Taking time efficiency to ridiculous extremes 79 minute brew

[Owly055]

I did my experimental "no boil" no chill with a small 15 min decoction boil for hop isomerization yesterday.

Total time 79 minutes including crushing grain, and time spent this AM transferring, pitching, and clean up........... That's right, one hour and 19 minutes!!

Process was a 30 minute inline mash, inline meaning I doughed in at 130F doing BIAB, fast heated to 145 from the 120 actual temp after adding grain (about 5 min), then slow heated to 155 at about 3 minutes to the degree. Pulled the grain bag out, and quickly dumped an estimated 3/4 gallon of wort into another pot, put it on high heat, and tossed in my bittering addition as it rapidly came to a boil.... about 5 minutes.... Boiled the decoction for 10 minutes, added my flavor and aroma addition, and boiled an additional 5 minutes for a total of 15 minute boil, and about a 20 minute total operation. The decoction went back into the wort, which raised the wort only to about 155 again, so I put the total back on the stove top and raised the temp to 165 (with the whirlpool hops in it). Covered the pot, and set it in a cool place over night.
This morning, I dumped the starsan out of my fermenter, set it in the sink and poured the wort in, and pitched a container of top crop. Clean up was a breeze, as there was nothing stuck to the pot.... about 7 minutes for the entire morning operation

I didn't keep super accurate record of actual specific times for individual operations, so my specific times may not add up to the total....... they are estimates. What I did do was brew with a stop watch, though I didn't rush..... I just used it to keep accurate track of total time. Hops were measured while I was stirring the mash intermittently, and during the various stages, I made sure everything was in place for the next stage. Amazingly, I also made and ate supper (simple) during the process, and washed my dishes!!

My brew day was 79 minutes over 2 days with very little slack time, but it was NOT a feverish rush, due to having a plan and knowing exactly what I needed and when I needed it.

The wort looks very normal, clear wort on top, and the typical deep layer loose break material you see before fermentation if you use a clear fermenter....... Though there was neither a hot, nor a cold break for most of the wort.

SHOOTING FOR THE ONE HOUR MARK!!

If this works out decently, next time I will make a couple of changes. I will cut my mash down to 10 minutes in the mash range..... or at least until gravity peaks, and I will put my wort on a hot plate to bring the temp up to the point where my decoction will combine to give me 165F. Then I will put some amylase AG300 in the fermenter to break down unfermentable sugars. This should put me below 60 minutes total for a brew day making 2.5 gallons of beer.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I just did the numbers and I believe I can complete a no boil/no chill 2.5 gallon batch with a small decoction boil in about 52 total minutes. Two weeks from now, I plan to try this using the same fermenter.

H.W.

 

[Yooper]

I don't like sours, so never brew them, but a berliner weiss is a very short no boil beer as well.

When did you pull the decoction? I didn't see that in your write up.

 

[Owly055]

I don't like sours, so never brew them, but a berliner weiss is a very short no boil beer as well.

When did you pull the decoction? I didn't see that in your write up.

I pulled the decoction at the end of the mash. I do not expect this to be a sour beer. 165 will kill lactobacillus, and a sterile lid went on the mash tun while still hot. There is very little chance of infection here.

"slow heated to 155 at about 3 minutes to the degree. Pulled the grain bag out, and quickly dumped an estimated 3/4 gallon of wort into another pot, put it on high heat, and tossed in my bittering addition as it rapidly came to a boil"

Remember this is not a decoction mash, but only a "hop decoction" post mash.


H.W.

 

[Yooper]

A decoction is when you boil grain- I missed that in your explanation.

 

[kombat]

I do not expect this to be a sour beer.

Place your bets!

My money's on a pellicle within a week.

 

[Owly055]

A decoction is when you boil grain- I missed that in your explanation.

Pardon me.........I did fail to point out that this was a "hop decoction", not a mash decoction. Decoction in brewing USUALLY means boiling some of the grain in your mash, but by the broader definition of decoction, this definitely IS a decoction, though it does not match your idea of a decoction as regards brewing.

H.W.

de·coc·tion
diˈkäkSHən/
noun
noun: decoction; plural noun: decoctions

the liquor resulting from concentrating the essence of a substance by heating or boiling, especially a medicinal preparation made from a plant.
"a decoction of a root"
the action or process of extracting the essence of something.

Origin
late Middle English: from late Latin decoctio(n-), from decoquere ‘boil down’ (see decoct).

 

[Owly055]

Place your bets!

