Taste difference between extract and whole grain

[malky1841]

Hi Homercidal ( Lol that feels weird typing that!) And everyone else. Thanks for responding.

All the kits I've brewed in the past 3 years have been premium kits. They have the extract in 2 separate bags and the hops in pellet form in different number of sachets depending on the kit. I've read lots of books and watched pretty much every vid on you tube to see if I'm doing anything wrong.

Everyones talking about "boils" and "Scortching" during the boils but these kits only ask to add the extract then a litre of hot water from the kettle then top up with cold water to the 25 litre mark on the fermenting bucket. Theres no mention of boiling in the instructions. God have I been dull all this time and not done a major part of the brewing process with these kits???.

My Heater is a tropical fish tank heater I bought online at the shop here. Its dangled into the beer in the fermenter and the thermostat picks up any drop in temp and kicks in and switches off as needed so I don't think its measuring the outside temp. The stick on thermometer outside the bucket reads 16/17c even throughout the fermentation as I brew in my garden shed in the winter months so I know its never going to get higher than 16c outside to raise the temp of the liquid in the bucket and the heater keeps it at a constant temp.

I added the final batch of hops to my whole grain brew last night as per instructions and the smell that came out of the demijohn when I pulled the bung out was lush and smelled like beer with no yeasty sweet smell I get with the extract kits.

I also use bottled water from Tescos that has a good PH balance as the tap water in london is rank ( coming from a Scotsman).

Time will tell I guess to see if theres any difference in this full grain batch to the other ones ive done from extract kits.

PLEASE tell me though if I'm supposed to boil the extract once the waters added! as I said before theres no mention of this in the instructions that could be what the problem is. In which case I'll feel like a right dumb ass!! :cross:

 

[malky1841]

The sort of kits I'm using I should clarify are the Woodfords Wherry type kits. 2 pouches or cans of extract a sachet of yeast and a bag of priming sugar ( although I tend to use spray malt instead). Basic stuff I know but I to have a 3 year old running about the house so its kind of difficult doing anything convoluted in the kitchen without him wanting to stick his hand or toy train in the wort!.

 

[malky1841]

I cant seem to find a PDF of the instructions but if you You tube Woodfords wherry you can see a number of blokes doing it in front of the camera. (finar).

Maybe as some folk said "its a crappy no boil kit and thats where the problem lies . Am definitly starting to think about doing all grain from now on depending on what this batch turns out like. If its got the same smell as before then I'll know I'm doing something wrong and maybe just buy beer from now on

 

[Brewernaut51]

I watched one of the Woodsford Wherry vids. It is a no boil kit with hopped malt extract. I'm not sure how those turn out. Basically you're adding a few liters of boiling water to the lme in the fermenter and topping off with cold tap water before pitching your yeast. A few ideas for potential off flavors popped into my head while watching it.

The cold tap water could have chlorine or chloramines in it if you're using a city supply. The chlorine can affect the yeast during fermentation and leave a funny flavor. Chlorine can be easily boiled off but chloramines are harder to get rid of. From what I understand Cambden tablets can get rid of chloramines but I don't have any experience there. If you don't want to deal with those you could get some distilled water from the grocery store to brew with.

If you're brewing in your garden shed are you running the water to your fermenter through a garden hose? Most garden hoses weren't meant for potable water and funny flavors can leech into the water from the hose. I've heard you can run the water a few minutes and it'll be fine but I've never trusted that. Try drawing water straight from the faucet instead.

The last thing was cleaning and sanitization. I assume you're cleaning the fermenter out really well in between brews but are you sanitizing it before brewing? Find a no rinse sanitizer like Star San or iodophor to use immediately before beginning to brew. The guy in the video didn't mention sanitization but it's a huge and important step. Even small infections can have a huge effect on the final brew. Don't forget to sanitize the dispensing container or bottles before moving the beer into those either.

You could get a turkey fryer to do boils in the shed. It'd be the next logical step. You brew in the shed for the same reason I brew in the garage, kids. My oldest son tossed a rubber duck into the pot once when he was two because I thought he could hang out with me in the garage one day. I have no idea if it affected the final product. It was a hefe and tasted fine anyway. It was a couple years before he was allowed to brew with Daddy again.

