Sweet Beer Prevention - please critique - Help!

[beerfactory]

Problem: My current beer has a sickeningly sweet finish (please assume yeast was completely attenuated for purposes of discussion).
likely Cause: Brewed a Pale Ale with below grain bill. Single infusion mash at 158 degrees. Too much Crystal 10L and mash temp too high.
Reason for posting: Looking for a countermeasure to prevent my next beer from having the same problem (sweetness). Ideally, I would like my next beer to be as dry as possible while being balanced. Would like to brew next weekend - my local LHBS is very limited/small and likely to have older hops, but they are definitely available. I am not overly confident they have grains on hand but do have extract.
Background: I am a BIAB brewer without a great deal of experience to begin with and starting up again after a couple years without brewing.
Grain Bill/On hand grains (ordered this milled and combined into one bag- mistake. I can add to it or dispose it. 10 gallon brew kettle is limiting factor on addition.)
Pale Ale Malt 9 lbs
Vienna Malt 2 lbs
Crystal 10L1 lb
On hand pellet hops:
2 oz Cascade
1 oz Citra
1 oz Hallertau
Yeast:
Safale 05
Brewing notes from last batch:
6.5 gallons water (needs to be 7.5 gallons next time as final volume 1 gallon short)
heated to 170 degrees and added grains (strike water too high!!)
mashed for 60 minutes at 158 degrees
heated to 170 and held for 30 minutes
drained grain
added 1 oz hops @ boil & started 60" timer
added .5oz @ 30"
added .25oz @ 15" put chiller in kettle
added .25oz @ 5"
added an extra 1oz of citra with 5" left in boil
Chilled to 68 degrees
racked to fermenter after wort was at 68 degrees
pitched yeast at 65 degrees
set temperature to 65 degrees in fermentation chamber (this was ambient, will tape my probe to carboy for next batch)
fermented 13 days and crashed cooled to 38 degrees (will let my next batch sit longer in the fermenter as I have a hefe ready to keg this Wednesday)
kegged on 12.23.17 and set to 12psi at 38 degrees
final volume was about 1 gallons short
Initial tasting notes - not too bad. "yeasty taste". no acrid bite. drank several glasses on 12.29.17 and enjoyed. (this has changed over the last couple days as all I focus on now is the sweet finish)

 

[Yooper]

A couple of things you already know- high mash temp and a high % of crystal malts will provide a sweeter finish.

The first thing I'd do is check the AAUs on the hops packages, because bitterness from the hops is the most important part of the recipe for balance.

Hops taste great, but the primary use has been to bitter the beer to counteract the sweet malt. So check those AAUs, and then use a free recipe calculator to figure out the OG and the IBUs you can work with. Brewer's Friend has a free trial, and you can see how that works out.

Thirteen days in the fermenter is plenty of time for a routine ale, but S05 is slow to fall out, so it can leave a yeast flavor until it's cold crashed for a bit.

 

[chickypad]

So you're going for a American pale ale? I wouldn't throw out your grains. If you mash that low and bitter it properly it should not be overly sweet. You don't mention the specs from you last beer - OG, FG, IBU's etc. I would use the cascade and citra late or for dryhopping, and get some neutral bittering hop like magnum, warrior, etc. Plug it in to a calculator and use enough bittering at 60 to get about 40 IBU's. Mash down around 150-152 this time. Keep your ferm temps mid 60's (beer not ambient). Are you paying attention to water? If not you can use the water primer in the science forum for basic instructions.

 

[waldoar15]

No need to throw out the grain, you mashed too high for the style. The lb of crystal didn't help.

 

[beerfactory]

A couple of things you already know- high mash temp and a high % of crystal malts will provide a sweeter finish.

The first thing I'd do is check the AAUs on the hops packages, because bitterness from the hops is the most important part of the recipe for balance.

