Super low efficiency on my all grain system!!??

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chef1978

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So today I brewed maybock,got 8 kg of hrains,I crush them at my local storeashed in 66 C for 1 hour,mash ph 5.4 ,batch sparged ,and instead 1.057 as predicted by beer smit,I got 1.051!! Big problem,so the calculated efficiency was 48,5%,usually I get around 60%which I find low anyways,but something I can live with.can it really be badly crushed grains?? I'll try to post some pictures after draining it,it's true,I see bit of uncrushed grains,but this really suck.what do you guys think?
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i went from 60's efficiency to 80's when i learned to sparge slowly...but i don't batch sparge, i just use a colander and pour water into the tun slowly as it drains very slowly, probably takes me about 90mins to do a sparge....

and i second @Blazinlow86 , that looks like a really course crush! think there's a saying "Crush till your scared!"....i crush mine to almost flour, and don't get stuck sparges...
 
Get your own mill, run the grain through twice, put a BIAB bag in your mash tun and simply pull up on the bag if you get a stuck sparge.
Beer smith numbers get you close, but you may have to make adjustments based on your equipment and techniques.
 
Thanks guys,the sparge will definitely help,I'm getting grain mill next.
 
Efficiency is a slippery number... If any bit of data is inaccurate, the calculation off can be way off... BrewSmith has lots of detailed data entries, searching through all the tabs in the equipment profile, as well as the brew session, can reveal some interesting gaps!!
 
If your grain absorbtion and boil-off rate is incorrect in the calculator, you might just have too much water in there. My first few AG batches were having me use almost 1.5 gallons more than I needed to.
 
It appears that you have the pH and temperature issues effectively covered for decent efficiency, but your efficiency should improve if you stir more often during the mash. And perhaps the crush needs to be a tad finer also, but you don't want to end up with a stuck sparge. 0.035" has never given me a stuck sparge.
 
If your grain absorbtion and boil-off rate is incorrect in the calculator, you might just have too much water in there. My first few AG batches were having me use almost 1.5 gallons more than I needed to.
It seems I hit the volumes ok,but it is good point
 
The gap is definitely something I can't control sinds the store does it for me.
 
Yes crush is not good. Efficiency doesn’t carry much weight with me. My best beers came at around 75%. I worked to get 85-88% and my beers fell off. They lacked that fullness and flavor. Maybe I’m nuts, but I think it is true.
Be consistent with your process. Make sure all your losses are accounted for. Input them and refine. Mill is one of the best purchases I’ve ever made. Keep Rock’n!
 
It has been noted many times in the past that you can't taste efficiency.

You could always keep some DME on hand and toss it in if a specific OG is required and you miss it.
 
maybe not efficiency, but you can taste and feel attenuation....

so the mash isn't all unimportant
 
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I agree the mash is definitely not unimportant. Just efficiency is as long as its consistent. Cheers
 
Nice! I've been geeking out for the last few days on doing all my calculations by hand, so this thread is perfect right now! :/) ....The significance of efficiency is an interesting debate.. But nonetheless, if we're using software, like BeerSmith, to design our recipes and give us our volumes, than the data matters... Accounting for loss rates, dead space, etc. is calculating efficiency.
 
Yes crush is not good. Efficiency doesn’t carry much weight with me. My best beers came at around 75%. I worked to get 85-88% and my beers fell off. They lacked that fullness and flavor. Maybe I’m nuts, but I think it is true.
Be consistent with your process. Make sure all your losses are accounted for. Input them and refine. Mill is one of the best purchases I’ve ever made. Keep Rock’n!
Thank a lot man,I really appreciate your input,cheers
 
Yes crush is not good. Efficiency doesn’t carry much weight with me. My best beers came at around 75%. I worked to get 85-88% and my beers fell off. They lacked that fullness and flavor. Maybe I’m nuts, but I think it is true.
Be consistent with your process. Make sure all your losses are accounted for. Input them and refine. Mill is one of the best purchases I’ve ever made. Keep Rock’n!

I'm VERY curious :/) ... As you increased your efficiencies, were you still hitting all of your target gravities? ...how did you go about adjusting your grain bill to account for the higher percentages?
 
I'm VERY curious :/) ... As you increased your efficiencies, were you still hitting all of your target gravities? ...how did you go about adjusting your grain bill to account for the higher percentages?
It can be adjusted in most software. Beersmith had a box you can just type in what efficiency your getting. Obviously you'd get higher target gravity until you compensate for the new efficiency. Cheers
 
Great! compare your FG with the predicted one BeerSmith gave you...i'd be curious, just how little/much efficiency has an effect on attenuation...
 
It can be adjusted in most software. Beersmith had a box you can just type in what efficiency your getting. Obviously you'd get higher target gravity until you compensate for the new efficiency. Cheers

Hmm.. and after adjusting the recipe, you were not satisfied with the results?

[emoji482]
 
Yes crush is not good. Efficiency doesn’t carry much weight with me. My best beers came at around 75%. I worked to get 85-88% and my beers fell off. They lacked that fullness and flavor. Maybe I’m nuts, but I think it is true.
Be consistent with your process. Make sure all your losses are accounted for. Input them and refine. Mill is one of the best purchases I’ve ever made. Keep Rock’n!

