Talk me out of quitting all-grain

[Lazybrew]

For the seasoned all-grain mashers out there:

I had a horrible brew day yesterday. I was brewing the blonde/cream ale I've been working on and just had a hell of a time.

First of all, my goal was to determine my extract efficiency with a dumbed-down version of this beer using only pale and vienna malts. I chose them for their high enzyme content. Anyway, I mashed in my cooler/mash tun at 150-ish for 60 min. Then sparged with enough water to get 7 gallons of wort. I had a slightly stuck runoff, so I ran the whole batch back through the lauter to get some of the suspended material out and that worked great.

Here's the big problem. My target gravity for this beer is 1.040. After the runoff I took a gravity reading of 1.019 for seven gallons. 1.019? Check my math, but had I just boiled that wort down to five gallons, I'd have only ended up with about 1.026 OG. I ended up saving the batch with about 1 1/2 lbs. of DME, but if I'm getting half of the fermentable sugar out of extract, what's the point in spending all this time with the mash?

I've had some problems with low efficiency in the past, (this is my 6th all-grain batch) but nothing like this. Any suggestions? I've read the tips for improving efficiency, (sparge with more water, more grain etc.) and have employed them successfully. But this batch has me frustrated. Talk me down.

 

[double_e5]

You are going to need to post a recipe to get some good advice.

I'm still kind of confused on what you did to get the suspended material out. Did you empty the cooler with the spent grain, and run your collected wort back through?

 

[Lazybrew]

exactly what i did in regards to the re-lautering. I emptied the cooler of the grains, cleaned it and ran the wort through.

Grain bill:

7.5 lbs. Pale 2-row
2.0 lbs. Vienna

boring, I know. But this was kind of an experimental batch.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

I have some questions of my own. You say you took gravity of your seven gallon runoff. What temp was it at that time? My runoff temps are usually about 140 deg. Now a gravity of 1.019 at 140* translates to 1.035 at 60*. And a 1 hour boil-off of 15% will bring that up to 1.043. If that is your situation, you'd be fine.

 

[Lazybrew]

Additionally, I used 10qt. strike water for the mash (hard for me to measure accurately to a half-quart in my brewpot)

 

[Lazybrew]

Yeah, I brought the sample all the way down to 60 degrees, taking measurements and doing the corrections all the way. 1.019 was the reading all the way.

The only thing I can think of is that the starch conversion wasn't complete. HBS dosen't carry the Iodine for testing, so I guess i need to get it online.

 

[Blender]

Promash indicates that your efficiency would be 40% according to your posted notes. That's rough to take. How are you milling the grain? That is usually the first remedy to poor extraction.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

The only thing I can think of is that the starch conversion wasn't complete. HBS dosen't carry the Iodine for testing, so I guess i need to get it online.

You can use Iodophor, or you can get iodine tincture at any pharmacy. If they don't have it onhand, thy will get it.


EDIT: Also, how did you collect your sample??? First runnings? Final runnings? Dip right into the brew kettle? I always just plop my hydrometer right into the brewpot before I start my boil. That way I am confident I have a well- mixed and accurate reading.

 

[Edcculus]

Here is a great write-up from the Wiki on how to evaluate your crush.

Evlauating the crush

 

[Lazybrew]

I have local HBS crush my grains onsite. I've always bought my grain there, and had it crushed. Up to this point, it's been fine.

 

[Edcculus]

I was reading through and you said you ran all of the collected wort back through the lauter tun? Did you use more sparge water after? If you ran it back through, a lot of the sugars COULD have stuck back to the grain bed. I don't think that could account for the low efficiency, but it certainly didn't help.

also, what program are you using? I use the "classic brewsheet" view in Beersmith to help me calculate all of my volumes. If you provide it with directions (your mash, sparge and boil setup) it can tell you exactly what volumes to use, and even strike temperatures.

In this case, Beersmith is telling me to dough in with close to 3 gallons of water to acheive a water/grain ratio of 1.25 quarts/lb. Then it is telling me I need 4.5 gallons of sparge water to acheive a preboil volume of just over 6 gallons (which will boil down to 5 gallons assuming 11% evaporation rate in an hour).

In your case, 7 gallons isn't absurd. Especially if you are boiling it down to 5 gallons. If you are following steps similar to this, there might be another culprit here.

 

[Lazybrew]

Pretty sure the second lauter didn't really hurt me. I did not run additional sparge water as I had already dumped the grains.

As far as programs, I'm not using any computer program, no. I've always used a ratio of 1qt. strike water to 1lb. grain, but in this case I over shot slightly (10qt. to 9.5lb)

 

[Blender]

I have local HBS crush my grains onsite. I've always bought my grain there, and had it crushed. Up to this point, it's been fine.

