Taste difference between extract and whole grain

[malky1841]

I know this is a hotly discussed topic.

I've been brewing extract kits for quite some time now and although they are good and I've followed the instructions to the letter they always come out ......well tasting like home brew!.

its the smell of the extract even when its in the fermenting bucket before the yeast is added never quite leaves the smell of the finished brew. If I had a blindfold on and had a kit brew and a similar commercial placed in front of me I can smell the difference right away. This is my brews i'm on about so maybe you guys can tell me if that shouldn't be right?.

Last weekend I ventured into the whole grain area to see if this would taste any different. I was given a stove topper IPA beginners kit and right away during the mash the smell was completely different!. Hot Digestive biscuits but also ale !.

Now its in the demijohn bubbling away happily I'm interested to see if this will have that home brewy smell or will I finally produce something that not only tastes good which my other brews did but smells like a beer should to.

Can anyone here tell me, does wholegrain brews taste / smell better than extract kits or am I doing something wrong.

I should add I only use the premium kits and spray malt instead of sugar or dextrose.

 

[Kharnynb]

"homebrew" taste is a bit broad, but it might be "hot" alcohols from too warm fermentation?

 

[malky1841]

Hmm maybe.

I tend to brew in the winter months when its cold outside and in my shed. I have a tropical fish tank heater with a thermostat (Sterilised) that I set to the right fermenting temps normally about 16 or 17c so I know outside wont reach that high and the heater in the brew will kick in if the temp starts to get below the set temp on the thermostat.

The instructions on this stove topper kit asks for fermenting at 20c and I know its not that outside so the heater should keep it at 20c.

Its hard to describe the smell I get. Its the same for every kit I've made. The smell of the extract when you add the water and start mixing. It just smells...Aaargh! er overly malty yeasty fruity. Now that sounds right but trust me the smell is the same whatever brew I do in the end IPA, Bitter, Golden summer ale all different manufactures but same smell. its not what you get from a pub bought pint.

I'm starting to sound like a loon lol.

 

[Kharnynb]

are all kits from the same company? could be a company or yeast specific flavour?

 

[Homercidal]

It's been a long time since I've brewed with liquid extract, but I know the smell you are talking about. I'm not sure it comes through in the finished beer for me, but the smell I get when mashing grain and collecting wort is different than extract mixed up in water.

 

[ncbrewer]

It's been a long time since I've brewed with liquid extract, but I know the smell you are talking about. I'm not sure it comes through in the finished beer for me, but the smell I get when mashing grain and collecting wort is different than extract mixed up in water.

I agree that it smells different at that stage, but I don't feel that it carries into the finished beer, assuming you follow good practices. One other guess about what you are smelling - could be scorched extract from adding while still on the burner or not mixing in thoroughly before putting it back on the heat.

 

[malky1841]

They're all from different breweries. I'm glad you said that Homercidal. Fermenting temps aside would there be anything else I could be doing to stop that extract smell carrying on onto the finished brew?. Maybe I should set my heater a degree or so lower if thats the case?.

 

[malky1841]

Hi ncbrewer

In the recipes in the premium kits it says to add the extract to the fermenting bin, add a litre of hot water then top up with cold water to the 25 gallon mark make sure its at 16c stirr well to aerate then pitch the yeast. They don't mention putting it on the burner.

 

[botigol]

Hi ncbrewer

In the recipes in the premium kits it says to add the extract to the fermenting bin, add a litre of hot water then top up with cold water to the 25 gallon mark make sure its at 16c stirr well to aerate then pitch the yeast. They don't mention putting it on the burner.

When/how do the instructions have you adding the hops?

 

[stpug]

I, for one, noticed a definitive difference with my first all grain batch, and the result was better than I ever produced with extract. I believe with techniques I've learned and quality fresh extract that I could produce a good extract batch now, but at this point I prefer having the versatility and quality of all grain. There's more room for error with all grain but more room for success too, IMHO.

 

[Gavin C]

I should add I only use the premium kits and spray malt instead of sugar or dextrose.

Putting to one side the debate in taste difference between well made beers using malt extract or malted grains as their base fermentable.

There are few who would argue that beer kits using a high proportion of simple sugars as fermentables in the recipe will be on a par with well made beers using either malt extract or malted barley as the primary fermentable.

