Stuck fermentation or nothing to worry about (picture)

[psu12288]

My friends and I just brewed a Chocolate Peanut Butter Milkshake Porter and we felt like everything went really well. Our OG was 1.069 and we pitched with a 1 liter yeast starter of WLP005 British Ale. We haven't had a very active fermentation and we just popped the lid today and found this:

This is our 3rd beer and all have had fermentation issues. At this point I'm leading towards under oxygen aeration since we don't use an oxygen wand.
My question at this point is, can and should we just re-pitch more yeast? We haven't taken a gravity reading yet since we have to work. I appreciate any feedback.

 

[bigdawg86]

How long has it been? Extract or all grain?

 

[psu12288]

BIAB and it’s been 6 days. Sorry, should’ve lead with that

 

[Mothman]

From all the debris on the side of the bucket, it appears like SOMETHING has happened in there in terms of active fermentation. Maybe you just missed witnessing it?

 

[psu12288]

It’s possible but I believe a lot of that was from shaking the bucket initially to try to aerate.

 

[ESBrewer]

You need to measure and maybe even taste it. The only way to know.

 

[psu12288]

We won’t be able to measure until Tuesday so I’ll let you guys know what it is. Thanks

 

[psu12288]

So we took another gravity reading. OG was 1.069 and after 8 days in the primary we were only at 1.043. I repitched with a packet of S-04.

 

[RM-MN]

Tell us about the first yeast you pitched and the temperature that you had during the first 5 days. Both of those will be important in diagnosing what happened. Also we need to know whether you used a hydrometer or refractometer to take gravity readings.

 

[psu12288]

We first pitched with White Labs 005 British Ale with a 1000 ml starter. I think a major issue was we were hovering right around 65 degrees and that strain is 65-70 degrees. We’re still at 65-66. And we used a hydrometer. The recipe included 9 ounces of lactose so I realize I won’t have a low FG but the abv should still be there.

 

[AJinJacksonville]

I don't think the 65 would be more of an issue than if you pitched it when it was in the range of 90. Is it fermenting in the dark, in a basement, garage floor, pantry, fermentation chamber, etc? And how are you determining the temperature of it? The thermometer sticker on the bucket?
Cheers.

 

[psu12288]

It’s in an unused foyer. Sounds strange but it was the warmest place. The lights are never turned on there and it’s in a bucket so it receives less light than a carboy would. And we have a stand-alone thermometer sitting on the lid of the bucket.

Even now with the S-04 there’s no airlock activity after 2 days. We have weights on the lid but I suppose it could still be escaping through the seal

 

[ESBrewer]

Hmm so one more lactose stout/porter that does not ferment...actually there is a whole bunch of these threads on the homebrewing forums. The amount of lactose will contribute maybe 0.005 to the final gravity as yeast does not ferment lactose. So lactose does not contribute to abv either. It would be nice to see the whole recipe. I think there may be some more factors that contribute to the low fermentability of the wort. Either the ingredients or their interactions during mash. The milling and coarseness of the base malt, amount of unmalted flakes etc.

 

[PADave]

At this point I'm leading towards under oxygen aeration since we don't use an oxygen wand.

You can rule this out for sure. Millions of beers have been brewed without an oxygen wand. Yes it can help, but surely not necessary to have fermentation.

 

[psu12288]

I understand the lactose won’t ferment but based off my preboil gravity I think we had a pretty good efficiency so there should be plenty of fermentables. I don’t have the recipe with me so when I have access to it I’ll post it.

 

[ESBrewer]

Yes, but several compounds will affect the gravity (efficiency). Not all of these compounds are fermentables. I've seen a couple of threads where the only way to get it further was to add amylase indicating that there were just too much dextrins & other high molecular weight stuff, although the efficiency was great. Not saying that this is necessarily the case here, but it is possible.

 

[RM-MN]

We first pitched with White Labs 005 British Ale with a 1000 ml starter. I think a major issue was we were hovering right around 65 degrees and that strain is 65-70 degrees. We’re still at 65-66. And we used a hydrometer. The recipe included 9 ounces of lactose so I realize I won’t have a low FG but the abv should still be there.

