopper with extension. Simply load it up one time, place catch container under mill, flip the switch, and let it ride.

Well my point from the long post above, is you can get the same or better results with a relatively minor tweak to your process which is free, rather than the expense of a new mill. But everyone likes new toys!

 

[Golddiggie]

Yeah, new mill might be on the books for 2022. I have other things that have a higher priority level for the rest of this year. I also need to decide if I'm going to get a third conical fermenter (looking to try out the 15 gallon, jacketed conical from Brewers Hardware) and if I'll keep all three or try to sell one of my Spike CF10 fermenters. I kind of what the third conical so that I can also ferment cider and make mead while still keeping my beer schedule up. Of course, I now wish I had bought a glycol chiller that could handle four fermenters, not just two, when I got it earlier this year. I don't have the space to get a second two fermenter chiller. Putting the current one aside in favor of a newer one is also not easy do to limited space.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, if I was in the market for Yet Another Grain Mill it would have to have all rollers geared. Period.

Cheers!

 

[TheMadKing]

Yeah, new mill might be on the books for 2022. I have other things that have a higher priority level for the rest of this year. I also need to decide if I'm going to get a third conical fermenter (looking to try out the 15 gallon, jacketed conical from Brewers Hardware) and if I'll keep all three or try to sell one of my Spike CF10 fermenters. I kind of what the third conical so that I can also ferment cider and make mead while still keeping my beer schedule up. Of course, I now wish I had bought a glycol chiller that could handle four fermenters, not just two, when I got it earlier this year. I don't have the space to get a second two fermenter chiller. Putting the current one aside in favor of a newer one is also not easy do to limited space.

You my friend are what's known in the biz as a "gear ho"

 

[Golddiggie]

You my friend are what's known in the biz as a "gear ho"

I self identify as either a "geek" or "gear head".

Have you not seen how my setup has changed over the past year (or so)?

 

[Bobby_M]

What do you do?

I BIAB and get everything done in less than 4 hours @ 65-70% brewhouse but that's not really the topic in this thread.

Your current process is by the book, the most efficient way to fly sparge because it keeps the grain bed as fluid as possible. The only way a "full pull" fly sparge would dilute your wort runoff is if you have a channeling problem.

Back up. Your mash efficiency should be much higher. You need to either evaluate your crush, mash a little longer, or do a slow ramp to mash out temps to boost conversion.

If you are delivering the sparge with a coiled up silicone hose laying on the grain bed, I suspect channeling. Try keeping it from boring into the grain as much as possible and try getting about a 2" layer of water on top of the grain bed. Don't be afraid to break up the top 2" of mash while you're sparging with gentle raking with your paddle.

 

[TheMadKing]

I BIAB and get everything done in less than 4 hours @ 65-70% brewhouse but that's not really the topic in this thread.

Your current process is by the book, the most efficient way to fly sparge because it keeps the grain bed as fluid as possible. The only way a "full pull" fly sparge would dilute your wort runoff is if you have a channeling problem.

Back up. Your mash efficiency should be much higher. You need to either evaluate your crush, mash a little longer, or do a slow ramp to mash out temps to boost conversion.

If you are delivering the sparge with a coiled up silicone hose laying on the grain bed, I suspect channeling. Try keeping it from boring into the grain as much as possible and try getting about a 2" layer of water on top of the grain bed. Don't be afraid to break up the top 2" of mash while you're sparging with gentle raking with your paddle.

Thanks Bobby!

My mash efficiency should be higher than 77% with a 21.5 lb grain bill and 7.75 gal preboil?? I'm going to challenge that a bit. That's right in line with what Doug's chart predicted it should be, I believe.

I'm hitting 85-90% with an average sized grain bill with 75-80% brewhouse so I think I'm ok

As for the last part that's exactly what I do. I ramp to mash out, keep water over the grain bed and my water is added slowly through an aquarium manifold so that it isn't really disturbing the grain at all

Edit: and for the record, I can still do a brew day in 4.5 hours since I switched away from BIAB. That was one of the pleasant surprises of switching. I was expecting 6 hour brew days and honestly they aren't much different as long as I clean as I go.

 

[Jesse Runowski]

The purpose of recirculating is to maintain or change your mash temp and is not intended to have an effect on efficiency.

In fact recirculating tends to drop people's efficiency because it is very easy to cause channeling which reduces both conversion and lauter efficiency unless the brewer re-stirs the grain bed periodically. So unless the brewer let's the grain bed set, and then recirculates at a slow enough speed not to cause channeling, it does more harm than good

Can confirm, this was happening to me and it was a nightmare. Most notably when making hazy IPAs where my grain bill was 20-30% oat/wheat adjuncts. I was seeing mash efficiencies in the low 50s!!! I wanted to sell my brand new Spike 3V 15gal system and go back to my igloo coolers where I easily got 65-68%.