 

[malky1841]

Hi brewernaught

I only use bottled water and the mixing, sterlising ect is all done in the house and then the fermenter is moved to the shed.
its not the flavour I have a problem with as such but the smell. The beer itself is ok but I have to try and not sniff it when I'm drinking it as it spoils the overall taste experience.
Like I mentioned before some of these kits have hop sachets for dry hopping. The woodfords one was my first ever kit and I thought that was horrible but after 3 years and much refinement in my temps and sterilising from books and you tube videos over the years I thought I would eliminate the problem, But they all smell the same whatever brewery makes them or whatever style. It all has that kit smell of extract yeasty sweetness thats quite strong. Not the citrus hoppy smell you get from say an IPA.

 

[theseeker4]

I cant seem to find a PDF of the instructions but if you You tube Woodfords wherry you can see a number of blokes doing it in front of the camera. (finar).

Maybe as some folk said "its a crappy no boil kit and thats where the problem lies . Am definitly starting to think about doing all grain from now on depending on what this batch turns out like. If its got the same smell as before then I'll know I'm doing something wrong and maybe just buy beer from now on

Going all-grain is great, and doesn't have to entail a huge investment of money especially if you go BIAB. Check out the all-grain and BIAB forums here.

If you decide it is too big of a step right now, look for some kits that use un-hopped extract. I did two Brewer's Best extract kits before going to all grain BIAB, and they turned out decently. These kits require a boil, most include steeping grains for more depth/variety of flavor, and have hop pellets included for bittering, flavoring, and aroma. Something to check out before you call it quits on home brewing, even if your next batch isn't great yet.

I also suggest you buy John Palmer's book "How to Brew" (the purchased book is more comprehensive and updated than the online version). I read this book before I even bought any brewing equipment, and I avoided a lot of the confusion that is common when brewing for the first time. Good luck!

 

[Gavin C]

I think you may not be making all-grain beer. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Are these the kits you are using?

http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Woodfordes_Wherry_Beer_Kit.html#.VfwOqnh--T8

All-grain brewing, as the name implies only uses grains as a source of malt. You seem to be describing dry malt extract or liquid malt extract. These are not used in all grain brewing.

I would advise against placing a thermostat in the beer. Place in on the FV side insulated fromm the ambient temp. That way you can monitor beer temp accurately and not introduce a potentially microbe laden foreign body into the beer.

Don't concern yourself with pH of the bottled water from Tesco. Its mash pH that is of concern in all-grain brewing.

If you are using DME or LME distilled or reverse osmosis water is ideal as all the desirable minerals have been incorporated by the maltser. Don't get hung up on these minutia at this stage. You've got bigger fish to fry.

You can't sterilize anything without an autoclave or harsh chemicals like glutaraldehyde (not suitable or safe for home use). You can sanitize things very easily with Starsan.

Your aquarium heater sounds like a great idea for keeping the temps up in the cooler months. Typically low to mid 60's is great for most ales. (Exceptions exist of course)

Watching a lot of youtube videos is a double edged sword. There are an awful lot of nonsense videos out there with seemingly very experienced brewers doing the same wrong things for many years. You will learn how to distill out the nonsense.

If a videographer brewer starts talking about sterilizing, ph5.2 stabilizer, "spring" water or a host of other nonsense terms/methods you should call into question the brewer's level of knowledge of the basics.

Here is a fine example of how to brew all-grain beer.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge5ur5SuxLk&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

Here is another great one from one of the masters

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5J8S5nBdUc[/ame]

 

[Kobie]

I agree with theseeker and others. BIAB is so easy and requires so little additional equipment that I personally don't see the point in doing extract. My first brew was extract and it turned out fine, but just that - fine. My first BIAB results blerw it away, so I've never looked back.