It’s in an unused foyer. Sounds strange but it was the warmest place. The lights are never turned on there and it’s in a bucket so it receives less light than a carboy would. And we have a stand-alone thermometer sitting on the lid of the bucket.

Even now with the S-04 there’s no airlock activity after 2 days. We have weights on the lid but I suppose it could still be escaping through the seal

Put the first two highlighted items together. You started the ferment at the low end of the range. Good! But your thermometer is on the top of the fermenter so it could easily be cooler at the bottom where the beer is. I think you need to warm this beer up. If you have a tub that will hold water, put some warm (mid 80's) water in it and set the bucket in there. That may raise the beer temp enough to get the yeast working again.

The third highlighted item is no surprise. Yeast only produce CO2 in the early stages of fermentation. Your beer is beyond that now and you won't see more bubbling unless you add more sugars. Here's some info on how your yeast works. http://www.brewgeeks.com/the-life-cycle-of-yeast.html

 

[psu12288]

Put the first two highlighted items together. You started the ferment at the low end of the range. Good! But your thermometer is on the top of the fermenter so it could easily be cooler at the bottom where the beer is. I think you need to warm this beer up. If you have a tub that will hold water, put some warm (mid 80's) water in it and set the bucket in there. That may raise the beer temp enough to get the yeast working again.

The third highlighted item is no surprise. Yeast only produce CO2 in the early stages of fermentation. Your beer is beyond that now and you won't see more bubbling unless you add more sugars. Here's some info on how your yeast works. http://www.brewgeeks.com/the-life-cycle-of-yeast.html

Very informative, thank you! I hadn’t considered the beer sitting on cold tile. I’ll make sure we get it off the ground as soon as possible.

 

[mongoose33]

A few items for your next brew (people have done a nice job above making suggestions):

1. It seems as if you're still new to brewing. IMO, simplifying while you're new is better than trying more complicated recipes and processes. Once you've got that down, then move to more complicated things.

2. Aerate your wort before pitching. Splash it into the bucket, shake the bucket, do something to get air in there. Your yeast will thank you for it.

3. Control fermentation temp. This is often noted as the most important improvement home brewers make in their processes. Fermenting at 65 was not the problem--the yeast is exothermic, i.e., they produce heat when working actively, so your wort was likely higher. Further, those are recommended ranges; the yeast doesn't just stop if you hit 64. The exothermic action of yeast can add 5-10 degrees above what ambient temp is.

4. Consider getting a different fermenter. Lots of people use buckets successfully, but if I had to guess, I'd guess that the number one complaint of new brewers is "my airlock isn't bubbling." And we find that they are using buckets which don't seal, and they're not sure what's going on.

Consider buying something like a Fermonster fermenter from MoreBeer; it's clear, so you can see what's going on and not exposing the beer needlessly to oxygen after fermentation is done, it'll seal so the airlock will work, and you'll like it.

 

[psu12288]

A few items for your next brew (people have done a nice job above making suggestions):

1. It seems as if you're still new to brewing. IMO, simplifying while you're new is better than trying more complicated recipes and processes. Once you've got that down, then move to more complicated things.

2. Aerate your wort before pitching. Splash it into the bucket, shake the bucket, do something to get air in there. Your yeast will thank you for it.

3. Control fermentation temp. This is often noted as the most important improvement home brewers make in their processes. Fermenting at 65 was not the problem--the yeast is exothermic, i.e., they produce heat when working actively, so your wort was likely higher. Further, those are recommended ranges; the yeast doesn't just stop if you hit 64. The exothermic action of yeast can add 5-10 degrees above what ambient temp is.

4. Consider getting a different fermenter. Lots of people use buckets successfully, but if I had to guess, I'd guess that the number one complaint of new brewers is "my airlock isn't bubbling." And we find that they are using buckets which don't seal, and they're not sure what's going on.

Consider buying something like a Fermonster fermenter from MoreBeer; it's clear, so you can see what's going on and not exposing the beer needlessly to oxygen after fermentation is done, it'll seal so the airlock will work, and you'll like it.

