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Supplying power -- 3-prong range outlet?

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Yes. I should have written

"The side of the transformer secondary which is not connected to the outlet hot is bonded to the G wire/box."

and I edited the post to show that. The real point, which I guess wasn't that clear, is that the isolated secondary (the derived system) can be grounded to the house ground through using the house's grounding conductor and that the neutral of the derived system should be bonded to the house ground at the transformer.
 
So now that we know this isnt the best idea. What can go wrong?

While I am not tremendously knowledgeable about this, as I have previously demonstrated :), here is my take:

1) Wiring 3 wires (H-H-N) into the GFCI spa panel, bonding neutral to ground in the panel, then running four wires out (H-H-N-G) does not conform to code.

2) Making the GFCI spa panel a plug in device (not hard-wired), as a practical matter, evades problems with code since you are not changing your house wiring, so do not require an inspection.

3) What can go wrong? My assumption is the same thing that can go wrong with your dryer on a H-H-N with neutral bonded to ground on the dryer chassis, which is presumably why they changed the code to require a dedicated ground wire. Since neutral is bonded to ground in the spa panel chassis, you would not want to be standing barefoot, in a puddle, conducting a shorter path to ground, if a failure condition caused the spa panel to be carrying 120V.

Electricians, feel free to correct and clarify as necessary.
 
While I am not tremendously knowledgeable about this, as I have previously demonstrated :), here is my take:

1) Wiring 3 wires (H-H-N) into the GFCI spa panel, bonding neutral to ground in the panel, then running four wires out (H-H-N-G) does not conform to code.

2) Making the GFCI spa panel a plug in device (not hard-wired), as a practical matter, evades problems with code since you are not changing your house wiring, so do not require an inspection.

3) What can go wrong? My assumption is the same thing that can go wrong with your dryer on a H-H-N with neutral bonded to ground on the dryer chassis, which is presumably why they changed the code to require a dedicated ground wire. Since neutral is bonded to ground in the spa panel chassis, you would not want to be standing barefoot, in a puddle, conducting a shorter path to ground, if a failure condition caused the spa panel to be carrying 120V.

Electricians, feel free to correct and clarify as necessary.

Again, not an electrician, but I think that's a fairly good overall assessment. I do call into contention point #2 a bit though because NEC does have codes for cord and plug connected equipment....which dictate using equipment ground, not neutral, regarding grounding of metal parts (with a few exceptions, but not spa panels and home brew equipment). Point being, I think trying to skate out of Code on the spa panel saying it doesn't apply because it's not part of the premises is a red herring.

I think using the spa panel in in the method illustrated, aside from the benefit of GFI, pretty much violates at least a few Code articles (or whatever they're called).
 
So now that we know this isnt the best idea. What can go wrong?

Excellent question! Now we will get to the bottom of this;) There are reasons: I just need some time...

One, maybe the biggest one, I think, is as jeffmeh pointed out. If you have any derived (L1-N and or L2-N) 120V loads and neutral to the main panel is lost (or degraded) you could have up to 120V on any "grounded" metal parts.
 
I am standing in awe with all of the absolute bashing that I'm taking with my diagrams.

So be it. No more. You are all on your own from now on.

During the past few days I have received many PM's for custom diagrams (over 30). No more. I'm done with all of the critics and the BS.

I've invested a lot here.

Bide your time. I've no need any more to invest my money in my web site to host information for this community of severe critics. I'll be taking it all down and not contributing here any more. I'm really tired of all the BS.

Wishing you all the best as your attacks on me have been very successful.

By the way - All of you "code" rulers do not have a clue. Preach on with your pure BS.!

Do it your way now.
 
By the way - All of you "code" rulers do not have a clue. Preach on with your pure BS.!

Do it your way now.

Sorry you take it as a personal attack. I don't believe that's the way any of the disagreement is intended.

I have ZERO doubt on your sincerity to provide help and assistance, but people tend to gravitate to what they want to hear...generally simple and cheap vs. complex and expensive (relatively speaking), regardless of anything else.

Since you've fired both barrels by calling "BS" on the discussion of applicable code, please feel free to cite the specific NEC that condones this approach. I'm sure we're all ears, collectively speaking.

IMO, this is about shared learning and knowledge for the betterment and safety of all, not about pointing the finger at P-J. :mug:
 
I am standing in awe with all of the absolute bashing that I'm taking with my diagrams.

So be it. No more. You are all on your own from now on.

During the past few days I have received many PM's for custom diagrams (over 30). No more. I'm done with all of the critics and the BS.

I've invested a lot here.

Bide your time. I've no need any more to invest my money in my web site to host information for this community of severe critics. I'll be taking it all down and not contributing here any more. I'm really tired of all the BS.

Wishing you all the best as your attacks on me have been very successful.

By the way - All of you "code" rulers do not have a clue. Preach on with your pure BS.!

Do it your way now.

Haha. Again?
 
I agree. Although the receptacles are grandfathered for use with a dryer or range, I can’t see how that still applies when plugging in something other than those specific appliances.

