Taras Boulba Clone

[mikeroesoft]

Really? I’ve never had really fresh Orval so I don’t know it that well without Brett but I’ve had Farmers Daughter from the Alchemist which at least for a few batches used Orval yeast and it was pretty spicey/phenolic.

Wyeast 1762 is supposedly Rochefort. According to the yeast genome tree (if it’s the same as 540) is an English yeast. I’ve only used it once (for something else) but it’s a very clean “Belgian” yeast. White Labs lists 540 as POF+ which is odd considering where it’s genetics fall.

I find 510 the least spicy/phenolic of all the Belgian yeast I’ve tried. I haven’t had Farmers Daughter but I’m thinking the the spicy/phenolic can be encouraged/subdued but frost and fermentation profile. A friend of mine just pointed me to an Imperial Yeast Lab culture of this strain..I think it’s called Precious?

 

[dirty_martini]

I find 510 the least spicy/phenolic of all the Belgian yeast I’ve tried. I haven’t had Farmers Daughter but I’m thinking the the spicy/phenolic can be encouraged/subdued but frost and fermentation profile. A friend of mine just pointed me to an Imperial Yeast Lab culture of this strain..I think it’s called Precious?

I’m planning a beer inspired by taras boulba and westy blonde and have probably looked at this thread a dozen times over the years. Nice to see it revived. I’m actually going to use wyeasts Belgian Wheat. Used to be my favorite belgian strain (supposedly sourced from de dolle) but it was discontinued years ago. This year I saw its back as a seasonal so I’m using it for this beer. It has minimal phenolics, and while it has some plum, bubblegum, and apple like esters, they are much more subdued than other belgian strains and tend to balance with malt and hops nicely. I have no idea why they (and omega) call it belgian wheat. Definitely not a witbier yeast and would probably sell better if given a better name.

 

[bierhaus15]

I isolated the yeast from a bottle of Taras and there are two strains in the bottle; a smooth colony (likely lager used for bottling) and an irregular (main strain) that produces mild POF+ character with a distinct lemony-Belgian aroma. Overall character is rather clean and moderately dry. I would not be surprised if it was the Palm yeast. The Belgian Wheat ale seems like it would be perfect for this type of beer.

 

[Mer-man]

I just had this fresh on tap here in town and was blown away. Easily my favorite pale ale.

I guess I will have to start brewing trials! WLP400 or WLP510 to start with . . .

 

[skibb]

Yeah its just a super solid and refreshing beer. The professor I was working with to do sequencing/identification has funding frozen but at this point I'm about to shell out the $100 to do it myself.

 

[mikeroesoft]

I just had this fresh on tap here in town and was blown away. Easily my favorite pale ale.

I guess I will have to start brewing trials! WLP400 or WLP510 to start with . . .

Did you try the 510?

 

[couchsending]

I isolated the yeast from a bottle of Taras and there are two strains in the bottle; a smooth colony (likely lager used for bottling) and an irregular (main strain) that produces mild POF+ character with a distinct lemony-Belgian aroma. Overall character is rather clean and moderately dry. I would not be surprised if it was the Palm yeast. The Belgian Wheat ale seems like it would be perfect for this type of beer.

Just opened my first Palm and it does seem like there are some similarities to the aromas I get from De La Senne beers. Very very light phenolics.

Is the Palm yeast commercially available in any form? Or is there anything close?

 

[dirty_martini]

I did my version. Not a clone, but inspired by the beer. Something hoppy and crisp with the belgian backbone. Almost like taras Boulba met fresh westy 6.

1.044
1.008
4.7%
38-40IBUs
Malts: Pils, Pale, Spelt
5% Cane sugar
Hops: sterling, mt hops, enigma
Yeast: wyeast 3942 Belgian Wheat (de dolle)

I was quite happy with it. Kept the fermentation relatively cool for a Belgian. Staying around 68 until the very end to let it finish out at 72 to ensure complete attenuation. Drinks like a pilsner with a bit more citrus and fruity hop character, with the Belgian yeast being a nice supporting flavor with some light bread, apple, and apricot esters. No clove or peppery spice to be found which I’m very happy about. I kinda think this yeast could be interesting in a NEIPA with its fruitiness but lack of phenolics.