I think that will be a significant factor in the improvements your tastebuds and nasal receptors are experiencing.

Having said that, there are of course a myriad of potential non-recipe related causes for odd/off tastes or smells from homebrewed beers.

 

[malky1841]

Different kits ask to add the hops at different times but usually they say to add them to the fermenting bucket 3 or 4 days after you've sealed the lid and set the airlock then leave for another 6 to 10 days.

 

[Gavin C]

Different kits ask to add the hops at different times but usually they say to add them to the fermenting bucket 3 or 4 days after you've sealed the lid and set the airlock then leave for another 6 to 10 days.

That is called dry hopping with, I might add, very bad instructions.

Typically dry-hopping is carried out after fermentation is completed for anywhere from 3 to 7 days prior to packaging the beer.

Typically this is not done 3-4 days after pitching yeast.

I would steer clear of kits with this type of instruction.

Many hop-accented beers will incorporate some type of dry-hopping and/or late hop addition to the boil or hot wort after flameout, in the recipe.

 

[botigol]

Would you mind posting one entire set of instructions? I ask, because I don't see a bittering hop addition which would balance the residual sweetness of the finished beer. Although maybe you're dealing with pre-hopped extract.

 

[MaxStout]

If one were to control all the off-flavor variables that would cloud the distinction, such as ferm temps, pitch rates, etc., I think that the differences between an extract beer and an identical beer brewed all-grain would be virtually imperceptible. I have heard some people talk about a so-called "extract twang," but that might be due to the drinker knowing the beer was from extract.

It would be interesting to see a double-blind taste test with identical pairs of beers and find out if it is noticeable.

 

[Gavin C]

If one were to control all the off-flavor variables that would cloud the distinction, such as ferm temps, pitch rates, etc., I think that the differences between an extract beer and an identical beer brewed all-grain would be virtually imperceptible. I have heard some people talk about a so-called "extract twang," but that might be due to the drinker knowing the beer was from extract.

It would be interesting to see a double-blind taste test with identical pairs of beers and find out if it is noticeable.

not double blind but you guessed it did an exbeeriment on this.

And another not double blinded study by Woodland brewing

 

[kombat]

As noted, it's a hotly-contested topic. In my opinion, "extract twang" exists, and I've experienced it in my own brews. In my case, I believe it was due to using older pre-hopped LME kits. The taste is an odd sort of malty sweetness that distracts from the overall enjoyment of the beer.

Yes, yes, I know that lots of people have brewed award-winning beers using extract (but that doesn't mean they're delicious - it just means they were better than their immediate competition on that particular day), and that extract doesn't automatically mean bad, and there are lots of other factors, yada yada yada. But I brew exclusively all-grain now, and my beers are consistently better than the best beer I ever made using extract.

Shortly after I started brewing, I even did an experiment. I had an expired pre-hopped LME kit ("Mexican Cerveza"). I applied everything I'd learned about brewing and did the kit in the best way possible. I used spring water, I threw away the kit yeast and used some lager yeast slurry from another beer I'd brewed, I controlled fermentation temperature. It was decent, but still had that extract "twang" to it (probably because of the expired LME).

Anyway, I understand not everyone agrees, but in my opinion, "extract twang" is real, and in general, all grain beer tastes better.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I'm guessing it's because you're using crappy, possibly old, pre-hopped, no-boil extract kits. I've not done extract in years, but I hear people make great beer with them. Maybe the extract was prepared with a really high mash temp leading to excess maltiness. When you do all-grain, you can mash lower to increase fermentability. If you really want to compare, get some fresher LME or DME, do a full boil, and use fresh hops added in the boil. That will give you a better idea of the best extract brewing has to offer.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, in my extract days I had a high-BJCP-muck-a-muck sample four different beer styles I had on tap and he was floored when I told them they were all extract brews.

I wouldn't sell extract brewing short.

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

not double blind but you guessed it did an exbeeriment on this.

And another not double blinded study by Woodland brewing

Those are interesting--thanks for the links. I was surprised by both, in that there was a preference by the tasters toward the extract beers. I expected it to be a fairly even split.