I ended up sending @TheMadKing a message about a year ago and thankfully he was nice enough to help me out. He gave me some great advice that ended up getting me back in the 70% range for mash eff. I still owe you some beers for that!!!

Just incase anyone is curious, this is now my mashing process...I have a herms system (3v spike 15gal).

• Mash in, stir for 2-5mins.
• Leave pumps off for 10mins, letting mash naturally settle.
• Turn pumps on, NPT slightly open creating a slow recirc flow for 10-15min, to help keep temp
• Turn pumps off stir for 2-5mins
• Repeat bullet points 2-4 over a 90 mash. I could probably do a 60 min mash but 90 makes me feel better.
• Mash out at 170.

The process above gets in the range of 70-75% mash eff, depending on grain bill. I'm super happy with my mashing process. I'm going to try monitoring my HLT vols suggested in this post and stop when I hit my sparge vol amount to see if I can get even more eff points.

My sparge process may need some work. With the mash process above on my last brew I hit 1.083 for my first runnings, pre-boil gravity I was shooting for was 1.059. After my sparge, 45mins slow trickle, stopping when I hit my pre-boil gravity, I hit exactly 1.059. Which is great, however that's a 24 point swing. That's usually what I see after a sparging. Does anyone else monitor their first runnings and pre-boil gravities? If so, is this low or about normal?

 

[TheMadKing]

Can confirm, this was happening to me and it was a nightmare. Most notably when making hazy IPAs where my grain bill was 20-30% oat/wheat adjuncts. I was seeing mash efficiencies in the low 50s!!! I wanted to sell my brand new Spike 3V 15gal system and go back to my igloo coolers where I easily got 65-68%.

I ended up sending @TheMadKing a message about a year ago and thankfully he was nice enough to help me out. He gave me some great advice that ended up getting me back in the 70% range for mash eff. I still owe you some beers for that!!!

Just incase anyone is curious, this is now my mashing process...I have a herms system (3v spike 15gal).

• Mash in, stir for 2-5mins.
• Leave pumps off for 10mins, letting mash naturally settle.
• Turn pumps on, NPT slightly open creating a slow recirc flow for 10-15min, to help keep temp
• Turn pumps off stir for 2-5mins
• Repeat bullet points 2-4 over a 90 mash. I could probably do a 60 min mash but 90 makes me feel better.
• Mash out at 170.

The process above gets in the range of 70-75% mash eff, depending on grain bill. I'm super happy with my mashing process. I'm going to try monitoring my HLT vols suggested in this post and stop when I hit my sparge vol amount to see if I can get even more eff points.

My sparge process may need some work. With the mash process above on my last brew I hit 1.083 for my first runnings, pre-boil gravity I was shooting for was 1.059. After my sparge, 45mins slow trickle, stopping when I hit my pre-boil gravity, I hit exactly 1.059. Which is great, however that's a 24 point swing. That's usually what I see after a sparging. Does anyone else monitor their first runnings and pre-boil gravities? If so, is this low or about normal?

Glad I was able to help! You could definitely get that efficiency up a bit higher with a slower more gentle sparge.

Just FYI, your first runnings (i.e. the gravity in your mash tun before runoff) is based solely on your mash thickness. https://braukaiser.com/wiki/images/3/3c/First_wort_gravity.gif

I have started checking it in the mash tun as a sanity check before I sparge just to make sure I haven't had something go wrong in the mash like dough balls or bad channeling that has reduced my conversion efficiency.

The one pitfall to watch out for is measuring your volume. Your mash thickness needs to include any wort in your recirculating lines and hoses, so I measure the strike water volume before opening any valves to make sure I know what it is.

 

[Section1]

I've always left water behind in the MT. I usually stop the sparge water before I have the boil volume but the water level is still close to the top of the the grain bed but no longer above it. I always thought that as long as water moves over the grain bed it was moving sugars out. It always looked to me that most of the sugar was removed early in the sparge since the running towards the end look really clear.

 

[Jaybird]

That's a thing of beauty!

Except I think you're probably creating channels in your grain bed by recirculating that fast, rather than setting it with uniform porosity

Glad to see you chatting again Jay!

Glad to be able to be chatting again brother! Getting things turned around.