 

[DrJacoby]

The FG is 1.004 (confirmed with Easydens). The yeast is definitely not 510, way too phenolic. I think it's a neutral yeast like 515. My sense is the hops are contributing most of the flavour, with the lightness of the body and high carbonation giving it the necessary spritz. My latest clone attempt used saaz and tettnang and was very close.

 

[madscientist451]

I just re-checked the candi syrup page and a clone is in their 2020 pipeline:

http://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

 

[couchsending]

I did my version. Not a clone, but inspired by the beer. Something hoppy and crisp with the belgian backbone. Almost like taras Boulba met fresh westy 6.

1.044
1.008
4.7%
38-40IBUs
Malts: Pils, Pale, Spelt
5% Cane sugar
Hops: sterling, mt hops, enigma
Yeast: wyeast 3942 Belgian Wheat (de dolle)

I was quite happy with it. Kept the fermentation relatively cool for a Belgian. Staying around 68 until the very end to let it finish out at 72 to ensure complete attenuation. Drinks like a pilsner with a bit more citrus and fruity hop character, with the Belgian yeast being a nice supporting flavor with some light bread, apple, and apricot esters. No clove or peppery spice to be found which I’m very happy about. I kinda think this yeast could be interesting in a NEIPA with its fruitiness but lack of phenolics.

View attachment 711719

Just ordered the Omega version of this yeast. Very excited to try it this week. I really want to create this light, dry, bitter, aromatic beer with a bit more yeast character but minimal phenolics. Crossing my fingers this yeast could be the one.

 

[dirty_martini]

Just ordered the Omega version of this yeast. Very excited to try it this week. I really want to create this light, dry, bitter, aromatic beer with a bit more yeast character but minimal phenolics. Crossing my fingers this yeast could be the one.

it’s my favorite belgian yeast. I think you’ll be happy about the character you get

 

[Early8]

I am digging this one up again because I had the pleasure of a few bottles a couple of months ago. Taras Boulba is an unusual treat in the USA. Chuck at Stockertown Beverages suggested it when I was there to pickup some Bluebird, and it really impressed me.

I am specifically trying to settle down on a recipe. I see Candisyrup.com hasn't posted one yet. I am going to split a batch and use two different yeasts and was hoping to see some updates on this thread. Would any of you have any new thoughts to add? I think I have a found some vintage 3942 to try; is there a direct alternative to 3942? I am curious about Imperial B53 Precious as a second variety to try if I could find some, but I don't see it locally.

 

[couchsending]

This is a tough beer to recreate. Noble hops are especially trashy on the homebrew scale, nothing like what Yvan is working with. I still get such low phenols in this beer. Granted I’ve only had it on tap twice and every bottle I can find is usually old as f*uck so I have no idea what it actually tastes like fresh. I’ve tried replicating it a few times with 3942 and the phenols were way too strong.

The conditioning period of this beer and bottle/keg refermentation are definitely critical as well

@bierhaus15 did you ever brew anything with the isolate?

 

[Early8]

Thanks for the reply, and understood. Did you reach a conclusion regarding 1762 and the English connection? I can't get a feel for what you all concluded regarding a yeast strain to try.

 

[bierhaus15]

@bierhaus15 did you ever brew anything with the isolate?

I brewed two beers with it, both in the style of Taras, but not as hop forward. Yeast behaved well, relatively high attenuation and flocculation with a clean, citrus-spice flavor that was neither overly fruity or phenolic. Hard to suggest a comparable yeast; it is certainly cleaner than most Belgian yeasts available to home brewers, but more characterful than the POF+ UK ones as well. Again, I'm thinking something in the same vein as Palm.

 

[mikeroesoft]

Well looks like the Candisyrup folks finally added their Taras Boulba recipe to their page.

https://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/taras_boulba_2022_-_002.pdf

 

[Early8]

I have been waiting for that; thanks for the heads up. I have fermented my version a few times with 3726 Farmhouse Ale yeast. I held it on the cool side and the results were tasty, although not quite a match based on my recollection. I am really enjoying a WLP510 version at the moment.

 

[mikeroesoft]

I have been waiting for that; thanks for the heads up. I have fermented my version a few times with 3726 Farmhouse Ale yeast. I held it on the cool side and the results were tasty, although not quite a match based on my recollection. I am really enjoying a WLP510 version at the moment.

Yeah, I’d been waiting to see it posted for a while as well. Anyway, the recipe looks nice but it’s definitely a little different than what I would have expected. I realize that process and equipment have more impact on a beer than the recipe but the mash regime, grist and yeast choice aren’t consistent with the little info De Baets has given in interviews.