 

[joshesmusica]

as shown in the exbeeriment, i would say the likely cause of the "twang" is simply that the extract has undergone a change in color and flavor that doesn't happen in the process with all-grain.

as far as the OP, you're just using ****ty kits. I do all-grain only now, but mostly for cost's sake. I made very good beers with extract and steeping grains. I like AG better because I now have control over the entire process.

 

[Kharnynb]

I've made a few beers with cooper's kits that were selling out
(20 cents per kit, they were almost over date, european rules prevent shops from selling them then).

With some additions and relatively basic procedures, using dme and honey, the white beer was really nice, and it took me 3 tries with all-grain to get a result as good as the kit.
Basic draught kits aren't all that, but made a decent cali-steam beer, not good enough to repeat though.
second draught kit i made into a cinnamon spiced kit with amber dme, that went over well with female drinkers.

 

[kombat]

fwiw, in my extract days I had a high-BJCP-muck-a-muck sample four different beer styles I had on tap and he was floored when I told them they were all extract brews.

How'd they score in competitions?

 

[Homercidal]

Different kits ask to add the hops at different times but usually they say to add them to the fermenting bucket 3 or 4 days after you've sealed the lid and set the airlock then leave for another 6 to 10 days.

Getting back on subject here...

Based on your description, I think your kit is likely a Pre-hopped extract kit, meaning the hops are already "dissolved" in the syrup. (Actually, that's not the correct term. The hop resins are ISOMERIZED by the boil before they condense the wort into syrup.)

These kits are really easy to make, but unfortunately leave a little to be desired in flavor at the end.

I'm not sure how to correct an issue with those because I haven't brewed one of those since my very first brew, a Mount Mellick American Lite Lager way back in '91.

My advice would be to move up a step in brewing and buy a kit that includes hops and even some grain that you can steep for additional flavors. These are the more common extract kits and I think if you buy a fresh one (extract does degrade) you should be able to improve the flavor of your beers.

You may also decide to skip a pre-packaged kit and simply buy extract and hops and whatnot outside of a kit. It's not quite as convenient, but a lot of people enjoy the freedom of brewing something they put together themselves (even if they basically copied a recipe from the Internet!)

I HIGHLY recommend that you read through the beginners forum on some of the tried-and-true methods. There is a lot of information that can make beers turn out better. A few of them you may look into:

Late Extract Additions
Full Boils
Wort Chillers
Partial Mash brewing
Steeping Grains
Aeration

There are lots more topics that could be covered. As you can see in this thread there are different ways to brew that are hotly discussed. It's hard to find many things are are cut-and-dried. Generally there are "acceptable" methods that some people don't do, but others prefer.

Personally, I don't brew extract, but it's not due to concerns over the finished beer. I just prefer the ability to control those things I can control in All Grain brewing. And cost. It's much cheaper to brew with grain instead of extract.

I think if you use fresh extract, and actually boil your hops yourself, using good water without chlorine or chloramines, ferment at a good temp, pitch the right amount of healthy yeast, you can make really good beer.

 

[day_trippr]

How'd they score in competitions?

They didn't. The judge was a friend of a friend and happened by the house one evening...and I've never felt compelled to enter competitions...

Cheers!

 

[frettfreak]

They're all from different breweries. I'm glad you said that Homercidal. Fermenting temps aside would there be anything else I could be doing to stop that extract smell carrying on onto the finished brew?. Maybe I should set my heater a degree or so lower if thats the case?.

Is your heater actually measuring the temp of the beer or the ambient temps in the room? I ask because the beer/wort temp can raise as much as 10 degrees when fermenting. If heater is set on a thermostat to 68, you beer could be fermenting MUCH higher leading to flavors.

As far as the original question, IMO, good beer can be made from extract if you know what you are doing and execute well. However, i have had WAY more beers that i could tell was an extract than not. I actually started with all grain, had made some good beers as well... then i won a kit at a raffle that was a partial mash with DME. Obviously i didnt know what i was doing and the instructions DEFINITELY lead me down the wrong path (why do the instructions always suck SO BAD??) but that beer was one of the worst beers i have made to date (and that was a couple years ago). Obviously, that was my fault but i have never made an AG batch i had to dump lol

I love that brulosophy website by the way Gavin C.! awesome stuff all OVER but the differnce in color and taste in the LME vs All Grain lead me to believe that there is more there that is different than we know. IMO, you should do that with DME, which seems to get results much closer to AG than LME. All this is anecdotal but with the color that off, and the comments, there has to be some carmalization that happens with LME at some point. Awesome site though!!!!