My money's on a pellicle within a week.

Oh Ye of Little Faith ;-) Were we neighbors, I would lay money that you are wrong in this.


H.W.

 

[kombat]

Oh Ye of Little Faith ;-) Were we neighbors, I would lay money that you are wrong in this.

Promise you'll update this thread either way?

 

[g-star]

To each his own, but I'm left asking...why???

This is a hobby in which a great deal of the pleasure comes from the careful crafting of a unique product, and all the different equipment, process, and recipe tweaks that ultimately decide the outcome. Don't understand why you would want to minimize the amount of time spent doing something that is ostensibly supposed to be for fun.

 

[Homercidal]

To each his own, but I'm left asking...why???

This is a hobby in which a great deal of the pleasure comes from the careful crafting of a unique product, and all the different equipment, process, and recipe tweaks that ultimately decide the outcome. Don't understand why you would want to minimize the amount of time spent doing something that is ostensibly supposed to be for fun.

Sometimes squeezing a brewday into your schedule can be problematic, or stressful. It may be useful for some people to be able to accomplish a brew and not have to stress about fitting it in with other things.

If quality of finished beer doesn't suffer, then why complain about another person's methods?

For some, experimentation is more the joy. Processes are adjusted as theories are tested. Mayhap a new method of homebrewing comes from doing what seems unusual previously.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

I love Owly's threads. Always an enjoyable read!

 

[Gavin C]

Pardon me.........I did fail to point out that this was a "hop decoction", not a mash decoction. Decoction in brewing USUALLY means boiling some of the grain in your mash, but by the broader definition of decoction, this definitely IS a decoction, though it does not match your idea of a decoction as regards brewing.

H.W.

de·coc·tion
diˈkäkSHən/
noun
noun: decoction; plural noun: decoctions

the liquor resulting from concentrating the essence of a substance by heating or boiling, especially a medicinal preparation made from a plant.
"a decoction of a root"
the action or process of extracting the essence of something.

Origin
late Middle English: from late Latin decoctio(n-), from decoquere ‘boil down’ (see decoct).

By this logic every single regular brew involving hops added to the boil incorporates a decoction.

Your version matches no ones idea of a decoction other than your own.

I see nothing of merit in your approach. Reads to me like 79mins of wasted time and ingredients. A no-boil beer will result and behave like a no boil beer behaves.

 

[nopride]

Outstanding! I like the creativity in the process. I'm curious to hear how it turns out. How does boiling the hops in a smaller amount of wort effect the utilization? Can you cover how you roughly calculate the IBUs? Or maybe a sample recipe could help too. I'd like to give this a try.

To the person asking why - sometimes you hit periods in life where you don't have as much hobby time. I have 3 kids 4 & under, so a 6-7 hours for a brew day are getting harder find. Being able to do an occasional recipe like this would let me continue to brew more often. Right now I'm brewing pretty much once every other month

 

[stpug]

...a great deal of the pleasure comes from the careful crafting of a unique product, and all the different equipment, process, and recipe tweaks that ultimately decide the outcome.

I'd say that owly nailed those points. It sounds as though he carefully planned out this brewday to create a unique end product using different equipment, process, and recipe tweaks to achieve his end goal.

Don't understand why you would want to minimize the amount of time spent doing something that is ostensibly supposed to be for fun.

At no point in his post did I understand that he wasn't having fun with this brew.

Technically speaking, his beer should have killed most microbes that would cause normal souring in batches. He hit proper pasteurization temperatures for minimal length of time (few minutes at 165F). Assuming no post-chill contamination then I would estimate a clean beer.

 

[broadbill]

By this logic every single regular brew involving hops added to the boil incorporates a decoction.

Your version matches no ones idea of a decoction other than your own.

I see nothing of merit in your approach. Reads to me like 79mins of wasted time and ingredients. A no-boil beer will result and behave like a no boil beer behaves.

good thing it wasn't your 79 minutes of wasted time and ingredients,eh?

 

[stpug]

By this logic every single regular brew involving hops added to the boil incorporates a decoction.

Your version matches no ones idea of a decoction other than your own.

I see nothing of merit in your approach. Reads to me like 79mins of wasted time and ingredients. A no-boil beer will result and behave like a no boil beer behaves.

Every mashout decoction involves a thin decoction is pulled. As homebrewers, we generally do this via the ball valve thereby filtering out most grain particles. This IS considered a decoction for mashout purposes; granted it's aim is to raise the temperature of the mash which owly seems to have failed at that effort. While I would by no means consider this any kind of traditional decoction for the typical purposes, after re-reading his process I would conclude that this is some form of decoction (in a round-about kind of way).

