Sugar = Sugar = Sugar?

[Got Trub?]

I think they care. If they don't have to produce/secrete an enzyme to metabolize their food, then that's all the less energy they have to expend.

The other thing I'm curious about is if yeast produce different fermentation biproducts (esters, etc.) or in different quantities when fermenting different sugars. If so, this could result in a flavor difference.

Maybe if you are brewing at extremes of alcohol or percentage of sugar as a proportion of your recipe but otherwise I don't think they would care or we would notice any difference. I have not seen any information that would suggest that invert is better, only suggestions that "theoretically" it is easier on the yeast. According to Brew Like a Monk many Belgian breweries are using sucrose as their sugar adjunct.

GT

 

[Mermaid]

As I understand it, the function of sugar as an adjunct in a Tripel would be to give the yeast something to eat, while producing a nice dry finish.

Dark candi sugar /candi syrup adds color as well as fermentables.

From what I've read, your milage may vary. Experiment and see what works for you. As I understand it, some of the Belgian breweries have already switched from "candi sugar" to regular old "sugar".

For darker beers (belgian strong dark / dubbels/quads) the dark candi syrup is used as it adds a nice flavor as well as color.

 

[JuanMoore]

Maybe if you are brewing at extremes of alcohol or percentage of sugar as a proportion of your recipe but otherwise I don't think they would care or we would notice any difference. I have not seen any information that would suggest that invert is better, only suggestions that "theoretically" it is easier on the yeast. According to Brew Like a Monk many Belgian breweries are using sucrose as their sugar adjunct.

GT

Using invert sugar instead of sucrose will get you a few extra points of attenuation for super high gravity brews, but will otherwise be an unappreciable difference. With todays highly modified malts, highly developed yeasts, and modern brewing techniques, there are very few instances that IMO would call for clear candi sugar. The darker candi sugars on the other hand have a definite use for their unique flavor contributions.

 

[Beernik]

Well damn I better throwout the triple I brewed thursday

It has 2.5lbs per 5.5gal, bet its all nasty & cidery

good grief talk about old wives tales that never die

Oh I use beet sugar only as a `tip of the hat to the belgian brewers, taste the same as table sugar/corn sugar.

Seriously, you can't taste the difference between a pure cane sugar cube and a piece of beet sugar hard candy?

If that's so, I wouldn't expect your tastebud to have a low threshold for cider either.

I've tasted cidery fermentation. I don't need to do that again.

 

[pdxal]

Maybe if you are brewing at extremes of alcohol or percentage of sugar as a proportion of your recipe but otherwise I don't think they would care or we would notice any difference. I have not seen any information that would suggest that invert is better, only suggestions that "theoretically" it is easier on the yeast. According to Brew Like a Monk many Belgian breweries are using sucrose as their sugar adjunct.

GT

+1.
The Belgians are basically using table sugar in their beers, why not us homebrewers? The darker sugars most certainly add flavors, but for tripels and the like, table sugar should be fine. Has worked for me.
I believe there was a symposium and taste test on this at the AHA conference. On another board it was mentioned that there was no significant difference for tasters (including BJCP judges) between different sugars.

 

[jalgayer]

Yeah. The more I read and the more I think about it, it would seem that no matter what sugar you add it really shouldn't make a difference.

After all, it is essentially all fermented out anyway.

I would think that the ratio of the sugar to the other ferment-ables would be the big issue.

 

[pjj2ba]

I you add refined sucrose, it doesn't matter what the original source is. But, it will be different if you use invert sugar (mix of fructose and glucose), or corn sugar (glucose), or a caramelized sugar. Each of these will lead to a different ester profile in the finished beer. The was a nice article in a recent Zymurgy on a mash profile to increase the glucose levels in wort without adding it (against German purity laws) in order to enhance banana flavors.

If one is getting a cidery taste in a beer that has sugar added to in, this is most likely to the yeast being unhappy about something OTHER than the sucrose (ie too warm, late O2 exposure, infection, etc.)

 

[Malticulous]

I think I can taste a difference between cane and beet sugar and my wife (a Chef) agrees with me. Recipies with C&H brand cane sugar taste a little bit sweeter than with the generic beet sugar. It's a lot like Mexican Coke vs. American Coke. Although I do prefer Mexican Coke I like the cheap beet sugar in baked goods. As for in beer I can't tell any difference.

 

[BargainFittings]

+1.
The Belgians are basically using table sugar in their beers, why not us homebrewers? The darker sugars most certainly add flavors, but for tripels and the like, table sugar should be fine. Has worked for me.
I believe there was a symposium and taste test on this at the AHA conference. On another board it was mentioned that there was no significant difference for tasters (including BJCP judges) between different sugars.

I attended that seminar and Gordon Strong along with a couple other judges did in fact find differences in the beer.

There were 5 different beers with only the sugar addition being different. Made with the same base wort and the sugar was added to the primary.

Each was different. The table sugar addition was the lowest scored both by the judges and by a panel of judging that had been done in a previous panel.

I personally preferred the Belgian Candi addition and the raw sugar one. The table sugar one was not bad but lacked something.

 

[King of Cascade]

Cane sugar is a tropical plant and was not traditionally available to Belgian brewers. That is why you see recipes for Belgian beers with beet sugar. If you are going for a traditional triple try to find the beet sugar then invert it your self with the process stated in this thread. I do have to agree that table sugar from cane and beets are very close in flavor and would be difficult to tell the difference. I also recommend the suggestion from an earlier post to add the sugar a few days after fermentation starts. You will absolutely get better attenuation.
BTW…the cidery thing could happen but not so much on big beers.