It's the existing wiring that is being grandfathered in & not the dryer or stove, and because so many houses are wired three wire the industry has to support the old standard with three range and dryer wire plugs.

Because of this it does not matter what's being plugged into the grandfathered wiring. This is also why it is perfectly legal (and safe) to plug you PROPERLY WIRED brew rig into a 3 wire 240V 30 Amp (dryer) or 50 Amp (range) outlet. And proper wiring for one of these outlets is to connect both ground and neutral to the third (white or outside braid) wire!

The Home Depot SPA panel is just a convenient way to add a GFCI breaker into the wiring for those who want one.
 
I am standing in awe with all of the absolute bashing that I'm taking with my diagrams.

So be it. No more. You are all on your own from now on.

During the past few days I have received many PM's for custom diagrams (over 30). No more. I'm done with all of the critics and the BS.

I've invested a lot here.

Bide your time. I've no need any more to invest my money in my web site to host information for this community of severe critics. I'll be taking it all down and not contributing here any more. I'm really tired of all the BS.

Wishing you all the best as your attacks on me have been very successful.

By the way - All of you "code" rulers do not have a clue. Preach on with your pure BS.!

Do it your way now.

This is really a shame - you are a great contributor to this forum.
 
Again, nothing personal, but NEC 250.114 (amongst others) contradicts the 3-wire approach for using "neutral" for equipment grounding in this application.
 
One, maybe the biggest one, I think, is as jeffmeh pointed out. If you have any derived (L1-N and or L2-N) 120V loads and neutral to the main panel is lost (or degraded) you could have up to 120V on any "grounded" metal parts.

This is an excellent point and considering that we are all making up these cords and plugs ourselves, a loose neutral connection could be a possibility...

Also, if you consider the ground/neutral between the spa panel and the source carrying current, that means there is a difference in potential between points. That means that the ground at your kettle is not at the same potential as earth ground and if you get in-between, you could become the conductor. I don't have a deadly scenario for this but it's hard to argue that it's wrong.
 
Regarding code: If a dryer outlet has been and is currently being used primarily as a dryer outlet, but only later I decide to plug my homebrewed GFCI into that outlet, how does NEC code apply to me? If it does, then I think they're going too far. That's like saying plugging a lamp into an outlet is an 'installation'. I don't really buy that.
 
The point is the dryer/range is specifically mentioned as the grandfathered item, not anything else on a similar circuit. Further, that the code in this regard was changed 16 years ago speaks to thoughts about the safety of that arrangement.

Always remember that Code is about safety not basic function of the circuit. The purpose of Code is not when everything goes perfectly, but for when things go wrong.

To keep going on, provisions of the code with respect to cord and plug connected equipment exist (previous code reference given) and does not permit neutral for equipment grounding unless specifically exempted on a connected equipment level, not based on the supply circuit. Its another false illusion perpetuated that Code stops at the receptacle.
 
Regarding code: If a dryer outlet has been and is currently being used primarily as a dryer outlet, but only later I decide to plug my homebrewed GFCI into that outlet, how does NEC code apply to me? If it does, then I think they're going too far. That's like saying plugging a lamp into an outlet is an 'installation'. I don't really buy that.

You CAN wire your brew rig with jumper cables, old beer cans and duct tape. There will be no NEC police stopping over. The NEC is about safety. Knowingly not following it is your choice.
 
The point is the dryer/range is specifically mentioned as the grandfathered item, not anything else on a similar circuit. Further, that the code in this regard was changed 16 years ago speaks to thoughts about the safety of that arrangement.

Always remember that Code is about safety not basic function of the circuit. The purpose of Code is not when everything goes perfectly, but for when things go wrong.

To keep going on, provisions of the code with respect to cord and plug connected equipment exist (previous code reference given) and does not permit neutral for equipment grounding unless specifically exempted on a connected equipment level, not based on the supply circuit. Its another false illusion perpetuated that Code stops at the receptacle.

To be clear, once again, I'm not addressing safety, just code.

I don't know what you mean by 'not anything else on a similar circuit' as I was explicit by saying 'plugging something I made into my dryer outlet'. It is not an installation IMO at all, to me that is simply borrowing the outlet on occasion. I don't see how the NEC could possibly expect everyone to buy and read the NEC code book before they plug something in. It's just unrealistic and too far reaching IMO.
 
You CAN wire your brew rig with jumper cables, old beer cans and duct tape. There will be no NEC police stopping over. The NEC is about safety. Knowingly not following it is your choice.

No need to be a smart ass. I'm on board with the safety aspect, but I disagree regarding the code issue in this scenario.
 
To be clear, once again, I'm not addressing safety, just code.

I don't know what you mean by 'not anything else on a similar circuit' as I was explicit by saying 'plugging something I made into my dryer outlet'. It is not an installation IMO at all, to me that is simply borrowing the outlet on occasion. I don't see how the NEC could possibly expect everyone to buy and read the NEC code book before they plug something in. It's just unrealistic and too far reaching IMO.