It's only wasted time and ingredients if owly deems it that way after reaping his rewards; of course, we are all allowed to form our own opinions.

As far as a 'no-boil' beer result, I suspect you are correct on this point. I would expect the beer to "suffer" from the no-boil (raw ale) characteristics, but perhaps they will be minimal or even contributory.

 

[stpug]

I did my experimental "no boil" no chill with a small 15 min decoction boil for hop isomerization yesterday..........

What was never stated was the kind of beer you were trying to brew. I look forward to the results as you perceive them.

 

[Owly055]

Promise you'll update this thread either way?

absolutely!

 

[kombat]

his beer should have killed most microbes that would cause normal souring in batches. He hit proper pasteurization temperatures for minimal length of time (few minutes at 165F). Assuming no post-chill contamination then I would estimate a clean beer.

Maybe if he'd chilled quickly and pitched a ton of yeast, it might have a chance, but he "no chilled" this batch. That means he had a pot of sugar-rich wort that had not been boiled, sitting overnight. I'll be shocked if this batch does not become contaminated.

 

[LandoLincoln]

To each his own, but I'm left asking...why???

This is a hobby in which a great deal of the pleasure comes from the careful crafting of a unique product, and all the different equipment, process, and recipe tweaks that ultimately decide the outcome. Don't understand why you would want to minimize the amount of time spent doing something that is ostensibly supposed to be for fun.

Think of it as Speed Golf.

 

[treacheroustexan]

Following.

 

[Gavin C]

Every mashout decoction involves a thing decoction is pulled. As homebrewers, we generally do this via the ball valve thereby filtering out most grain particles.

Decoction as it relates to brewing is removing a subset of the mash to be boiled in a second vessel +/- a saccharification rest on the decoted portion prior to bring it to a boil. This is returned to the main mash to raise its temperature to the next planned rest temperature. Repeated as needed to match the brewers desired mash profile.

This is not what the OP is doing nor is it what you are describing.

Boiling hops in wort is not a decoction.

Filtering grain out prior to bringing wort to a boil is not a decoction.

 

[Owly055]

By this logic every single regular brew involving hops added to the boil incorporates a decoction.

Your version matches no ones idea of a decoction other than your own.

I see nothing of merit in your approach. Reads to me like 79mins of wasted time and ingredients. A no-boil beer will result and behave like a no boil beer behaves.

You could use the definition this way if you wanted to.....

My decoction is distinctly similar to the term as use in brewing as only a portion of the wort is removed to be boiled with the hops, then returned to the wort to raise the temp. The similarity to a decoction in a mash is very strong both in terms of procedure and purpose. In the mash it is used to enhance the flavor derived from the grain, and to raise the mash temp as it is returned. I'm doing exactly the same thing only in the next step of brewing, and decocting the hops instead of grain.

That said, I really don't care weather my hop decoction matches anybody else's idea of a decoction. It serves a similar purpose and looks like it will work well.


H.W.

 

[poptarts]

I bet you i can make extract beer faster and taste better then this crap shoot.

 

[Owly055]

Outstanding! I like the creativity in the process. I'm curious to hear how it turns out. How does boiling the hops in a smaller amount of wort effect the utilization? Can you cover how you roughly calculate the IBUs? Or maybe a sample recipe could help too. I'd like to give this a try.

To the person asking why - sometimes you hit periods in life where you don't have as much hobby time. I have 3 kids 4 & under, so a 6-7 hours for a brew day are getting harder find. Being able to do an occasional recipe like this would let me continue to brew more often. Right now I'm brewing pretty much once every other month

I calculated the hop utilization exactly as I would boiling the whole brew.... This may not be accurate, but tasting the wort, I would say that it's pretty close. It's worth noting that I used Crystal leaf hops for my flavor and aroma hops, an ounce and a half total, and the hop bags remained in the wort until I racked to the fermenter. My "bittering addition", improbably was Willamette, of which I used a full ounce. Brew size, again was 2.5 gallons, so it's very generously hopped at one ounce per gallon total.

H.W.

 

[broadbill]

I bet you i can make extract beer faster and taste better then this crap shoot.

They probably said the same thing about BIAB, batch sparging, and no- chill.

No really, your input is very valuable and informative.

 

[lumpher]

To each his own, but I'm left asking...why???