That answers some questions, thank you! And you’re right, we were a little excited and jumped in the deep end. Our next beer will be simpler and a recipe we know works. However I will still post our recipe when I get home.

 

[BrianDorry55]

I’d be shocked if the temperature was any issue. I regularly ferment at the low end of recommended fermentation temp and lower in some cases. Did your starter have an active fermentation that you noticed? Was your starter exposed to any conditions that may have damaged some of the yeast? Was it exposed to light for an extended period?

 

[psu12288]

I’d be shocked if the temperature was any issue. I regularly ferment at the low end of recommended fermentation temp and lower in some cases. Did your starter have an active fermentation that you noticed? Was your starter exposed to any conditions that may have damaged some of the yeast? Was it exposed to light for an extended period?

I was a little concerned about the starter. It said to boil 650 ml of water with the DME. After a slow roll boil for 15 minutes I got 450 ml, so the starter looked small. Initially it took off and looked good over night. I then transported it to where we were brewing and chilled it in the fridge for two hours to let the yeast drop out. I decanted it and let the temp rise for about an hour. 10 minutes before we pitched it I added about 500 ml of our wort at 68 degrees and stirred it in the flask. It was only exposed to light for about 3 and a half hours over the house of 18 hours. I’m sure I did something wrong..

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Maybe WLP005 is nut intolerant.....

Seriously, I'd agree with above posts that the cold floor is the culprit. English yeasts are known for going to sleep when it gets cold and not wanting to wake up again.

 

[psu12288]

Hmm so one more lactose stout/porter that does not ferment...actually there is a whole bunch of these threads on the homebrewing forums. The amount of lactose will contribute maybe 0.005 to the final gravity as yeast does not ferment lactose. So lactose does not contribute to abv either. It would be nice to see the whole recipe. I think there may be some more factors that contribute to the low fermentability of the wort. Either the ingredients or their interactions during mash. The milling and coarseness of the base malt, amount of unmalted flakes etc.

Here’s the recipe:

Fermentables-
8 lbs rahr 2 row
2 lbs caramel 10
2 lbs caramel 60
1 lbs roasted barley
.8 lbs chocolate 350

Adjuncts-
.7 lbs flaked Barley
.5 lbs flaked oats
9 oz lactose (5 minute boil)
19.5 oz pb2 (5 minute boil)

Hops-
.75 oz Northern Brewer (60 minute boil)
1 oz Kent Golding (5 minutes boil)

Yeast-
WLP005 British Ale w/ 1000 ml starter

This was a BIAB beer.

We mashed at 150 for 60 minutes and lost 1 degree over that time. We did a batch sparse with 3.25 gallons of 165 degree water for higher efficiency. At 5.9 gallons we had a preboil gravity of 1.053. After a 60 minute boil we wound up with 5.25 gallons (maybe our boil should’ve been more aggressive?) At 8 minutes we took our approximately a half gallon of wort and added the PB2 and lactose and blended it with a sanitized paint mixer and drill. We added that back in for 5 more minutes. Our OG came in at 1.069. And yes, we used a correction chart for all gravity readings since our hydrometer is calibrated for 60 degrees.

As stated, it sat for a week and came in at 1.043 (3.41% abv). We repitched with 11.5 grams of S-04 and raised it off the floor.

We’re going to add 4 oz of cocoa nibs, soaked in a small amount of neutral vodka for 3 days, as well as 6.5 more oz of PB2 mixed with boiled and cooled water into the secondary for two additional weeks.

And another thing about the yeast starter is that when we pulled it out of the fridge to decant and let warm, it was probably only about 65 in the kitchen and it sat on a cool granite countertop. When I swirled it to mixed it with the added wort, it didn’t mix well..it was kinda clumped together.