 

[Early8]

Yeah, I’d been waiting to see it posted for a while as well. Anyway, the recipe looks nice but it’s definitely a little different than what I would have expected. Anyway, I realize that process and equipment have more impact on a beer than the recipe but the mash regime, grist and yeast choice aren’t consistent with the little info De Baets has given in interviews.

I was thinking the same thing. I have been using almost 6% of each Munich and Wheat rather than a Candi sugar and carapils. I don't have Dingman's Carapils readily available, but it looks like maybe it has an SRM of 8? I am generally not bothered by color much, but I think it could use some. Regarding the yeast, I would love to know the origins of the original. I was drawn to 1762 originally, but I think it is not expressive enough.

 

[Shenanigans]

I'm going to give this a try with LalBrew Farmhouse which is not supposed to be very phenolic if you keep the temperature in check.
Also in the meantime Bisonbrew made a clone attempt:

https://bisonbrew.com/taras-boulba-... version has very,a hallmark of Taras Boulba.
He also makes a reference to this very thread
His attempt was quite different than the Candisyrup recipe.

All things considered I'm just going to do 95% Pils, 5% Munich or Vienna or maybe just 100% Continental pale Ale malt.
Skip the sugar and hop it up to about 50 IBUs with Saaz and Tettnang.
Still a few things to decide on

 

[Early8]

Thank you for sharing the bisonbrew report, it’s a solid reference. That said, I can’t Imagine getting in the zone with US05, but I should try it warm before saying that for sure. In that I haven’t had the real deal for some time, I have probably drifted off target, but I am enjoying my rendition on tap right now! And I do really enjoy it and it has earned a near permanent spot on my taps. WLP515 is what I imagine is the closest in commercial production, but I can not find it to try. I always split my batches, and lately have been just enjoying WLP510, with either Wyeast 3522 or 3726 Lately. as I said I have drifted off target, but I have been really enjoying my version.

I use a Belgian Pilsner with just under 6% Munich and just under 6% wheat malt. I am also going with a single infusion at about 152 that looses a degree or two over at least 60 minutes in my version of a BIAB arrangement. i should also add that I am keeping it lighter with an OG of about 1.035, which may help the hops show themselves more?

I absolutely love the style! And it is a great place to start all sorts of variation I think. I say dive in and have fun with it! I have also been somewhat surprised to find it a crowd pleaser.

I should also add that I have been fermenting at about 70F. Please post your experiences!

 

[Shenanigans]

Thank you for sharing the bisonbrew report, it’s a solid reference. That said, I can’t Imagine getting in the zone with US05, but I should try it warm before saying that for sure. In that I haven’t had the real deal for some time, I have probably drifted off target, but I am enjoying my rendition on tap right now! And I do really enjoy it and it has earned a near permanent spot on my taps. WLP515 is what I imagine is the closest in commercial production, but I can not find it to try. I always split my batches, and lately have been just enjoying WLP510, with either Wyeast 3522 or 3726 Lately. as I said I have drifted off target, but I have been really enjoying my version.

I use a Belgian Pilsner with just under 6% Munich and just under 6% wheat malt. I am also going with a single infusion at about 152 that looses a degree or two over at least 60 minutes in my version of a BIAB arrangement. i should also add that I am keeping it lighter with an OG of about 1.035, which may help the hops show themselves more?

I absolutely love the style! And it is a great place to start all sorts of variation I think. I say dive in and have fun with it! I have also been somewhat surprised to find it a crowd pleaser.

I should also add that I have been fermenting at about 70F. Please post your experiences!

Yes I won't be trying US-05 myself.
This is kind of a side project for me that will be more a Taras Boulba inspired beer rather than an exact clone.
So I'll run with what I have at the moment and if needed make tweaks based on the results.
I got a pack of LalBrew Farmhouse that's going out of date soon so I'll try that.
The fermentation profile and cleaner Belgian character should be a good fit.
Depending on the timing I might be able to do a temperature controlled fermentation if my kegerator or else ambient in my 18 oC basement.

Now that you mention wheat you might be right as I do remember the last bottle I had of this last Summer was quite cloudy so it could indeed have some wheat in there.
I'm not sure if there's any ingredients listed on the bottle that confirms this.

What hop schedule are you using?