This is a hobby in which a great deal of the pleasure comes from the careful crafting of a unique product, and all the different equipment, process, and recipe tweaks that ultimately decide the outcome. Don't understand why you would want to minimize the amount of time spent doing something that is ostensibly supposed to be for fun.

Maybe part of his enjoyment is derived from experimenting to see how quick it can be done. I've done that once. I did a 10 gallon all-grain 60 minute boil in 2 hours and 50 minutes, from heating the water to putting the buckets in the fermentation chamber, with all equipment cleaned up. Like Owly, mine was timed, but not in a rush. Only time I've ever done it like that, but I was curious.

 

[Magnus314]

Why is everyone so defensive about this? Owly, you really know how to get 'em riled up!

How did you decide on this methodology? Is there some benefit to pouring the wort back through the grain that's worth the risk?

 

[stpug]

Maybe if he'd chilled quickly and pitched a ton of yeast, it might have a chance, but he "no chilled" this batch. That means he had a pot of sugar-rich wort that had not been boiled, sitting overnight. I'll be shocked if this batch does not become contaminated.

I agree that there's probably a higher chance of this batch "going bad" than a traditionally boiled batch. However, "no chill" works for many folks and doesn't result in bad/sour beer; granted, using a different process to eliminate air and sanitize the fermenter. I believe that the pasteurization may be sufficient to stave off contamination in this case, but we shall wait and see.

 

[Owly055]

What was never stated was the kind of beer you were trying to brew. I look forward to the results as you perceive them.

The beer is a pseudo cream ale with an OG of 1.040, very loosely based on the Cream of Three Crops recipe..... but considerably higher IBUs and hop presence, and no corn, so it cannot legitimately be called a cream ale, or really be associated with the original recipe legitimately.

2.5 gallon brew
IBU 25
SRM 2.4
ABV 4.73 (projected based on actual OG and predicted FG with US-05)
OG 1.044 (actual)

2.5 pounds 2 row
1 pound rice

1 oz Willamette (pellet) @ 15
1 oz Crystal (leaf) @ 5
.5 oz Crystal (leaf) whirlpool @ 165F ......... until cooled (about 8 hours)

Being a very light beer, any "defects" will be immediately evident in the finished product. The flavor of the wort is great, and it is in full ferment with krausen and lots of visible action in my transparent fermenter. I pitched at about 7:00, and it's now 11:45

H.W.

 

[stpug]

Decoction as it relates to brewing is removing a subset of the mash to be boiled in a second vessel +/- a saccharification rest on the decoted portion prior to bring it to a boil. This is returned to the main mash to raise its temperature to the next planned rest temperature. Repeated as needed to match the brewers desired mash profile.

This is not what the OP is doing nor is it what you are describing.

Boiling hops in wort is not a decoction.

Filtering grain out prior to bringing wort to a boil is not a decoction.

He removed a subset of the mash. He boiled in a second vessel. A saccharification rest is not needed for a mashout decoction. He returned it to the main mash (I assume with the hopes of raising the temperature), but failed to raise the temp. Perhaps this could simply be considered a failed mashout decoction.

If hops end up in a decoction I do not believe disqualifies the process as a decoction.

Mashout decoctions, as performed by most homebrewers, generally DO filter most/all of the grain since we simply pull the "thin decoction" from the ball valve which usually means it's filtered to some degree.

At some point you ask yourself, how much grain needs to be included to be called a "decoction" - particularly a "thin decoction".

 

[hunter_le five]

Owly, you really know how to get 'em riled up!

You should see some of his other threads.

 

[Owly055]

He removed a subset of the mash. He boiled in a second vessel. A saccharification rest is not needed for a mashout decoction. He returned it to the main mash (I assume with the hopes of raising the temperature), but failed to raise the temp. Perhaps this could simply be considered a failed mashout decoction.

If hops end up in a decoction I do not believe disqualifies the process as a decoction.

Mashout decoctions, as performed by most homebrewers, generally DO filter most/all of the grain since we simply pull the "thin decoction" from the ball valve which usually means it's filtered to some degree.

As some point you ask yourself, how much grain needs to be included to be called a "decoction" - particularly a "thin decoction".

It raised the temp about 10 degrees, requiring heat to reach the desired mashout temp. I did not expect to reach the desired temp with my small decoction, that was a secondary purpose. Hop isomerization was the primary purpose. Next time I may increase the volume... or I may not.

H.W.