Hops taste great, but the primary use has been to bitter the beer to counteract the sweet malt. So check those AAUs, and then use a free recipe calculator to figure out the OG and the IBUs you can work with. Brewer's Friend has a free trial, and you can see how that works out.

Thirteen days in the fermenter is plenty of time for a routine ale, but S05 is slow to fall out, so it can leave a yeast flavor until it's cold crashed for a bit.

thanks for the tip on Brewer's friend. I checked IBU's and input:
Pale Ale Malt 9 lbs
Vienna Malt 2 lbs
Crystal 10L1 lb
60" mash @ 150 degrees
1 oz Cascade pellets @ boil & start 60" timer
.5oz @ 30"
.25oz @ 15"
.25oz @ 5"
1 oz Citra pellets @ 5"
1 oz Hallertau pellets @ 5"

that gives:
SG 1.060
FG 1.010
ABV 6.52
IBU 47.59
SRM 5.23
check mark on matches style for a Pale Ale

does that sound reasonable to salvage what I have on hand and not end up with an overly sweet beer?

 

[Yooper]

I'd move the 30 minute hops to 60 minutes, with the 1 oz cascade, as 30 minute hops aren't that useful. You don't get hops flavor and aroma, but you also don't get the addition IBUS given by a 60 minute boil.

I'd consider holding the citra for dryhopping, and add the rest of the hops at 5 minutes.

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

1) You mashed to high.
The higher you mash = more less-fermentable sugars.
2) Lots of crystal malts.

158°F is pretty high.

 

[RM-MN]

Problem: My current beer has a sickeningly sweet finish (please assume yeast was completely attenuated for purposes of discussion).
likely Cause: Brewed a Pale Ale with below grain bill. Single infusion mash at 158 degrees. Too much Crystal 10L and mash temp too high.
Reason for posting: Looking for a countermeasure to prevent my next beer from having the same problem (sweetness). Ideally, I would like my next beer to be as dry as possible while being balanced. Would like to brew next weekend - my local LHBS is very limited/small and likely to have older hops, but they are definitely available. I am not overly confident they have grains on hand but do have extract.
Background: I am a BIAB brewer without a great deal of experience to begin with and starting up again after a couple years without brewing.
Grain Bill/On hand grains (ordered this milled and combined into one bag- mistake. I can add to it or dispose it. 10 gallon brew kettle is limiting factor on addition.)
Pale Ale Malt 9 lbs
Vienna Malt 2 lbs
Crystal 10L1 lb
On hand pellet hops:
2 oz Cascade
1 oz Citra
1 oz Hallertau
Yeast:
Safale 05
Brewing notes from last batch:
6.5 gallons water (needs to be 7.5 gallons next time as final volume 1 gallon short)
heated to 170 degrees and added grains (strike water too high!!)
mashed for 60 minutes at 158 degrees
heated to 170 and held for 30 minutes
drained grain
added 1 oz hops @ boil & started 60" timer
added .5oz @ 30"
added .25oz @ 15" put chiller in kettle
added .25oz @ 5"
added an extra 1oz of citra with 5" left in boil
Chilled to 68 degrees
racked to fermenter after wort was at 68 degrees
pitched yeast at 65 degrees
set temperature to 65 degrees in fermentation chamber (this was ambient, will tape my probe to carboy for next batch)
fermented 13 days and crashed cooled to 38 degrees (will let my next batch sit longer in the fermenter as I have a hefe ready to keg this Wednesday)
kegged on 12.23.17 and set to 12psi at 38 degrees
final volume was about 1 gallons short
Initial tasting notes - not too bad. "yeasty taste". no acrid bite. drank several glasses on 12.29.17 and enjoyed. (this has changed over the last couple days as all I focus on now is the sweet finish)

Strike temp is a big problem. Too high and your mash it too hot. Use cold water or ice to cool it before you add grains.
Your 6.5 gallons would have been fine but you boiled off too much. It was just water you boiled off so add some back or deal with a smaller batch with higher OG.
If you aren't fly sparging there is no reason to heat the wort to 170 and hold it. Mashing at 158 for an hour should have converted all the starch available and denatured the enzymes too.