 

[Houblon]

Seriously, you can't taste the difference between a pure cane sugar cube and a piece of beet sugar hard candy?

First the Belgian Brewers Do Not Use hard candy, they use sacks of powder or cans of liquid sugar(s) .

A Belgian supplier of sugar(s)

BELGOSUC SUGAR SPECIALITIES
http://www.belgosuc.be/EN/productgamma.asp

If that's so, I wouldn't expect your tastebud to have a low threshold for cider either.

Now your just being a dick

I've tasted cidery fermentation. I don't need to do that again.

You screwed up and need to blame something, fine but it wasn't the sugar.

 

[Scimmia]

It's a lot like Mexican Coke vs. American Coke.

Completely different issue. With this comparison, you're talking about sucrose vs high fructose corn syrup. Beet vs cane sugar is sucrose vs sucrose.

 

[King of Cascade]

First the Belgian Brewers Do Not Use hard candy, they use sacks of powder or cans of liquid sugar(s) .

A Belgian supplier of sugar(s)

BELGOSUC SUGAR SPECIALITIES
http://www.belgosuc.be/EN/productgamma.asp



Now your just being a dick


You screwed up and need to blame something, fine but it wasn't the sugar.

Not cool. We are talking about sugar not name calling

 

[Houblon]

Not cool. We are talking about sugar not name calling

Just returning his attitude. I think my tastebuds are rather well tuned to beer(s)especially belgian beers giving that I take 2 trips/yr to Belgium just to visit breweries & sample beer.

see below

Seriously, you can't taste the difference between a pure cane sugar cube and a piece of beet sugar hard candy?

If that's so, I wouldn't expect your tastebud to have a low threshold for cider either.

 

[a10t2]

Table sugar can go cidery if more than a pound is used per 5 gallons. Corn sugar does the same thing in the 1 to 2 pounds per 5 gallon range.

Don't tell the National-ranked BJCP judges who tasted my tripel with 2.5 lb of table sugar in 5.5 gal. They might take away my runner-up Best of Show.

 

[a10t2]

In all seriousness, if anyone wants to take the Pepsi challenge on cane vs beet sugar, PM me and I'll send you three separate sets of three samples each, and you can do blind triangle tests.

 

[pdxal]

I attended that seminar and Gordon Strong along with a couple other judges did in fact find differences in the beer.

There were 5 different beers with only the sugar addition being different. Made with the same base wort and the sugar was added to the primary.

Each was different. The table sugar addition was the lowest scored both by the judges and by a panel of judging that had been done in a previous panel.

I personally preferred the Belgian Candi addition and the raw sugar one. The table sugar one was not bad but lacked something.

Sorry, I forgot that critical point. They added the sugar AFTER the boil, to the primary.
Thanks for the response and information.
I'd still like to see a taste comparison, then, with the same beer made with different sugars added to the boil, like many people do. Then you'd have at least another data point and comparison of a common technique. I've heard that the wort Ph/heat would invert at least some of the sugar as well.

 

[BargainFittings]

I'm racking my brain trying to remember exactly what he did to add to the primary.

I believe he boiled it in enough water and then cooled it to add to the primary.

Too many samples that weekend!

 

[King of Cascade]

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/4805/Sugars_of_Tripel-Ted_Hausotter.pdf

Check out slide 21

 

[BargainFittings]

Thanks.

So they added to a quart and then pitched in primary when the ferment slows.

It is interesting that the brown sugar one went to 2nd place after 5 months having been last place before that.

 

[King of Cascade]

Thanks.

So they added to a quart and then pitched in primary when the ferment slows.

It is interesting that the brown sugar one went to 2nd place after 5 months having been last place before that.

It does seem a bit odd that the brown sugar and corn sugar change places in month 5 after being fairly consistent.

But I was actually referring to slide 21 that said, “Cider flavors are part of Sucrose’s profile but are yeast strain dependant!” There was some discussion that this is a wives tale and it might be at some levels but it still needs to be considered. Its kind of like HSA being a myth or not possible on the homebrew scale but I avoid splashing my wort or mash around just in case.

 

[BargainFittings]

It does seem a bit odd that the brown sugar and corn sugar change places in month 5 after being fairly consistent.

But I was actually referring to slide 21 that said, “Cider flavors are part of Sucrose’s profile but are yeast strain dependant!” There was some discussion that this is a wives tale and it might be at some levels but it still needs to be considered. Its kind of like HSA being a myth or not possible on the homebrew scale but I avoid splashing my wort or mash around just in case.

It would be nice to have a list of yeast with this trait of throwing cider character.

 

[a10t2]

If I'm reading that correctly, they added a pound of sucrose, in a quart of water, to 5 gal of 1.009 beer, and the resulting gravity was 1.0075. That would mean that not all the sugar fermented. The FG should be 1.0051.

So maybe the measurements were wrong, but it certainly makes me wonder.

 

[matiasek]

I was under the impression that corn sugar was glucose and beet sugar (often table sugar) is sucrose, a disaccharide. I do agree with many others that in through the eyes of a yeast both are very "simple" with respect to a normal wort and readily (preferentially) degraded.

I will stay away from the taste test debate.

 

[Biergarden]

Is there anyone who's use un-bleached sugars? I mean raw sugar.