jsguitar
Well-Known Member
I do see your point. But, if you are "plugging in something you made", for your own sake be as safe as possible.
Yes, well that I agree with.
I do see your point. But, if you are "plugging in something you made", for your own sake be as safe as possible.
No need to be a smart ass. I'm on board with the safety aspect, but I disagree regarding the code issue in this scenario.
haha. Again?
C'mon PJ. This is all just speculative, nitpicking nonsense. Don't take offense. What you drinking tonight? I'll buy you one
This whole thread has become a personal attack on my ideas, knowlege and designs.
Done.
It's the existing wiring that is being grandfathered in & not the dryer or stove, and because so many houses are wired three wire the industry has to support the old standard with three range and dryer wire plugs.
Because of this it does not matter what's being plugged into the grandfathered wiring.
This is also why it is perfectly legal (and safe) to plug you PROPERLY WIRED brew rig into a 3 wire 240V 30 Amp (dryer) or 50 Amp (range) outlet.
If you do that and then use the connected wire to ground kettles, your system box etc. you are very clearly in violation of 250.142(B). This has been explained to you before. The fact that you don't accept it either says you don't understand, don't wish to understand or understand but think you know better. I would be concerned about publishing advice which would cause readers to violate the code and do something which is potentially unsafe especially when it is so easy to do it right.And proper wiring for one of these outlets is to connect both ground and neutral to the third (white or outside braid) wire!
The Home Depot SPA panel is just a convenient way to add a GFCI breaker into the wiring for those who want one.
You shouldn't feel that way. You should stand your ground and defend your position and be willing to concede if you're wrong. I'm not saying you are but this is an argument you have an interest in. Don't give up man.
Except that here the bible is based on sound engineering principles and decades of experience in fire prevention and safety enhancing techniques. Unlike the bible the code can be updated as the needs of the industry change and as new risks and technologies are discovered.
Also I must say I haven't seen any personal attacks (well maybe a couple of small ones). Apparently some consider questioning of their positions as personal attacks but picking up your marbles and stomping off the playground isn't a very mature attitude and is not one conducive to development of deeper understanding.
Someone complained that the code makes unreasonable demands on us when we build our own equipment. The code does not expect you to build your own equipment. It expects us to buy 'listed' equipment or equipment which has UL or other certifying laboratory seal of approval. Knowing that "The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity." I want any equipment I build to be as compliant with it as possible because there are reasons for all the provisions. This does put a heavy burden on me because the damn thing isn't exactly light reading. Grounding is a particularly difficult area because the reasons for the grounding rules aren't always obvious. As a consequence I've had professional electricians miswire panels in my house and I have also stumbled onto professional electricians' bulletin boards where essentially this same subject is debated with equal heat (and real personal attacks). Interesting.
I don't see how the NEC could possibly expect everyone to buy and read the NEC code book before they plug something in. It's just unrealistic and too far reaching IMO.
But NEC does not expect you to buy any plug-in device to any code because the NEC covers wiring. The sentince you quoted "The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity." includes that 1930's antique electric fan you may have bought off eBay, or one of the 1920's - 1940's vacuum tube radio I restore, all of which use non-polarized plugs and have exposed metal parts, and all of which carry no modern UL certification.
What's your point here...that we should continue to foster 1920's ways, despite the knowledge and insight gained in roughly the last 90 years?
You're right in the semantics sense that NEC doesn't expect you to buy any device to any given code, but that's not license to intentionally or unintentionally violate NEC when it has articles that specifically apply to cord and plug connected equipment. 250.114 is very clear in this statement and is pretty much proof positive that NEC doesn't stop at the receptacle or hard-wired installations.
Say the spa panel is mounted on the brew stand and connected to a pre-1996 50a range outlet (H-H-N). Is it possible/safe/legal to drive another grounding rod to connect the spa panel earth ground. You wouldn't be connecting the neutral and grounding wires at any point and you'd have a true 4 wire system for the spa panel.
It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but I don't remember reading a response to the idea.
Is it still considered a sub-panel if its a plug in device?
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Yes you can legally and safely run a separate ground wire to the SPA panel, and if you do, the new ground has to be completely isolated from the neutral wire coming in. But you need to look at your local code requirements for sub-panel grounding.
Try this idea: The scene is a farm with a barn on the property. The electric power is set up and delivered to the house. Power to the barn is run on overhead wires delivering 120/240V. In every case, the power is delivered as a 3 wire system and ground at the barn is established at that service panel using a grounding rod.
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