 

[brewcat]

One key is probably using fresh extract. But also improving the rest of your brewing process. I think a couple big things you can do on brew day. Full boils or late extract addition on partial boil. Mini mash/steeping grains. After that controlling fermentation temperature.

 

[solbes]

I've used old extract (not pre-hopped either). It had that twang taste, and it was not pleasant. Use fresh!! Also if you are using liquid extract, it should be stirred in very carefully to avoid scorching on the bottom. And add half of it within 5 minutes of flameout (to minimize change in wort color).

Order your kits or extract from a brew shop that turns it over very quickly, follow the above suggestions, and I feel like you can make extract beer that is every bit as good as AG beer. I still go back to it on occasion (partial mash) when I need to boost the gravity without my grain bills getting to be an unmanageable size.

 

[Brewernaut51]

not double blind but you guessed it did an exbeeriment on this.

And another not double blinded study by Woodland brewing

Those were pretty good reads there. Really interesting.

Something in the Woodland one caught my attention though. The author said he uses distilled water with his extract brews because the minerals are already in the extracts. Could that change the differences in flavor some people percieve. If some one used tap water with extracts would that have a big impact on flavor?

As far as the actual subject of the thread goes I started with extracts then moved to all grain. After my second son was born I found AG brew days were just too long so I switched back to extract just to keep my hobby going. Since I have the equipment to do AG beers I do full boils and basically brew the same as an AG Brewer minus the mash and all the prep and cleanup that goes with it. My extract brews are pretty good. The only real difference I run into are higher FGs but that doesn't bother me.

Try finding some fresh kits with unhopped extracts where you do the boil yourself. My LHBSs all seem to carry Brewer's Best kits (I assume they all use the same supplier) and I was always happy with those.

The primary thing to remember about LMEs is to always turn off the burner before adding the extract and make sure its completely dissolved before firing back up. I ruined an Amber I was making once by scorching the extract while trying to rush a bit. First time I ever "burned" a beer. It had the flavor of burnt marshmallows.

 

[zarfus]

I think i have 10-15 extract brews under my belt...all of them were (at best) ok. All of those were top-off partial boils. My dad brews extract exclusively, full boils, and they are infinitely better.

Then i did BIAB, and have 30+ under my belt. What a difference...amazing. These have all been full boils. My lame conclusion is that it's either the local water, or the lack of full boil. Comparatively, i believe i can taste the "extract taste" in his...not nearly as bad as my extract brews. Cheers!

 

[malky1841]

Hi Homercidal ( Lol that feels weird typing that!) And everyone else. Thanks for responding.

All the kits I've brewed in the past 3 years have been premium kits. They have the extract in 2 separate bags and the hops in pellet form in different number of sachets depending on the kit. I've read lots of books and watched pretty much every vid on you tube to see if I'm doing anything wrong.

Everyones talking about "boils" and "Scortching" during the boils but these kits only ask to add the extract then a litre of hot water from the kettle then top up with cold water to the 25 litre mark on the fermenting bucket. Theres no mention of boiling in the instructions. God have I been dull all this time and not done a major part of the brewing process with these kits???.

My Heater is a tropical fish tank heater I bought online at the shop here. Its dangled into the beer in the fermenter and the thermostat picks up any drop in temp and kicks in and switches off as needed so I don't think its measuring the outside temp. The stick on thermometer outside the bucket reads 16/17c even throughout the fermentation as I brew in my garden shed in the winter months so I know its never going to get higher than 16c outside to raise the temp of the liquid in the bucket and the heater keeps it at a constant temp.

I added the final batch of hops to my whole grain brew last night as per instructions and the smell that came out of the demijohn when I pulled the bung out was lush and smelled like beer with no yeasty sweet smell I get with the extract kits.

I also use bottled water from Tescos that has a good PH balance as the tap water in london is rank ( coming from a Scotsman).

Time will tell I guess to see if theres any difference in this full grain batch to the other ones ive done from extract kits.