 

[Brewernaut51]

Hi brewernaught

I only use bottled water and the mixing, sterlising ect is all done in the house and then the fermenter is moved to the shed.
its not the flavour I have a problem with as such but the smell. The beer itself is ok but I have to try and not sniff it when I'm drinking it as it spoils the overall taste experience.
Like I mentioned before some of these kits have hop sachets for dry hopping. The woodfords one was my first ever kit and I thought that was horrible but after 3 years and much refinement in my temps and sterilising from books and you tube videos over the years I thought I would eliminate the problem, But they all smell the same whatever brewery makes them or whatever style. It all has that kit smell of extract yeasty sweetness thats quite strong. Not the citrus hoppy smell you get from say an IPA.

You're brewing in the cold weather months right? Try cold crashing by shutting off the heater the day before bottling/kegging. That'll help settle out more of the yeast and could help remove some of that yeasty flavor.

Dry hopping can add a nice fresh hop aroma but the final boil additions are what adds the real flavor. There's a possibility some of that is lost in the no boil kits. It really could just be time to get a turkey fryer and pot to do your own boils with unhopped extract or go all grain.

I'd suggest getting a 7.5gal or larger pot so you can do full boils and it helps make it easier to go all grain later. I started with a 5gal pot and had to upgrade when I switched to all grain. I still use the 5gal pot a lot though so it wasn't a terrible investment.

Basically you just buy equipment piecemeal. You've got the fermenter and bottles or keg. Next get a pot and do stove top partial boils or BIABs. Then later get an outdoor burner to do boils in the shed. Eventually you might want to build a mash tun (I made mine out of a Coleman cooler) if you want to move away from BIAB. Almost every homebrewer kind of progresses that way, buying a little equipment here and there to upgrade brew processes.

 

[kombat]

If a videographer brewer starts talking about sterilizing, ph5.2 stabilizer, "spring" water or a host of other nonsense terms/methods

Hey, what's wrong with spring water?

I admit to occasionally buying a couple jugs of spring water for my lighter beers, rather than hoping the Campden tablet did its job. I like the clean, non-chlorinated base that spring water provides, without having to worry about adding in a bunch of minerals (as in distilled or RO water).

 

[Gavin C]

Hey, what's wrong with spring water?

I admit to occasionally buying a couple jugs of spring water for my lighter beers, rather than hoping the Campden tablet did its job. I like the clean, non-chlorinated base that spring water provides, without having to worry about adding in a bunch of minerals (as in distilled or RO water).

Its a meaningless term. Some folks use it to mean bottled water from Walmart which is probably RO from a municipal source.

Others use it to mean I buy x gallons of y brand of water.

What's its mineral content?
Is it on the bottle?
Is it suited to brewing?
Is it suited to that style of beer?

If your going to invest and spend orders of magnitude more money on store bought water over tap water you probably want to know its mineral content precisely.

Are Perrier, Fugi, Avian spring waters? Are they suited to brewing? Yes to the former and I have no idea to the latter, never looked at the minerals.

It is simply a meaningless term that requires explanation regarding the mineral content and why this is suitable for brewing.

RO water is a simple term, you know what your getting
Distilled water the same. "It does exactly what it says on the tin".
Spring water, no clue what someone means. It's as specific as tap water

 

[stpug]

Its a meaningless term. Some folks use it to mean bottled water from Walmart which is probably RO from a municipal source.

Others use it to mean I buy x gallons of y brand of water.

What's its mineral content?
Is it on the bottle?
Is it suited to brewing?
Is it suited to that style of beer?

If your going to invest and spend orders of magnitude more money on store bought water over tap water you probably want to know its mineral content precisely.

Are Perrier, Fugi, Avian spring waters? Are they suited to brewing? Yes to the former and I have no idea to the latter, never looked at the minerals.

It is simply a meaningless term that requires explanation regarding the mineral content and why this is suitable for brewing.

RO water is a simple term, you know what your getting
Distilled water the same. "It does exactly what it says on the tin".
Spring water, no clue what someone means. It's as specific as tap water

No, no, no... Gavin, you have it all wrong.

Spring Water = water from a spring. And we all know that if the water comes from a spring then it's the best the earth can offer. End of subject.... or is it.