I don’t think you’re nuts. Here is a quote from George Fix ( http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/977.html#977-3 ) “I have found that to get a very high malt flavor the sparge must be omitted as well. This is an expensive way to brew since the amount of grains needed must be increased by a factor ~4/3. Nevertheless, some of the world's great ales and lagers have been brewed this way, and I have found it works in homebrewing as well for special beers. Clearly this is not the way to brew our standard beers.”
 
There's a spec sheet that comes with each bag of malt and right near the top of the sheet, usually, underneath color and gravity per pound is extract efficiency, brewers grade malt extract efficiency is 83%.
A spec sheet exists because malt is very inconsistent and because it's inconsistent it's tested and the test results are list on the sheet. The sheet is used by a brewer to determine if the malt is suitable for making ale and lager (under modified, low protein malt, decoction method), or more suitable for making whiskey (high modified, high protein malt, single infusion method).

An expensive apparatus is used to determine efficiency. The apparatus, also, determines attenuation and ABV. A formula hooked to a couple of hydrometer readings is not accurate. I find it hard to believe that a computer generated group of numbers are accurate time after time due to the inconsistency of malt. Same thing with recipes.
Malt high in percentage of protein, slack malt and poor crush are responsible for low efficiency. Percentage of protein is listed on a spec sheet. Modification (Kolbach, SNR) is listed on the sheet.
When mash is rested at 66C, Alpha produces mostly glucose, and some sweet tasting, non-fermenting sugar from simple starch, amylose. Yeast should have ripped through the sugar during primary fermentation cranking out alcohol, FG should have dropped very close to expected FG after 10 days.
When a recipe for ale and lager recommends; high modified malt, single infusion, primary fermentation, no secondary fermentation and sugar priming or injecting CO2 for carbonation, aged/lagered for eight to 10 weeks, the beer will be similar to Prohibition style beer.
To produce ale and lager a Beta rest is needed. During a Beta rest conversion occurs, Beta amylase converts glucose into maltose and maltotriose which are complex types of sugar. Yeast works well with glucose, not so well with complex sugar, for that reason secondary fermentation is needed.
Check out recipes on Weyermann Malt website.
 
wait a sec, i just bought a bag of malt i didn't get a spec sheet with it? lol, am i getting cheated?

Ask the folks at the shop for a copy, they should have it on hand... Once I got neck deep in the calculations, I realized how unique each and every brew is...each brew becomes a challenge...and I get to drink the results! [emoji482]
 
I don’t think you’re nuts. Here is a quote from George Fix ( http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/977.html#977-3 ) “I have found that to get a very high malt flavor the sparge must be omitted as well. This is an expensive way to brew since the amount of grains needed must be increased by a factor ~4/3. Nevertheless, some of the world's great ales and lagers have been brewed this way, and I have found it works in homebrewing as well for special beers. Clearly this is not the way to brew our standard beers.”

Thanks for the link, great read. Even though I’ve always been a fly sparger, I’m considering no sparge. It does have O2 benefits as well. Maybe that is part of the malt flavor boost. Not sure where to start my efficiency target for no sparge. I was thinking starting at 60%. I usually do 12.5 gallon batches, so 60% maybe to high. I did pay attention to my ph and gravity at the end of my fly sparge. I think that is probably where I feel I lost “the Malt” in beers as efficiency increased. Thanks again
 
I'm VERY curious :/) ... As you increased your efficiencies, were you still hitting all of your target gravities? ...how did you go about adjusting your grain bill to account for the higher percentages?

I was hitting my numbers after my initial over runs. I use BS and scaled my recipes to keep my percentages the same. The beers were still good, just lost some flavor.
 
Mill gap 0.035 ,my last batch the first run through looked just like yours so I milled twice it was about the size of grits . Not sure of my efficiency but my OG for my pre-boil volume was spot on the predicted so I'm guessing they went together.
 
I worked to get 85-88% and my beers fell off. They lacked that fullness and flavor. Maybe I’m nuts, but I think it is true.
I have noticed this too, I worked hard to up my efficiency, but doing so seemed to make my beer lose some of the dimension of flavour. I now keep my efficiency at 75%, as this seems to me to be the best balance of efficiency and taste.
 
Efficiency is the least important thing in all homebrew imho. It's consistency that counts. Cheers

not unless your trying to make profit...and worried about losing customers...Are you homebrewing to practice to be a Brewpub, or are you just trying to make a decent alcoholic beverage for personal consumption...
 
not unless your trying to make profit...and worried about losing customers...Are you homebrewing to practice to be a Brewpub, or are you just trying to make a decent alcoholic beverage for personal consumption...
I'd still say efficiency is less important than making consistent repeatable product even more so in a pro environment. Of course this being a HOMEBREW forum making a profit and losing customers is about as relevent as what I had for lunch... I doubt the op is going to be opening a brewpub with his 5 gallon system so I don't think the efficiency of his current system would help with that either. Cheers
 
I'd still say efficiency is less important than making consistent repeatable product even more so in a pro environment. Of course this being a HOMEBREW forum making a profit and losing customers is about as relevent as what I had for lunch... I doubt the op is going to be opening a brewpub with his 5 gallon system so I don't think the efficiency of his current system would help with that either. Cheers

lol, you never know, he might open up a food truck though!
 
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