PLEASE tell me though if I'm supposed to boil the extract once the waters added! as I said before theres no mention of this in the instructions that could be what the problem is. In which case I'll feel like a right dumb ass!! :cross:

 

[malky1841]

The sort of kits I'm using I should clarify are the Woodfords Wherry type kits. 2 pouches or cans of extract a sachet of yeast and a bag of priming sugar ( although I tend to use spray malt instead). Basic stuff I know but I to have a 3 year old running about the house so its kind of difficult doing anything convoluted in the kitchen without him wanting to stick his hand or toy train in the wort!.

 

[malky1841]

I cant seem to find a PDF of the instructions but if you You tube Woodfords wherry you can see a number of blokes doing it in front of the camera. (finar).

Maybe as some folk said "its a crappy no boil kit and thats where the problem lies . Am definitly starting to think about doing all grain from now on depending on what this batch turns out like. If its got the same smell as before then I'll know I'm doing something wrong and maybe just buy beer from now on

 

[Brewernaut51]

I watched one of the Woodsford Wherry vids. It is a no boil kit with hopped malt extract. I'm not sure how those turn out. Basically you're adding a few liters of boiling water to the lme in the fermenter and topping off with cold tap water before pitching your yeast. A few ideas for potential off flavors popped into my head while watching it.

The cold tap water could have chlorine or chloramines in it if you're using a city supply. The chlorine can affect the yeast during fermentation and leave a funny flavor. Chlorine can be easily boiled off but chloramines are harder to get rid of. From what I understand Cambden tablets can get rid of chloramines but I don't have any experience there. If you don't want to deal with those you could get some distilled water from the grocery store to brew with.

If you're brewing in your garden shed are you running the water to your fermenter through a garden hose? Most garden hoses weren't meant for potable water and funny flavors can leech into the water from the hose. I've heard you can run the water a few minutes and it'll be fine but I've never trusted that. Try drawing water straight from the faucet instead.

The last thing was cleaning and sanitization. I assume you're cleaning the fermenter out really well in between brews but are you sanitizing it before brewing? Find a no rinse sanitizer like Star San or iodophor to use immediately before beginning to brew. The guy in the video didn't mention sanitization but it's a huge and important step. Even small infections can have a huge effect on the final brew. Don't forget to sanitize the dispensing container or bottles before moving the beer into those either.

You could get a turkey fryer to do boils in the shed. It'd be the next logical step. You brew in the shed for the same reason I brew in the garage, kids. My oldest son tossed a rubber duck into the pot once when he was two because I thought he could hang out with me in the garage one day. I have no idea if it affected the final product. It was a hefe and tasted fine anyway. It was a couple years before he was allowed to brew with Daddy again.

 

[malky1841]

Hi brewernaught

I only use bottled water and the mixing, sterlising ect is all done in the house and then the fermenter is moved to the shed.
its not the flavour I have a problem with as such but the smell. The beer itself is ok but I have to try and not sniff it when I'm drinking it as it spoils the overall taste experience.
Like I mentioned before some of these kits have hop sachets for dry hopping. The woodfords one was my first ever kit and I thought that was horrible but after 3 years and much refinement in my temps and sterilising from books and you tube videos over the years I thought I would eliminate the problem, But they all smell the same whatever brewery makes them or whatever style. It all has that kit smell of extract yeasty sweetness thats quite strong. Not the citrus hoppy smell you get from say an IPA.

 

[theseeker4]

I cant seem to find a PDF of the instructions but if you You tube Woodfords wherry you can see a number of blokes doing it in front of the camera. (finar).

Maybe as some folk said "its a crappy no boil kit and thats where the problem lies . Am definitly starting to think about doing all grain from now on depending on what this batch turns out like. If its got the same smell as before then I'll know I'm doing something wrong and maybe just buy beer from now on

Going all-grain is great, and doesn't have to entail a huge investment of money especially if you go BIAB. Check out the all-grain and BIAB forums here.

If you decide it is too big of a step right now, look for some kits that use un-hopped extract. I did two Brewer's Best extract kits before going to all grain BIAB, and they turned out decently. These kits require a boil, most include steeping grains for more depth/variety of flavor, and have hop pellets included for bittering, flavoring, and aroma. Something to check out before you call it quits on home brewing, even if your next batch isn't great yet.