I have a public spring not far from my house. Here are some specs in ppm:
290+ alkalinity
120+ calcium
180+ chloride
160+ sulfate
50+ magnesium
with a splash of chloroform and perchlorate to boot.

I can't figure out why no one likes my beer

 

[Gavin C]

No, no, no... Gavin, you have it all wrong.

Spring Water = water from a spring. And we all know that if the water comes from a spring then it's the best the earth can offer. End of subject.... or is it.

I have a public spring not far from my house. Here are some specs in ppm:
290+ alkalinity
120+ calcium
180+ chloride
160+ sulfate
50+ magnesium
with a splash of chloroform and perchlorate to boot.

I can't figure out why no one likes my beer

Can you ship to 75039. 8 gallons please.

 

[khillian]

I think there is a difference in simple beers where base malts count. Switched to partial BIAB recently and the difference is noticeable. Especially in blonds, pilsners, and pale ales. Being able to use different base malts really adds complexity to these beers. If you have lots of steeping grains (crystal/roasted) with extract I think the difference is less noticeable.

I have an 8 gallon pot, use 5 gallon paint strainer bags (buy in bulk, throw them out with the grain, easy clean up). Brewing in a one bedroom apartment in SF, thank god for my gas stove in the kitchen. I can all grain beers with 8 pounds of grain to around 1.042 for a 6 gallon batch, if it's a higher gravity I use DME/Sugar to get the gravity up. Since switching from steeping/extract my simple hoppy pale ales now have malt flavor and aroma, blending base malts is fun. In beers like English Milds you have greater control of your final gravity which with extract your locked into the manufacturers mash.

But as said before, sanitation, yeast handling, and temp control are far more important. Everyone needs to nail those pieces of the process down before the effects of partial/all grain would make a significant difference.

 

[wsmith1625]

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter which method makes better beer. What matters is that you're making beer. Awesome right!

I'm sure both methods make good beer, but whichever method you choose, better ingredient and better technique are going to produce better beer. Some brewers do not have the time or money to invest in all grain brewing, so I would not discourage extract brewing to anyone.

I dragged my feet for a long time before starting to brew because I was dead set on going all grain. Finally while on a brewery tour, I was taking with the master brewer/owner and mentioned to him that I wanted to start brewing my own beers and just didn't have the money to get all the equipment I needed. He told me that it's pretty cheap to do extract brews and he made some really solid beer back in his extract days. I took his advice and now brew using extract. My goal is to perfect my technique and eventually give all grain a try.

Good topic though! Thanks!

 

[Brewernaut51]

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter which method makes better beer. What matters is that you're making beer. Awesome right!

I'm sure both methods make good beer, but whichever method you choose, better ingredient and better technique are going to produce better beer. Some brewers do not have the time or money to invest in all grain brewing, so I would not discourage extract brewing to anyone.

I dragged my feet for a long time before starting to brew because I was dead set on going all grain. Finally while on a brewery tour, I was taking with the master brewer/owner and mentioned to him that I wanted to start brewing my own beers and just didn't have the money to get all the equipment I needed. He told me that it's pretty cheap to do extract brews and he made some really solid beer back in his extract days. I took his advice and now brew using extract. My goal is to perfect my technique and eventually give all grain a try.

Good topic though! Thanks!

That's the way I feel too. A lot of people have made great beers with extract. For me it's all about time. Extracts shave 1 1/2 to 2 hours off my brew days. They're also a good way to learn and buy equipment over time rather than all at once.

 

[mcspanner]

OP, I see you're in the UK. When you go into most brew stores here and ask about extract brewing, most of the time you'll be shown a selection of cans similar to the Wherry kit or the brewferm Belgian selections. Very few stores that I've visited do extract recipe kits requiring full or partial boils as discussed here. One notable exception is BrewUk in Salisbury, who have a section of recipe kits using DME and hops. These need a little more time and equipment to brew but the results are in a different league to the type of kits you have been using and you're much more involved in making the beer.

I often use pizza as an analogy for these kits, what you're doing is like buying a frozen pizza and sticking it in the oven. You still need to get the temp right in the oven and cook it for the right length of time, but is it really making the pizza?