 

[stpug]

The beer is a pseudo cream ale with an OG of 1.040, very loosely based on the Cream of Three Crops recipe..... but considerably higher IBUs and hop presence, and no corn, so it cannot legitimately be called a cream ale, or really be associated with the original recipe legitimately.

2.5 gallon brew
IBU 25
SRM 2.4
ABV 4.73 (projected based on actual OG and predicted FG with US-05)
OG 1.044 (actual)

2.5 pounds 2 row
1 pound corn

1 oz Willamette (pellet) @ 15
1 oz Crystal (leaf) @ 5
.5 oz Crystal (leaf) whirlpool @ 165F ......... until cooled (about 8 hours)

Being a very light beer, any "defects" will be immediately evident in the finished product. The flavor of the wort is great, and it is in full ferment with krausen and lots of visible action in my transparent fermenter. I pitched at about 7:00, and it's now 11:45

H.W.

That's a great recipe choice to really critique this beer. There's nothing for any off characteristics to hide behind. Good call.

I assume you meant 'no rice' because you definitely listed that corn is in the recipe. And, I don't think either missing from the recipe exclude it from being a "cream ale".

 

[kombat]

He removed a subset of the mash. He boiled in a second vessel. A saccharification rest is not needed for a mashout decoction. He returned it to the main mash

I don't think that's what Owly was describing at all.

The way I interpreted it was, he collected his runnings, completely separating it from the grains, like we all do. He then took some of that wort and boiled it in another smaller pot, adding hops, while the rest of the wort sat in the main pot. There was no grain left in the process at this point - just 2 differently sized pots of wort, one boiling, one just sitting there. After 20 minutes or so of boiling the smaller pot of wort and hops, he added it back to the main pot of wort, which had the effect of raising the overall temperature of the combined pot of wort to around 165° F or so.

No mash was boiled, no wort was returned to any mash.

 

[Owly055]

I would like to apologize to those who feel this is just plain wrong.... I've obviously offended your sensibilities. You are really going to be offended and outraged when you read about my sub one hour all grain brew process in about two weeks.

I heartily encourage you to shun my threads for your health ;-)

High blood pressure and appoplexy can kill you and I would be very upset to find someone had died while reading one of my threads ;-(


H.W.

 

[Owly055]

That's a great recipe choice to really critique this beer. There's nothing for any off characteristics to hide behind. Good call.

I assume you meant 'no rice' because you definitely listed that corn is in the recipe. And, I don't think either missing from the recipe exclude it from being a "cream ale".

Oops.... you are correct, I'll correct my typo.

 

[Gavin C]

He removed a subset of the mash.

Per the Op's post #1, he did not. He lautered and took 3/4 gallon of sweet wort to boil with hops.

Pulled the grain bag out, and quickly dumped an estimated 3/4 gallon of wort into another pot, put it on high heat, and tossed in my bittering addition as it rapidly came to a boi

 

[stpug]

I don't think that's what Owly was describing at all.

The way I interpreted it was, he collected his runnings, completely separating it from the grains, like we all do. He then took some of that wort and boiled it in another smaller pot, adding hops, while the rest of the wort sat in the main pot. There was no grain left in the process at this point - just 2 differently sized pots of wort, one boiling, one just sitting there. After 20 minutes or so of boiling the smaller pot of wort and hops, he added it back to the main pot of wort, which had the effect of raising the overall temperature of the combined pot of wort to around 165° F or so.

No mash was boiled, no wort was returned to any mash.

You may be correct, I wasn't there to witness brewday. I was interpreting from what he posted:

Process was a 30 minute inline mash, inline meaning I doughed in at 130F doing BIAB, fast heated to 145 from the 120 actual temp after adding grain (about 5 min), then slow heated to 155 at about 3 minutes to the degree. Pulled the grain bag out, and quickly dumped an estimated 3/4 gallon of wort into another pot, put it on high heat, and tossed in my bittering addition as it rapidly came to a boil.... about 5 minutes.... Boiled the decoction for 10 minutes, added my flavor and aroma addition, and boiled an additional 5 minutes for a total of 15 minute boil, and about a 20 minute total operation. The decoction went back into the wort, which raised the wort only to about 155 again, so I put the total back on the stove top and raised the temp to 165 (with the whirlpool hops in it). Covered the pot, and set it in a cool place over night.

I see:
-mash up to 155F
-----remove portion of wort and put in separate pot
-----boil wort portion w/ hops
-return portion to main wort (missing attempt at raising mash temp)
-direct heat all wort to 165F
-cover; no chill