Lazybrew, just to be sure does your grain look close to these examples? There have been some pretty poor examples of crushes that some people have gotten in the past.

 

[Lazybrew]

To be honest I can't remember, Blender. I will surely take a hard look next time. Seems to me the husks seemed finer than the pics you've posted. But my memory is shaky at best. At any rate, if I so desire can good results be had by crushing at home with the ol' rolling pin/ziploc bag routine? I've seen it done on utube instructionals, but never tried it.

 

[Edcculus]

No, you can't get a good crush on base malts using that method. Its ok for adjuncts used in extract brewing as steeping grains. You'd be better off using the worst grain mill in the world than trying to crush 10 lbs of grain with a rolling pin.

 

[brown_dog_us]

40% efficiency is really low. I did an experiment once to see what my efficiency would be using the least efficient methods. I grinded my grains in a food processor and mashed with the brew in a bag method. I still came away with 56%. My guess is there has to be an error in your numbers. Have you checked the accuracy of your thermometer? Are you sure the LHBS didn't accidentally short you 1/3 of your grain? Is there any way the wort wasn't mixed well?

 

[Lazybrew]

You know brown dog, you may be on to something there. The wort was surely mixed well, and believe me, I checked and re-checked the numbers. But as for being shorted...maybe. My local HBS could have made a boo-boo. The guy has been in business for 14 years and is a hell of a nice guy, but we all make mistakes. I really wish I had weighed the bag-will do in the future. As far as my thermometer, I doubt there is a problem there.

 

[Lazybrew]

I want to thank everyone who posted today. Although I still have my concerns, and we may or may not have gotten to the bottom of yesterday's horror-I appreciate everyone's input and support.

Kyle

 

[Jaybird]

have you calibrated your hydrometer? and your temp probe?

 

[Aspera]

I have local HBS crush my grains onsite. I've always bought my grain there, and had it crushed. Up to this point, it's been fine.

A bad crush is the most common problem. If you had your temp between 140 and 155 F for 60 minutes, almost any malt should yield >40% efficiency.

 

[boo boo]

My local HBS could have made a boo-boo. .

You called?

Really there are a lot of things that contribute to bad efficiency. A bad crush being primary. Other causes could be too much mash water for the grist, not having the correct temperture for starch conversion, the wrong type/or amount of grain, the wrong composition of water profile regarding pH and the calcium needed for good conversion.

All in all it is hard to screw up that bad resulting in that low of a OG. Are you sure all your measurements regarding tempertures and water amounts are accurate?

 

[dontman]

Pretty sure the second lauter didn't really hurt me. I did not run additional sparge water as I had already dumped the grains.

As far as programs, I'm not using any computer program, no. I've always used a ratio of 1qt. strike water to 1lb. grain, but in this case I over shot slightly (10qt. to 9.5lb)

If I am reading this correctly you DID NOT SPARGE! You vorlaufed with the original mash wort but did no additional rinsing of the grains to get the remaining 40-60% of the sugars?

Or are you saying that you collected 7 gallons of runoff and then reran it through the grainbed. If this is the case my money is on a way too thick mash.

Please tell me I'm wrong. With 9 lbs of grain I use 13.5 Qts for mashing and then do two sparges of ~ 2.5 gallons each.

Also, you use a VERY thick mash. 1QT per pound is too thick, in my opinion. Especially after reading the thread where people are getting such good efficiency using 2 qts per pound.

 

[boo boo]

If I am reading this correctly you DID NOT SPARGE! You vorlaufed with the original mash wort but did no additional rinsing of the grains to get the remaining 40-60% of the sugars?

If he did this, his gravity would be sky high.

 

[Lazybrew]

dontman, read first page of this thread. I indeed did sparge with approximately 6 gallons. After the sparge (which was stuck at times) the wort had some suspended material from all the f*cking around with the grains, so I simply ran the wort through my lauter system again after removing the spent grains to clean it up.

I only included this detail because it was unusual and I thought I should be thorough. As far as grain-to-strike water, ok-I probably need to do some tweaking there. Notice this was posted in the "beginner's forum"? I've just used that ratio because that's what Charlie Papazian recommends in the "Complete Joy...". Maybe the thick mash lead to the stuck runoff...?

 

[dontman]

You are misunderstanding the tone of my post. I was actually pretty sure I was wrong and that you had sparged to get 7 gallons.

That is why I said that my money is on too thick of a mash.

No offense to your brewing ability was intended. I've seen Papazian's recommendation. In fact I have gone that low before but I have been convinced to head in the opposite direction with experimentation and especially after reading the recent thread about going with a very thin mash.