Next step up is to buy a ready made pizza base, put your own tomato sauce and toppings on it, then cook at the right temp and time - you've made you're own pizza to your own tastes using pre-made components. Here the base is the extract and the sauce and toppings are the hops and steeping grains etc.

Finally you have a pizza that you've crafted from scratch; mixing, kneading and proving the dough, blending fresh tomatoes and herbs for the sauce etc then baking it. This might actually be the best pizza you've ever tasted....maybe. This is all-grain brewing.

Is the frozen pizza awful? Of course not- it's pizza ( hmmmm pizza). Assuming you get the oven temps and times right of course. Not everyone has the time or equipment to make beer from scratch using all grain techniques, and not everyone wants to- find what's right for you and understand the pros and cons of each technique.

 

[malky1841]

Wow thanks for all the advice folks.

I guess its a divided subject I'm going to do a quick gravity test on my first wholegrain IPA tonight. Its been brewing 7 days now and the airlocks stopped bubbling so I'll do one tonight and another in a couple of days to see if its still dropping. Really looking forward to seeing the difference in this and the (NO boil) basic kits i've been brewing these past few years.

Some asked the difference between bottled and tap water. London water is horrible in my opinion so I use a Tesco's brand Scottish spring water that someone who has many more years brewing experience than me said had good PH balance and mineral content for most ales so I've stuck with that.

The wife isnt to impressed by all the clutter accumulated by all this brewing malarky. She said quote "Bloody hell Mal! the kitchen looks like Walter Whites lab!"

 

[malky1841]

I think you may not be making all-grain beer. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Are these the kits you are using?



Yes Gavin thats the sort of Kits I'm brewing.

I know they're not whole grain kits that was my reason for asking. My problem was with these kits (no boil) liquid extract was that once finished the beer looks and tastes different but they all smelled the same.

I did my first whole grain brew last sunday Boil, strain sparge ect and the smell was completely different in the brew when I pitched the yeast compared to the kits at the same stage of the process. I was just wondering if that was just me or if it was normal to have the kit home brew smell. Hard to describe, kind of sweet yeasty smell but the same smell regarding if its a summer ale IPA or a bitter and also regardless of manufacture.

I'll have a look at these videos Cheers for taking the time to post them, much appreciated

 

[malky1841]

Lol that first video!. Very informative but the guy in it, a natural presenter he definitely is not !

 

[Brewernaut51]

The wife isnt to impressed by all the clutter accumulated by all this brewing malarky. She said quote "Bloody hell Mal! the kitchen looks like Walter Whites lab!"

Mine hated the smell of boiling hops when I was doing it in the kitchen so I got kicked out to the garage. Its not heated so it can be a bit nippy out there in a Michigan January. Gets better once the boil is going. Of course then I have to have a door open so I don't kill myself with CO poisoning so it never really gets warm.

 

[Gavin C]

Lol that first video!. Very informative but the guy in it, a natural presenter he definitely is not !

He's a member of HBT after someone discovered this great video. He was interviewed by one of the moderators ( @passedpawn ) and the article appeared on the front page. Tremendous stuff.

@Mongster

He has another freaking brilliant one. "Brewing a hillbilly beer". You gotta watch it. Can't get the link at the moment. Youtube blocked at work.

 

[frettfreak]

Some asked the difference between bottled and tap water. London water is horrible in my opinion so I use a Tesco's brand Scottish spring water that someone who has many more years brewing experience than me said had good PH balance and mineral content for most ales so I've stuck with that.

The grain bill has way more to do with you wort composition and pH that the water you use. What "minerals" and in what concentration they are in in the mineral water could also be a huge factor. The problem is, you have no idea what minerals they are adding and certain ones make a huge difference in what the grains will do to the pH of your wort.

Darker malts will have more of an affect on you pH than lighter Malts. But if your WORT (not water) pH is way off, (ideal range will be between 5.1 and 5.4 depending on the desired results) your gonna get off flavors and tannins. There is a sticky in the water forum that breaks it down way better and gives you a super easy way to treat your water (RO water) which would at least give you a KNOWN starting place.