I do see your point. But, if you are "plugging in something you made", for your own sake be as safe as possible.
 
This whole thread has become a personal attack on my ideas, knowlege and designs.

Done.

You shouldn't feel that way. You should stand your ground and defend your position and be willing to concede if you're wrong. I'm not saying you are but this is an argument you have an interest in. Don't give up man.
 
It's the existing wiring that is being grandfathered in & not the dryer or stove, and because so many houses are wired three wire the industry has to support the old standard with three range and dryer wire plugs.

That's true and so there is an exception for dryers and ranges but not for anything else.

Because of this it does not matter what's being plugged into the grandfathered wiring.

It does matter what is plugged in. Article 250.114 "Equipment connected by cord and plug" lists equipment which must be grounded. These are things like refrigerators, freezers, sump pumps, dish washers etc. Furthermore Article 250.142(B) says "Except as permitted by 250.30(A)(1) and 250.32(B), a grounded circuit conductor shall not be used for grounding non-current carrying metal parts of equipment on the load side of the service disconnecting means or the overcurrent devices for a separately derived system not having a main disconnecting means.

"Exception No. 1: The frames of ranges, wall-mounted cooking units and clothes dryers....

"Exception No.2: ...meter enclosures..."

This is also why it is perfectly legal (and safe) to plug you PROPERLY WIRED brew rig into a 3 wire 240V 30 Amp (dryer) or 50 Amp (range) outlet.

Referring to 250.114(4)(f) we find that "cord and plug connected appliances used in damp or wet locations or by persons standing on the ground or metal floors...." are required to be grounded. As one of these brew rigs is not a range, cooking unit, or clothes dryer it would not be legal to ground it with the neutral in an existing 3 wire H/H/N receptacle.

If you can argue that I have misquoted or misinterpreted these sections of the code or find other sections that exempt brew rigs then please site them instead of just saying that it's legal and safe without any supporting evidence.

An interesting twist here is that 250.114(4) pertains to 'other than residential occupancy'. There is no similar requirement in a residential setting (at least in the 2002 version of the code). Seems to me that's an obvious omission because there are damp locations in residences too but I don't write the code. We'll come back to this.

Article 250.118 says "The equipment grounding conductor run with or enclosing the circuit conductors shall be one or more or a combination of the following:
(1) A copper, aluminum...."

Note the key phase "conductor run with or enclosing the circuit conductors". That doesn't mean one of the circuit conductors. A circuit conductor (neutral) can only be used for grounding under the exceptions of 250.142(B).

If you ground your equipment using the neutral you are definitely illegal because you have violated 250.142(B). Again I encourage you to debate this point with supporting arguments rather than blind assertion that it is incorrect. However it seems that you could be legal if you did not ground the equipment at all as this type of equipment is not on the list of things that has to be grounded in a residential setting. Would you want to take this approach? In building such a system you are installing industrial type equipment in a damp location or at least one where liquids have the potential to be thrown about. The fact that you want GFCI protection reflects this. Given this I would think that you would want to consider the spirit of the code and realize that winning the argument is less important than saving your life.

Now why isn't it safe (or as safe as it could be) to use the neutral as the ground source? This has been explained by several people so it's probably a waste of typing to explain it again. In the event of an asymmetrical load or fault (such as contact between wort and one side of a heater) the potential of the neutral will rise above ground or it may already be above ground. In my house it is 100 mV above ground depending on what loads are on. One hundred mV is nothing to worry about when you are standing on a dry floor in rubber soled shoes and touch something connected to the neutral but under wet conditions, skin abrasion etc it could do you in. And of course we're not talking about the nominal offset, were talking about a fault situation where the potential difference is volts. Even so you would probably get away with it 999,999 times out of a million. A disaster is a coincidence of multiple events each of which is by itself very unlikely but given the obvious complexities of the code it should be clear that it there to protect you against these unlikely events.

And proper wiring for one of these outlets is to connect both ground and neutral to the third (white or outside braid) wire!
If you do that and then use the connected wire to ground kettles, your system box etc. you are very clearly in violation of 250.142(B). This has been explained to you before. The fact that you don't accept it either says you don't understand, don't wish to understand or understand but think you know better. I would be concerned about publishing advice which would cause readers to violate the code and do something which is potentially unsafe especially when it is so easy to do it right.

The Home Depot SPA panel is just a convenient way to add a GFCI breaker into the wiring for those who want one.

A spa panel is no more than a sub panel. It is equipped with separate neutral (insulated), and ground busses. They are not to be interconnected unless an isolating transformer of less than 1000 VA capacity is being used.
 
You shouldn't feel that way. You should stand your ground and defend your position and be willing to concede if you're wrong. I'm not saying you are but this is an argument you have an interest in. Don't give up man.

This thread has been taken to a level bordering some religious discussions I've witnessed. And I blame myself as much as any other contributor.

We can all continue to bash each other well into 2013 or go back to brewing beer.
 
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