A couple benefits I have seen. Almost immediate temp stabilization throughout the mash. Easy stirring. Very easy to set the grainbed during the vorlauf. Plus, my efficiency has edged up a few points.

 

[Lazybrew]

dontman,

thanks for your recommendations. sorry if I was a bit defensive. I am leaning toward the possibility that my LHBS may have inadvertently shorted me on my grain bill. I ran through my calculations and can't really find any other real possibility. Just looking at my previous batches, I'm getting between 61 and 68% eff., and it's ironic that I got this crazy figure when I was SPECIFICALLY brewing to determine my actual eff. Go figure.

I will look up the thread you have suggested and take note. Thanks again.

 

[eriktlupus]

it could be that the grain was old/high in moisture before mashing/stale. also what did running the wort back thru the mash tun gain you without the bed to filter it?

my best mash rates have come from a thinner mash 1.3qts/# and up.

 

[Grinder12000]

LOL - THAT is why I have no goal to go AG. I just had 4 brews I gave to beer judges and all were 40-43 in scores - not bad for a mini masher and 3 hour brews.

I'm nut cutting AG people - just getting back at perceived AG snobs that look down at non-AG people.

Lazybrew - I sincerely feel your pain and I'm sorry for a bad brew day - as a member of the brethern of homebrewers - that sucks.

BTW - I was shorted once from an online place. I was about .10 off and could NOT figured it out.

 

[Lazybrew]

SS braid filtered out the "floaties"

 

[Lazybrew]

Grinder-

I wish it was just about the beer, man. If it was I would still be doing partial mashes-they've yielded the best drinking beers I've ever made. But for me it's the do-it-from-scratch itch that keeps me going all grain. I did partial batches for about six months and have been brewing all-grain for about 4, so it's about time to step it up and get it right.

Anyway, thanks for your post. No matter what I'll still keep brewing...I'm too cheap to pay retail for a buzz!

 

[brown_dog_us]

It could be the LHBS accidentally shorted you or miss heard you when you ordered. Hopefully, this is just a strange brew day that won't happen again.

 

[TexLaw]

Here are the steps I would take, sorta in order of importance:

1 - Make sure you are properly measuring your gravity (i.e., if you are measuring with a hydrometer, know the temperature of what you are measuring so that you can calculate properly).

2 - Recirculate more and a slower rate to avoid stuck sparges. Nothing will mess up your efficiency more than a stuck sparge.

3 - Loosen up your mash. One quart per pound is pushing the lower limits for a saccharification rest. It works fine for a protein rest, but 1.25-1.5 is better for sacc rests. With a ratio of 1, you can expect a slow conversion. With your grain bill, I probably would have used 12 quarts of water, maybe 13 or 14.

4 - Check your conversion. Iodophor works great. I also recommend diluting the iodophor around 2:1 or 3:1 with water. That just makes it a little easier to see the results, and you can eyeball it. Also, do a taste test. Just dip your finger in the mash and taste it. If it tastes starchy, you have a ways to go for conversion. If it's sweet, you're probably done or close to it.

5 - It sounds you are batch sparging, so split your sparge into two batches. That is a very easy way to increase your efficiency.

6 - You never mentioned your sparge temperature. If your grain bed is below 165F when you sparge, you are leaving a whole bunch of fermentables behind. I usually take mine up to closer to 170F.

7 - Check your mash pH or use a buffer. I once had a mash with a similar grain bill, but I forgot to add my salts/buffer. After an hour, I had very little conversion and was wondering what the heck happened when I saw my little bowl of salts on the table. Cussing, I added the salts and stirred them well into the mash. Twenty minutes later, I had full conversion.

8 - Don't brew like your name suggests. Measure your strike water volume. Measure your mash temperature. Be aware of what you are doing. Just about every brewer that takes shortcuts early on ends up spending much more time fixing their mistakes than they save on the shortcuts.

Yeah, you may have been shorted on grains, but I bet you would notice if you were shorted six pounds of grain (or even three from a ten-pound bill). Yes, you may have a bad crush, but it would have to be absolutely horrible to hit 40% efficiency. No matter how you slice it, your process needs some fixing.


TL

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm sorry if this was covered already, I only half read every post. I get that you're using a braid in a cooler as your separation medium. Therefore I assume you're batch sparging. If not, please clarify.

I agree with others that 1qt/lb is just too thick. I'd recommend trying 1.25qt/lb. It will let you stir the mash much better.

You did drain off the first runnings before adding sparge water right?

Did you add the entire 6 gallons of sparge at once?

Did you stir the sparge water into the grain really really well before running off?