 

[AMessenger]

The "sickeningly sweet" and "FG of 1.010" seem to be at odds.

Have to throw it out there: maybe you've become fixated on a relatively minor flavor component and can no longer see the forest for the trees. Have you had anybody else try the beer and also deem it to be overly sweet as a sanity check?

 

[MaryB]

My ale I brew a LOT of is sweet, and it only has .75 pounds of crystal in an 11 gallon batch! Cut that crystal way back!

 

[foogod]

As others have mentioned, adjusting the mash temperature, and possibly the bittering (especially if you're using older hops), should be able to produce a decent balance with that grain bill. The amount of crystal does seem a bit high, but not enough that it can't work out if everything else is done well.

I have to ask, though: You posted the expected OG and FG based on the recipe, and you also said "assume yeast was completely attenuated", but did you actually measure your OG and FG from your previous brew session? If so, what were they? How do they compare with the expected values?

If you didn't measure them, then assuming full attenuation is really just wishful thinking. Your fermentation might have stuck towards the end and you just didn't realize it. The OG/FG can also tell you a lot about whether you're getting what you expect out of your mash or whether there's something else wrong with your process you hadn't considered.

(A lot of this stuff can be done by recipe or by feel, but IMHO the single most important thing that everyone must measure every single time is the starting and finishing gravities. Without that information there's just no point to trying to tweak your recipe or your procedures or anything else, because you'll never even know whether you actually did what you thought you were doing in the first place...)

 

[beerfactory]

The "sickeningly sweet" and "FG of 1.010" seem to be at odds.

Have to throw it out there: maybe you've become fixated on a relatively minor flavor component and can no longer see the forest for the trees. Have you had anybody else try the beer and also deem it to be overly sweet as a sanity check?

I cannot say what the FG was but I can say the beer was certainly sweet.

as to being fixated, it is certainly possible. My wife tried it and she liked it. I did drink the entire batch. Generally, I like a drier beer and will not be mashing that high or using so much 10L again...

 

[beerfactory]

Brewed on 2/3/18 (evening) and am hoping this one turns out more tasty than the last. Below are my notes from that brew session:
- made the starter on 2.2.1 @7pm (started the boil) with 3/4 cup wheat DME and 4 cups water. used 4 tablespoons of yeast slurry. left it in the saucepan and swirled. used 4 tbl harvested slurry. pitched entire starter right into boil pot (after chilling and before auto siphon).
- collected 7.5 gallons water
- ambient temp 54 degrees. took 28" heat strike to 170. stirred to cool down to 158
- immediately after mash in temp was at 150. stirred after 30" and temp at 147
- Grain bill
Pale Ale Malt 9 lbs
Vienna Malt 2 lbs
Crystal 10L1 lb
- 60" mash
1 oz Cascade pellets @ boil & start 60" timer
1oz cascade pellets @ 36"
1 oz citra pellets at flameout - steeped for 35 minutes
- my boil off must have been prodigious I have 4.5 gallons in the fermenter
- collected measured 120 cup into mash tun (brewed today and collected 8 gallons, dialed back the boil a tick and got almost 5.5 gallons in the fermenter)
- set the ferment chamber to 65 degrees and taped probe to fermenter. I need to add a heat element to the equation as after fermentation started to slow, my temp dropped into the late 50's
- fermentation was fast and furious
- kegged on 2/18/18

 

[RM-MN]

"set the ferment chamber to 65 degrees and taped probe to fermenter. I need to add a heat element to the equation as after fermentation started to slow, my temp dropped into the late 50's"

When fermentation slows you need to let the beer warm so the yeast keep working on the intermediate compounds. When the temperature fell to the 50's the yeast quit which may leave you with some interesting flavors (off flavors to most of us) and possibly sweet beer. Bringing your kegged beer to room temperature for a week or 2 may help mitigate this.