 

[Early8]

I just opened my notes on my first attempt:
I noted that I might want to consider replacing the Munich with Vienna ( I have not tried Vienna in this recipe so far.)
Fermented at 68 for 4 days with a slow rise to 72 over three days.
OG 1.037
White Labs WLP510 FG 1.006. I noted this quite clean and enjoyable (I think the cool ferment really contained the phenolics but did not totally hide them).
Wyeast 1762 FG 1.005 I noted that this was cleaner and more subtle than the 510, also really nice. However, neither is an exact match. (as stated above in this thread)

Regarding hop schedule, I am gentle on hopping by comparison to most brewers:
Magnum for 21 IBU @60 mins
Saaz for 2.5 IBU @20 mins
Tettnang for 3.9 IBU @20 mins
Saaz. for 1.5 IBU. @10 mins
Tettnang for 2.3 IBU @10 mins
Saaz Dry hop for 4 days

So this version came in at 30ish IBUs, which may be a little light compared to the original?

The Lalbrew Farmhouse sounds interesting. I wonder if it is related to the Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse that I have been using lately?

​

​

 

[Northern_Brewer]

WLP515 is what I imagine is the closest in commercial production, but I can not find it to try.

WLP515 is an Urquell-ish lager yeast, S-23 is a close relative. As such it's not "Belgian" at all, but does reflect the diversity of yeasts that are actually used by Belgian brewers.

It's one of the more regular White Lab seasonals, it usually comes out in late summer.

 

[Shenanigans]

I just opened my notes on my first attempt:
I noted that I might want to consider replacing the Munich with Vienna ( I have not tried Vienna in this recipe so far.)
Fermented at 68 for 4 days with a slow rise to 72 over three days.
OG 1.037
White Labs WLP510 FG 1.006. I noted this quite clean and enjoyable (I think the cool ferment really contained the phenolics but did not totally hide them).
Wyeast 1762 FG 1.005 I noted that this was cleaner and more subtle than the 510, also really nice. However, neither is an exact match. (as stated above in this thread)

Regarding hop schedule, I am gentle on hopping by comparison to most brewers:
Magnum for 21 IBU @60 mins
Saaz for 2.5 IBU @20 mins
Tettnang for 3.9 IBU @20 mins
Saaz. for 1.5 IBU. @10 mins
Tettnang for 2.3 IBU @10 mins
Saaz Dry hop for 4 days

So this version came in at 30ish IBUs, which may be a little light compared to the original?

The Lalbrew Farmhouse sounds interesting. I wonder if it is related to the Wyeast 3726 Farmhouse that I have been using lately?

​

​

I'll probably do something similar but aim for 45 to 50 IBUs and bitter with Northern Brewer.
I'll also leave out the dry hop as I will be bottling it and want to reduce the chance of oxidation.
Maybe a wirlpool instead.

I was checking WY3726 and on their site it says

So it's not similar in that respect to Lalbrew Farmhouse as they advocate the advantage of using this yeast is that it has high attenuation without the STA1 gene.
The atenuation is not as high as some traditional Saison strains though but seem comparable to WY3726.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Given that 3726 has <80% attenuation in the Wyeast standard wort, I suspect that it is an example (which is quite common) of a yeast with a broken STA1 - enough of the gene that it tests positive on PCR but not functional. But with PCR being the way that breweries often test for STA1 presence, they need to be warned that it will be PCR-positive.

 

[Early8]

WLP515 is an Urquell-ish lager yeast, S-23 is a close relative. As such it's not "Belgian" at all, but does reflect the diversity of yeasts that are actually used by Belgian brewers.

It's one of the more regular White Lab seasonals, it usually comes out in late summer.

Interesting. With my limited knowledge of WLP515 I would not have guessed it was a lager yeast. White Labs shows a Temperature range that had me thinking it was an ale yeast. I was aware that it is seasonal, but haven’t seen it available through my usual suppliers in the short time I have been aware of it.

I'll probably do something similar but aim for 45 to 50 IBUs and bitter with Northern Brewer.
I'll also leave out the dry hop as I will be bottling it and want to reduce the chance of oxidation.
Maybe a wirlpool instead.

I was checking WY3726 and on their site it says

View attachment 813184

So it's not similar in that respect to Lalbrew Farmhouse as they advocate the advantage of using this yeast is that it has high attenuation without the STA1 gene.
The atenuation is not as high as some traditional Saison strains though but seem comparable to WY3726.
View attachment 813185

Makes sense given that you are bottling particularly. It looks like I should give that yeast a try.