But for what it's worth... London tap water has made some pretty iconic and amazing beer... You could just get a carbon filter, filter your water and see what that gives you. 🍻

Keep us posted on your tasting!

 

[Gavin C]

After living in London for 6 months many years ago I would completely identify with the OP's concerns on his water's flavor.

The old joke about all of London's water being filtered through 6 sets of kydneys comes to mind.

I would not disaggree that there are some great beers coming from London. It's such a vast geographical area though that water will vary greatly from borough to borough.

 

[malky1841]

Looking at the state of my taps and the shower window at the end of each week I have come to the conclusion its probably better drinking from the water butt in the garden. I use a brita filter for our tea coffee ect but thats to much for one wee filter to handle one batch of beer. I agree though there are some great beers in London. My local craft brewery " The Brockley brewery" does a stunning red ale thats one of my favourites apart from Jail ale which is a west country beer. If you haven't tried it then I urgently suggest you get your taste buds round that cheeky little number. I unfortunately cant seem to get it in my part of London.

I'll let you know tomorrow what the ol hydrometer sample tastes like on my mosaic IPA.

 

[malky1841]

So I did a gravity reading last night and its 5.3% which is pretty much what it says in the box. I had a cheeky taste of the sample and its worlds apart from what I was getting before!. Smells of floral citrus and a nice clean refreshing taste with peachy hints a nice bitter note at the end. LURVLEY!. If this is what I'm in for after 2 weeks plus in the bottle then I'm sold!.

So I had a look at the partial mash kits as I don't have the equipment to brew a whole 5 gallon batch in my wee London flat and I can pretty much use what I have already with these. Can anyone recommend a link to a good partial mash kit that I can get in the UK?. I did a search but they all seem to be state side.

Bitters, golden ales, red ales, IPA's something of that description?.

 

[mcspanner]

So I did a gravity reading last night and its 5.3% which is pretty much what it says in the box. I had a cheeky taste of the sample and its worlds apart from what I was getting before!. Smells of floral citrus and a nice clean refreshing taste with peachy hints a nice bitter note at the end. LURVLEY!. If this is what I'm in for after 2 weeks plus in the bottle then I'm sold!.

So I had a look at the partial mash kits as I don't have the equipment to brew a whole 5 gallon batch in my wee London flat and I can pretty much use what I have already with these. Can anyone recommend a link to a good partial mash kit that I can get in the UK?. I did a search but they all seem to be state side.

Bitters, golden ales, red ales, IPA's something of that description?.

If you want a true partial mash you might struggle to source that here, the supplier I mentioned in my last post do lots of kits with steeping grains which are similar but not a full PM ( the differences are explained in this article http://byo.com/hops/item/1414-steeping-vs-partial-mashing ). If you look at the recipe database here you can find lots of Partial mash recipes then just order the ingredients you need, freeing you from being limited to kits.

 

[malky1841]

If you want a true partial mash you might struggle to source that here, the supplier I mentioned in my last post do lots of kits with steeping grains which are similar but not a full PM ( the differences are explained in this article http://byo.com/hops/item/1414-steeping-vs-partial-mashing ). If you look at the recipe database here you can find lots of Partial mash recipes then just order the ingredients you need, freeing you from being limited to kits.

Cheers for that. I saw that website yesterday and I'm thinking of trying the Tribute recipe pack.

 

[Gavin C]

Just an idea. I don't want to sound like I'm trying to convert you or anything.

But how about a 2.5 gallon (~10L) all-grain batch using BIAB

If you have a 4-5 gallon pot and a half decent kitchen stove, you'll need to buy a couple of paint-strainer bags. ~$5 here. Can be much more in the UK. That's all.

This will open a whole new range of options to you and your apartment brewery.

Anyway. Just a thought.

 

[mcspanner]

One of my friends has made the Landlord recipe, with great results. I got bought a couple of their all grain clone recipes as gifts ( I usually create my own recipes) and they turned out well. The Summer Lightning clone was spot on.