I also suggest you buy John Palmer's book "How to Brew" (the purchased book is more comprehensive and updated than the online version). I read this book before I even bought any brewing equipment, and I avoided a lot of the confusion that is common when brewing for the first time. Good luck!

 

[Gavin C]

I think you may not be making all-grain beer. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Are these the kits you are using?

http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Woodfordes_Wherry_Beer_Kit.html#.VfwOqnh--T8

All-grain brewing, as the name implies only uses grains as a source of malt. You seem to be describing dry malt extract or liquid malt extract. These are not used in all grain brewing.

I would advise against placing a thermostat in the beer. Place in on the FV side insulated fromm the ambient temp. That way you can monitor beer temp accurately and not introduce a potentially microbe laden foreign body into the beer.

Don't concern yourself with pH of the bottled water from Tesco. Its mash pH that is of concern in all-grain brewing.

If you are using DME or LME distilled or reverse osmosis water is ideal as all the desirable minerals have been incorporated by the maltser. Don't get hung up on these minutia at this stage. You've got bigger fish to fry.

You can't sterilize anything without an autoclave or harsh chemicals like glutaraldehyde (not suitable or safe for home use). You can sanitize things very easily with Starsan.

Your aquarium heater sounds like a great idea for keeping the temps up in the cooler months. Typically low to mid 60's is great for most ales. (Exceptions exist of course)

Watching a lot of youtube videos is a double edged sword. There are an awful lot of nonsense videos out there with seemingly very experienced brewers doing the same wrong things for many years. You will learn how to distill out the nonsense.

If a videographer brewer starts talking about sterilizing, ph5.2 stabilizer, "spring" water or a host of other nonsense terms/methods you should call into question the brewer's level of knowledge of the basics.

Here is a fine example of how to brew all-grain beer.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge5ur5SuxLk&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

Here is another great one from one of the masters

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5J8S5nBdUc[/ame]

 

[Kobie]

I agree with theseeker and others. BIAB is so easy and requires so little additional equipment that I personally don't see the point in doing extract. My first brew was extract and it turned out fine, but just that - fine. My first BIAB results blerw it away, so I've never looked back.

 

[Brewernaut51]

Hi brewernaught

I only use bottled water and the mixing, sterlising ect is all done in the house and then the fermenter is moved to the shed.
its not the flavour I have a problem with as such but the smell. The beer itself is ok but I have to try and not sniff it when I'm drinking it as it spoils the overall taste experience.
Like I mentioned before some of these kits have hop sachets for dry hopping. The woodfords one was my first ever kit and I thought that was horrible but after 3 years and much refinement in my temps and sterilising from books and you tube videos over the years I thought I would eliminate the problem, But they all smell the same whatever brewery makes them or whatever style. It all has that kit smell of extract yeasty sweetness thats quite strong. Not the citrus hoppy smell you get from say an IPA.

You're brewing in the cold weather months right? Try cold crashing by shutting off the heater the day before bottling/kegging. That'll help settle out more of the yeast and could help remove some of that yeasty flavor.

Dry hopping can add a nice fresh hop aroma but the final boil additions are what adds the real flavor. There's a possibility some of that is lost in the no boil kits. It really could just be time to get a turkey fryer and pot to do your own boils with unhopped extract or go all grain.

I'd suggest getting a 7.5gal or larger pot so you can do full boils and it helps make it easier to go all grain later. I started with a 5gal pot and had to upgrade when I switched to all grain. I still use the 5gal pot a lot though so it wasn't a terrible investment.

Basically you just buy equipment piecemeal. You've got the fermenter and bottles or keg. Next get a pot and do stove top partial boils or BIABs. Then later get an outdoor burner to do boils in the shed. Eventually you might want to build a mash tun (I made mine out of a Coleman cooler) if you want to move away from BIAB. Almost every homebrewer kind of progresses that way, buying a little equipment here and there to upgrade brew processes.

 

[kombat]

If a videographer brewer starts talking about sterilizing, ph5.2 stabilizer, "spring" water or a host of other nonsense terms/methods

Hey, what's wrong with spring water?

I admit to occasionally buying a couple jugs of spring water for my lighter beers, rather than hoping the Campden tablet did its job. I like the clean, non-chlorinated base that spring water provides, without having to worry about adding in a bunch of minerals (as in distilled or RO water).