Taste difference between extract and whole grain

[Gavin C]

Hey, what's wrong with spring water?

I admit to occasionally buying a couple jugs of spring water for my lighter beers, rather than hoping the Campden tablet did its job. I like the clean, non-chlorinated base that spring water provides, without having to worry about adding in a bunch of minerals (as in distilled or RO water).

Its a meaningless term. Some folks use it to mean bottled water from Walmart which is probably RO from a municipal source.

Others use it to mean I buy x gallons of y brand of water.

What's its mineral content?
Is it on the bottle?
Is it suited to brewing?
Is it suited to that style of beer?

If your going to invest and spend orders of magnitude more money on store bought water over tap water you probably want to know its mineral content precisely.

Are Perrier, Fugi, Avian spring waters? Are they suited to brewing? Yes to the former and I have no idea to the latter, never looked at the minerals.

It is simply a meaningless term that requires explanation regarding the mineral content and why this is suitable for brewing.

RO water is a simple term, you know what your getting
Distilled water the same. "It does exactly what it says on the tin".
Spring water, no clue what someone means. It's as specific as tap water

 

[stpug]

Its a meaningless term. Some folks use it to mean bottled water from Walmart which is probably RO from a municipal source.

Others use it to mean I buy x gallons of y brand of water.

What's its mineral content?
Is it on the bottle?
Is it suited to brewing?
Is it suited to that style of beer?

If your going to invest and spend orders of magnitude more money on store bought water over tap water you probably want to know its mineral content precisely.

Are Perrier, Fugi, Avian spring waters? Are they suited to brewing? Yes to the former and I have no idea to the latter, never looked at the minerals.

It is simply a meaningless term that requires explanation regarding the mineral content and why this is suitable for brewing.

RO water is a simple term, you know what your getting
Distilled water the same. "It does exactly what it says on the tin".
Spring water, no clue what someone means. It's as specific as tap water

No, no, no... Gavin, you have it all wrong.

Spring Water = water from a spring. And we all know that if the water comes from a spring then it's the best the earth can offer. End of subject.... or is it.

I have a public spring not far from my house. Here are some specs in ppm:
290+ alkalinity
120+ calcium
180+ chloride
160+ sulfate
50+ magnesium
with a splash of chloroform and perchlorate to boot.

I can't figure out why no one likes my beer

 

[Gavin C]

No, no, no... Gavin, you have it all wrong.

Spring Water = water from a spring. And we all know that if the water comes from a spring then it's the best the earth can offer. End of subject.... or is it.

I have a public spring not far from my house. Here are some specs in ppm:
290+ alkalinity
120+ calcium
180+ chloride
160+ sulfate
50+ magnesium
with a splash of chloroform and perchlorate to boot.

I can't figure out why no one likes my beer

Can you ship to 75039. 8 gallons please.

 

[khillian]

I think there is a difference in simple beers where base malts count. Switched to partial BIAB recently and the difference is noticeable. Especially in blonds, pilsners, and pale ales. Being able to use different base malts really adds complexity to these beers. If you have lots of steeping grains (crystal/roasted) with extract I think the difference is less noticeable.

I have an 8 gallon pot, use 5 gallon paint strainer bags (buy in bulk, throw them out with the grain, easy clean up). Brewing in a one bedroom apartment in SF, thank god for my gas stove in the kitchen. I can all grain beers with 8 pounds of grain to around 1.042 for a 6 gallon batch, if it's a higher gravity I use DME/Sugar to get the gravity up. Since switching from steeping/extract my simple hoppy pale ales now have malt flavor and aroma, blending base malts is fun. In beers like English Milds you have greater control of your final gravity which with extract your locked into the manufacturers mash.

But as said before, sanitation, yeast handling, and temp control are far more important. Everyone needs to nail those pieces of the process down before the effects of partial/all grain would make a significant difference.

 

[wsmith1625]

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter which method makes better beer. What matters is that you're making beer. Awesome right!

I'm sure both methods make good beer, but whichever method you choose, better ingredient and better technique are going to produce better beer. Some brewers do not have the time or money to invest in all grain brewing, so I would not discourage extract brewing to anyone.

I dragged my feet for a long time before starting to brew because I was dead set on going all grain. Finally while on a brewery tour, I was taking with the master brewer/owner and mentioned to him that I wanted to start brewing my own beers and just didn't have the money to get all the equipment I needed. He told me that it's pretty cheap to do extract brews and he made some really solid beer back in his extract days. I took his advice and now brew using extract. My goal is to perfect my technique and eventually give all grain a try.

Good topic though! Thanks!

 

[Brewernaut51]

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter which method makes better beer. What matters is that you're making beer. Awesome right!