 

[ESBrewer]

Hmm you are still not measuring the gravity of the wort? Without this, you can only hope that everything goes well... Knowing the OG and FG (not estimates but measured values) would give you some insight into the mash and fermentation.

 

[kh54s10]

I hope you didn't mention a step you took in your starter procedure.

"3/4 cup wheat DME and 4 cups water. used 4 tablespoons of yeast slurry. left it in the saucepan and swirled."

I hope that you boiled the DME and water then cooled it to room temperature before adding the yeast. If not you killed all the yeast. You also don't say how long you let the starter ferment or how you aerated it. If you didn't let it go for 18-24 hours on a stirplate or 36-48 hours with intermittent shaking or something similar, you added just over 4 tablespoons of yeast slurry to your wort.

 

[mattdee1]

It's not that I personally think 1lb of C10 is problematic, but I find myself wondering why you're adding any crystal malts to the brew at all if you have such a fondness for dry beers.

You've got a potential for a nice C-hop pale ale there, but the crystal will fight the hops a bit. I can almost 100% guarantee you that you'd prefer the result of ditching the crystal altogether and just going with the 2-row and Vienna.

And unless I missed it, you didn't specify what yeast you're using... if it's S-05 as in the original attempt, you're wasting your time with the starter. Just sprinkle it right in the room temperature wort. Or, if you must, rehydrate it first... but no starter.

 

[BucksIPA]

Check your water chemistry. Some of the sweetness will fade with time.

 

[beerfactory]

It's not that I personally think 1lb of C10 is problematic, but I find myself wondering why you're adding any crystal malts to the brew at all if you have such a fondness for dry beers.

You've got a potential for a nice C-hop pale ale there, but the crystal will fight the hops a bit. I can almost 100% guarantee you that you'd prefer the result of ditching the crystal altogether and just going with the 2-row and Vienna.

And unless I missed it, you didn't specify what yeast you're using... if it's S-05 as in the original attempt, you're wasting your time with the starter. Just sprinkle it right in the room temperature wort. Or, if you must, rehydrate it first... but no starter.

appreciate this advice to skip the C10 altogether. will try that on my next beer.

I agree with time waste on the S-05 from a packet and hydrating rather than starter on a 5 gallon batch. was using harvested yeast slurry.

 

[beerfactory]

Brewed on 2/3/18 (evening) and am hoping this one turns out more tasty than the last. Below are my notes from that brew session:
- made the starter on 2.2.1 @7pm (started the boil) with 3/4 cup wheat DME and 4 cups water. used 4 tablespoons of yeast slurry. left it in the saucepan and swirled. used 4 tbl harvested slurry. pitched entire starter right into boil pot (after chilling and before auto siphon).
- collected 7.5 gallons water
- ambient temp 54 degrees. took 28" heat strike to 170. stirred to cool down to 158
- immediately after mash in temp was at 150. stirred after 30" and temp at 147
- Grain bill
Pale Ale Malt 9 lbs
Vienna Malt 2 lbs
Crystal 10L1 lb
- 60" mash
1 oz Cascade pellets @ boil & start 60" timer
1oz cascade pellets @ 36"
1 oz citra pellets at flameout - steeped for 35 minutes
- my boil off must have been prodigious I have 4.5 gallons in the fermenter
- collected measured 120 cup into mash tun (brewed today and collected 8 gallons, dialed back the boil a tick and got almost 5.5 gallons in the fermenter)
- set the ferment chamber to 65 degrees and taped probe to fermenter. I need to add a heat element to the equation as after fermentation started to slow, my temp dropped into the late 50's
- fermentation was fast and furious
- kegged on 2/18/18

this beer turned out nicely. I am not totally carbonated yet, but it is an enjoyable beer to be sure.