 

[kylesobrien]

I don't think I've ever posted to this forum, but I saw this thread and felt compelled to share information I found a while back when I became ... somewhat obsessed with this beer. This is a lot longer than I intended to write, but I hope this is helpful to someone out there.

Good luck!

Beer parameters

The items immediately below are all translated from Getest en Geproefd, Deel 2 by Test Aankoop (ISBN 9789491778063), which I'm pretty sure is out of print. Someone on Hobbybrouwen.nl was kind enough to snap a photo of the TB page and share with me.

Colour: 9.8 EBC
Bitterness: 48 IBU (https://www.fattiunabirra.it/belgio/83-taras-boulba.html claims 54 IBU!)
Cloudiness (troebelheid): 7.84 EBC

Apparent extract (schijnbaar extract): 1.99g/100g, or 2º P, so 1.008
Actual extract (werkelijk extract): 4.03g/100g, or 4º P, so 1.016
Original gravity (oorspronkelijk extract): 12.65g/100g, or 12.5º P, so 1.050 (the Italian site above notes 12ºP, think this is more likely)

Hops

In terms of hops, I'm pretty sure it's a combination of Saaz and Challenger. The CSI recipe looks tasty, and while he's noted that a sizeable amount of the hops they use are German, de Baets also says that Harvey's Sussex Best Bitter is his dream beer. From what I've been able to gather, Harvey's uses Challenger in their best bitter. I have no idea where "De Lambikstoemper" gets his information, but FWIW he thinks it's Challenger too (Taras Boulba).

In the second interview linked below (link broken), de Baets states that they use Belgian, Czech, and British hops at the brewery.

To me, fresh TB has an a bright, almost lemony flavour. In the interview with Bill Covaleski from Victory Brewing in the Brewer's Apprentice, he notes

“We’ve learned a lot of what we liked and very little of what we disliked. Say, how Tettnanger hops at a certain point become minerally and metallic. Saaz at a certain threshold is lemony and bright.”​

I would love to know what that threshold is, and if that refers to kettle hops or dry hopping.

Malt

In the Walsh presentation, he claims that TB is brewed with 100% pilsner malt. I would be a bit surprised if this were the case, given the colour and appearance. I still think there's some malted wheat in there. But Vinnie Cilurzo (third link below in article list) writes:

"It’s such a simple beer—one malt, a couple of hops varieties, one yeast for fermentation, another for bottle fermentation."​

So it seems possible. I'm assuming Vinnie has actually talked with de Baets about the recipe, and I do think it's simpler than many of the clone attempts that are out there. The yeast is doing most of the heavy lifting, but I honestly have no clue which one he's using.

Yeast

I have no idea. For a while, I thought it might be the Duvel strain. Previously I wondered if it might be the Blaugies or Ardennes strains, but the latter tends to produce bright beers. Your guess is as good as mine.

Mash schedule

45-62-72-78°C (based on A visit to Brasserie de la Senne, which full of nice details); Derek Walsh suggested a single temperature infusion instead, but personally I don't think this likely.

Fermentation temp

Start at 21-22°C, rise to 26°C to encourage ester formation. Secondary fermentation at 23°C for 15 days. (same source as mash info)

Random links related to TB

https://farmhousebeerblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/16/yeast-brasserie-de-la-senne/https://www.brouwland.com/content/assets/docs/Brouwland Hip Hops final.pdf (link defunct, tried the Wayback Machine, but no dice -- was a great presentation by Derek Walsh with info about TB on slide 43)
https://beerandbrewing.com/pick-six-russian-river-brewings-vinnie-cilurzo/
Interviews with Yvan de Baets

EP-137 Yvan de Baets of Brasserie de la Senne — Good Beer Hunting (fast-forward to 8m45s, he talks about Taras Boulba)

(episode of Tournée Générale, 2011-02-23, now blocked by the copyright holder, interview with de Baets was at 14 minutes in)

https://www.lecho.be/nieuws/archief/Le-brasseur-extremiste-Acte-I-Senne-1/9565816 (in French, and paywalled)

 

[Early8]

Thanks for sharing your notes. Like you, I dove in deep to learn more about TB. Now I am off to learn more about M36 and Harveys.... I brew alot of ordinary bitter as well.