I'm sure both methods make good beer, but whichever method you choose, better ingredient and better technique are going to produce better beer. Some brewers do not have the time or money to invest in all grain brewing, so I would not discourage extract brewing to anyone.

I dragged my feet for a long time before starting to brew because I was dead set on going all grain. Finally while on a brewery tour, I was taking with the master brewer/owner and mentioned to him that I wanted to start brewing my own beers and just didn't have the money to get all the equipment I needed. He told me that it's pretty cheap to do extract brews and he made some really solid beer back in his extract days. I took his advice and now brew using extract. My goal is to perfect my technique and eventually give all grain a try.

Good topic though! Thanks!

That's the way I feel too. A lot of people have made great beers with extract. For me it's all about time. Extracts shave 1 1/2 to 2 hours off my brew days. They're also a good way to learn and buy equipment over time rather than all at once.

 

[mcspanner]

OP, I see you're in the UK. When you go into most brew stores here and ask about extract brewing, most of the time you'll be shown a selection of cans similar to the Wherry kit or the brewferm Belgian selections. Very few stores that I've visited do extract recipe kits requiring full or partial boils as discussed here. One notable exception is BrewUk in Salisbury, who have a section of recipe kits using DME and hops. These need a little more time and equipment to brew but the results are in a different league to the type of kits you have been using and you're much more involved in making the beer.

I often use pizza as an analogy for these kits, what you're doing is like buying a frozen pizza and sticking it in the oven. You still need to get the temp right in the oven and cook it for the right length of time, but is it really making the pizza?

Next step up is to buy a ready made pizza base, put your own tomato sauce and toppings on it, then cook at the right temp and time - you've made you're own pizza to your own tastes using pre-made components. Here the base is the extract and the sauce and toppings are the hops and steeping grains etc.

Finally you have a pizza that you've crafted from scratch; mixing, kneading and proving the dough, blending fresh tomatoes and herbs for the sauce etc then baking it. This might actually be the best pizza you've ever tasted....maybe. This is all-grain brewing.

Is the frozen pizza awful? Of course not- it's pizza ( hmmmm pizza). Assuming you get the oven temps and times right of course. Not everyone has the time or equipment to make beer from scratch using all grain techniques, and not everyone wants to- find what's right for you and understand the pros and cons of each technique.

 

[malky1841]

Wow thanks for all the advice folks.

I guess its a divided subject I'm going to do a quick gravity test on my first wholegrain IPA tonight. Its been brewing 7 days now and the airlocks stopped bubbling so I'll do one tonight and another in a couple of days to see if its still dropping. Really looking forward to seeing the difference in this and the (NO boil) basic kits i've been brewing these past few years.

Some asked the difference between bottled and tap water. London water is horrible in my opinion so I use a Tesco's brand Scottish spring water that someone who has many more years brewing experience than me said had good PH balance and mineral content for most ales so I've stuck with that.

The wife isnt to impressed by all the clutter accumulated by all this brewing malarky. She said quote "Bloody hell Mal! the kitchen looks like Walter Whites lab!"

 

[malky1841]

I think you may not be making all-grain beer. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Are these the kits you are using?



Yes Gavin thats the sort of Kits I'm brewing.

I know they're not whole grain kits that was my reason for asking. My problem was with these kits (no boil) liquid extract was that once finished the beer looks and tastes different but they all smelled the same.

I did my first whole grain brew last sunday Boil, strain sparge ect and the smell was completely different in the brew when I pitched the yeast compared to the kits at the same stage of the process. I was just wondering if that was just me or if it was normal to have the kit home brew smell. Hard to describe, kind of sweet yeasty smell but the same smell regarding if its a summer ale IPA or a bitter and also regardless of manufacture.

I'll have a look at these videos Cheers for taking the time to post them, much appreciated

 

[malky1841]

Lol that first video!. Very informative but the guy in it, a natural presenter he definitely is not !

 

[Brewernaut51]

The wife isnt to impressed by all the clutter accumulated by all this brewing malarky. She said quote "Bloody hell Mal! the kitchen looks like Walter Whites lab!"

Mine hated the smell of boiling hops when I was doing it in the kitchen so I got kicked out to the garage. Its not heated so it can be a bit nippy out there in a Michigan January. Gets better once the boil is going. Of course then I have to have a door open so I don't kill myself with CO poisoning so it never really gets warm.

 

[Gavin C]

Lol that first video!. Very informative but the guy in it, a natural presenter he definitely is not !

He's a member of HBT after someone discovered this great video. He was interviewed by one of the moderators ( @passedpawn ) and the article appeared on the front page. Tremendous stuff.

@Mongster

He has another freaking brilliant one. "Brewing a hillbilly beer". You gotta watch it. Can't get the link at the moment. Youtube blocked at work.