With my system, if I wasn't consistently north of 85% Mash efficiency I would probably agree with you or at least think I was channeling too. I have tried it many different ways. Fast, slow, underlet, full volume, a REAL mash out, batch and fly and a few others. I have landed on this process for my system because of the absolute consistent results. I have also dissected many of grain beds ( do it just for fun if you haven't) I just feel If you have a false bottom with the proper surface area and one that can handle the strain of setting the bed hard and fast without collapsing or getting stuck. I can "almost" guarantee you will see clearer wort and higher mash efficiency. But the AWESOME thing here in the sparging process is every system is going to be and act a little different.

Cheers
Jay

 

[odie]

I started holding back about 2 gal from my full volume BIAB. I have my bag in a basket with solid sides so all the wort must flow down and not to the sides. I let the basket drain most of the wort and then slowly sprinkle sparge water onto the not-so-wet grain bed thru a perforated pizza pan so it spreads the water out pretty evenly and rises much of the residual sugars. My SG numbers definitely bumped a little.

 

[cire]

Kettle on the left, mash tun (insulated) center, and a Klarstein as HLT on right.

The Valentine arm on the MT outlet controls its liquor level, and is set by the angular displacement at the tap.

There is a description of a valentine arm on HBT, but that one is fixed and therefore impractical. During a mash, the grainbed will settle and can be as much as 10% in the thickest of mashes, so it is can be vital to match the runoff level to the grainbed.

Here 2 solar pumps control the sparge rate and lift the wort from the MT into the kettle.

High mash efficiency is a bonus when brewing high gravity beers, so the OP deserves congratulations for what was achieved. For myself I use refractometer readings and monitor kettle volume to determine the proportion extracted, then adjust the speed of the sparge accordingly.

A Valentine arm suitably adjusted should avoid channeling in a homogenous mash.

 

[Jesse Runowski]

Just FYI, your first runnings (i.e. the gravity in your mash tun before runoff) is based solely on your mash thickness. https://braukaiser.com/wiki/images/3/3c/First_wort_gravity.gif

Have you settled on a mash thickness you prefer? I assume you use adjust thickness depending on the styles/grain bill. Just out of curiosity, what would you use for a 6% ipa vs a heavy oat stout around 9%. Most of the time I've been using 1.25-1.33 based on recommendations from Spike.

I have started checking it in the mash tun as a sanity check before I sparge just to make sure I haven't had something go wrong in the mash like dough balls or bad channeling that has reduced my conversion efficiency.

Same here. After what happened last year, I like to know what I'm dealing with before I start my sparge.

 

[TheMadKing]

Have you settled on a mash thickness you prefer? I assume you use adjust thickness depending on the styles/grain bill. Just out of curiosity, what would you use for a 6% ipa vs a heavy oat stout around 9%. Most of the time I've been using 1.25-1.33 based on recommendations from Spike.



Same here. After what happened last year, I like to know what I'm dealing with before I start my sparge.

I usually use 1.5 qt/lb as a mash thickness unless I'm brewing something with high oats then I'll go down to 1.25 to encourage proteolysis or a very malty style like oktoberfest. It may be in my head, but I seem to notice more bready malt flavors with a thicker mash

 

[doug293cz]

Have you settled on a mash thickness you prefer? I assume you use adjust thickness depending on the styles/grain bill. Just out of curiosity, what would you use for a 6% ipa vs a heavy oat stout around 9%. Most of the time I've been using 1.25-1.33 based on recommendations from Spike.



Same here. After what happened last year, I like to know what I'm dealing with before I start my sparge.

From strictly a lauter efficiency standpoint:

• If fly sparging, make the mash as thick as you are comfortable with, and use the balance of your water for fly sparging.
• If batch sparging, set your strike and sparge volumes so that you will get approximately equal volumes for each run off. A good rule of thumb is 60:40 strike to sparge for single batch sparge, and 50:25:25 for double batch sparge. For large grain bills you may have to use more strike volume and less sparge volume to prevent the mash from being too thick.

Brew on

 

[DarrellQ]

How do folks sparge that have the electric brew systems such as the Foundry, which calls for a gallon of water to be poured over grains after raising basket at the end of the mash? I always follow this method and have predicted efficiency, but wonder if it's necessary?

 

[TheMadKing]

I

How do folks sparge that have the electric brew systems such as the Foundry, which calls for a gallon of water to be poured over grains after raising basket at the end of the mash? I always follow this method and have predicted efficiency, but wonder if it's necessary?

have helped a friend brew both on his old Grainfather and his new Foundry. He definitely struggled with efficiency with both system and it was mostly because of channelling, but he also increased his sparge water slightly and thickened his mash as Doug suggested above and it boosted his efficiency a bit