 

[frettfreak]

Some asked the difference between bottled and tap water. London water is horrible in my opinion so I use a Tesco's brand Scottish spring water that someone who has many more years brewing experience than me said had good PH balance and mineral content for most ales so I've stuck with that.

The grain bill has way more to do with you wort composition and pH that the water you use. What "minerals" and in what concentration they are in in the mineral water could also be a huge factor. The problem is, you have no idea what minerals they are adding and certain ones make a huge difference in what the grains will do to the pH of your wort.

Darker malts will have more of an affect on you pH than lighter Malts. But if your WORT (not water) pH is way off, (ideal range will be between 5.1 and 5.4 depending on the desired results) your gonna get off flavors and tannins. There is a sticky in the water forum that breaks it down way better and gives you a super easy way to treat your water (RO water) which would at least give you a KNOWN starting place.

But for what it's worth... London tap water has made some pretty iconic and amazing beer... You could just get a carbon filter, filter your water and see what that gives you. 🍻

Keep us posted on your tasting!

 

[Gavin C]

After living in London for 6 months many years ago I would completely identify with the OP's concerns on his water's flavor.

The old joke about all of London's water being filtered through 6 sets of kydneys comes to mind.

I would not disaggree that there are some great beers coming from London. It's such a vast geographical area though that water will vary greatly from borough to borough.

 

[malky1841]

Looking at the state of my taps and the shower window at the end of each week I have come to the conclusion its probably better drinking from the water butt in the garden. I use a brita filter for our tea coffee ect but thats to much for one wee filter to handle one batch of beer. I agree though there are some great beers in London. My local craft brewery " The Brockley brewery" does a stunning red ale thats one of my favourites apart from Jail ale which is a west country beer. If you haven't tried it then I urgently suggest you get your taste buds round that cheeky little number. I unfortunately cant seem to get it in my part of London.

I'll let you know tomorrow what the ol hydrometer sample tastes like on my mosaic IPA.

 

[malky1841]

So I did a gravity reading last night and its 5.3% which is pretty much what it says in the box. I had a cheeky taste of the sample and its worlds apart from what I was getting before!. Smells of floral citrus and a nice clean refreshing taste with peachy hints a nice bitter note at the end. LURVLEY!. If this is what I'm in for after 2 weeks plus in the bottle then I'm sold!.

So I had a look at the partial mash kits as I don't have the equipment to brew a whole 5 gallon batch in my wee London flat and I can pretty much use what I have already with these. Can anyone recommend a link to a good partial mash kit that I can get in the UK?. I did a search but they all seem to be state side.

Bitters, golden ales, red ales, IPA's something of that description?.

 

[mcspanner]

So I did a gravity reading last night and its 5.3% which is pretty much what it says in the box. I had a cheeky taste of the sample and its worlds apart from what I was getting before!. Smells of floral citrus and a nice clean refreshing taste with peachy hints a nice bitter note at the end. LURVLEY!. If this is what I'm in for after 2 weeks plus in the bottle then I'm sold!.

So I had a look at the partial mash kits as I don't have the equipment to brew a whole 5 gallon batch in my wee London flat and I can pretty much use what I have already with these. Can anyone recommend a link to a good partial mash kit that I can get in the UK?. I did a search but they all seem to be state side.

Bitters, golden ales, red ales, IPA's something of that description?.

If you want a true partial mash you might struggle to source that here, the supplier I mentioned in my last post do lots of kits with steeping grains which are similar but not a full PM ( the differences are explained in this article http://byo.com/hops/item/1414-steeping-vs-partial-mashing ). If you look at the recipe database here you can find lots of Partial mash recipes then just order the ingredients you need, freeing you from being limited to kits.

 

[malky1841]

If you want a true partial mash you might struggle to source that here, the supplier I mentioned in my last post do lots of kits with steeping grains which are similar but not a full PM ( the differences are explained in this article http://byo.com/hops/item/1414-steeping-vs-partial-mashing ). If you look at the recipe database here you can find lots of Partial mash recipes then just order the ingredients you need, freeing you from being limited to kits.

Cheers for that. I saw that website yesterday and I'm thinking of trying the Tribute recipe pack.

 

[Gavin C]

Just an idea. I don't want to sound like I'm trying to convert you or anything.

But how about a 2.5 gallon (~10L) all-grain batch using BIAB

If you have a 4-5 gallon pot and a half decent kitchen stove, you'll need to buy a couple of paint-strainer bags. ~$5 here. Can be much more in the UK. That's all.

This will open a whole new range of options to you and your apartment brewery.

Anyway. Just a thought.

 

[mcspanner]

One of my friends has made the Landlord recipe, with great results. I got bought a couple of their all grain clone recipes as gifts ( I usually create my own recipes) and they turned out well. The Summer Lightning clone was spot on.