 

[ESBrewer]

Thanks. The fraction of base malt is <60% so it is the absolute minimum amount you should use. Caramels, roasted barley, chocolate malt, flaked barley and flaked oats all contain starchy compounds but no diastatic power = enzymatic activity so those must be converted by the enzymes from the base malt in order to obtain a high degree of fermentability, and then there's the lactose. Plus special malts always have a certain amount of nonfermentable, caramellized sugars. It is probably doable, but everything needs to be executed perfectly so it may not be the easiest recipe as someone already noticed. The temperature may be a factor as well if it really has cooled down significantly during the fermentation that happened (fermentation produces heat, though so the floor should have been very cold I think).

 

[psu12288]

Thanks. The fraction of base malt is <60% so it is the absolute minimum amount you should use (caramels, roasted barley, chocolate malt, flaked barley and flaked oats all contain starchy compounds but no diastatic power = enzymatic activity so those must be converted by the enzymes from the base malt in order to obtain a high degree of fermentability, and then there's the lactose). It is probably doable, but everything needs to be executed perfectly so it may not be the easiest recipe as someone already noticed. The temperature may be a factor as well if it really has cooled down significantly during the fermentation that happened (fermentation produces heat, though so the floor should have been very cold I think).

I wasn’t aware of that. I think the next one will be from a recipe we know will work until we learn a little more. Thank you!

 

[PADave]

Are you going to bottle or keg? I'd be very leery of putting a 1.043 beer into a bottle, setting yourself for bombs. How does it taste? Like others have said, learn to make good simple beers before trying to do too much.

 

[kh54s10]

So it has now been about 12 days at the low end of the yeast's temperature range. I would warm it up a couple degrees above the upper end of the published range and let it go another week. (beer temperature, not the temperature on the top of the bucket!)

I never even open a fermenter on a beer like that before day 14. Heavy dark beers often take longer to ferment than light beers.

I bet it will finish with warmer temperature and more time.

 

[eetu]

I'm also leaning towards the mash being the issue. Probably just low conversion and not enough fermentables in the wort. 60min isn't that long at 150 and as mentioned by ESBrewer, the percentage of base malt is rather low in your grain bill.

Not enough enzymic activity to do the conversion in the given time. The lower the temperature the longer you need to mash.

I would have mashed at around 154 and still 60min is borderline with that grain bill.

Don't think temperature is the issue. It clearly did ferment and unless temp dropped during the fermentation I don't see why it would just stop in the middle of active fermentation.

 

[chickypad]

I was a little concerned about the starter. It said to boil 650 ml of water with the DME. After a slow roll boil for 15 minutes I got 450 ml, so the starter looked small. Initially it took off and looked good over night. I then transported it to where we were brewing and chilled it in the fridge for two hours to let the yeast drop out. I decanted it and let the temp rise for about an hour. 10 minutes before we pitched it I added about 500 ml of our wort at 68 degrees and stirred it in the flask. It was only exposed to light for about 3 and a half hours over the house of 18 hours. I’m sure I did something wrong..

That is not a liter starter, it is a 450 ml starter. The 500 ml of wort you added just before pitching doesn't count. Did you put the full 100g of DME in that? If so your starter wort was about 1.082 - not a great way to grow yeast. You want to be more in the 1.035-1.040 range. So sounds like a number of issues - probably stressed and/or underpitched yeast, temps maybe a little low to finish, poor efficiency (I think in the 50's eyeballing your pre-boil numbers) with a large amount of specialty grains that contribute unfermentables.

For a starter you really don't need to boil it down like that, just bring to a boil and it should be enough to kill off any baddies. You want 1g of DME per 10 ml of liquid. If you don't have a stir plate make sure to swirl/shake as frequently as you can while it's fermenting out. The rest of your process for chilling and decanting sounds okay, some yeast especially English strains can be chunky, as long as you get it all in the fermenter it should be okay if the other conditions are good.

 

[chickypad]

I’d be shocked if the temperature was any issue. I regularly ferment at the low end of recommended fermentation temp and lower in some cases. Did your starter have an active fermentation that you noticed? Was your starter exposed to any conditions that may have damaged some of the yeast? Was it exposed to light for an extended period?

What is the concern here? All my starters ferment on the countertop in the light. The only concern I am aware of is a beer with hops getting light struck, which shouldn't apply to starters and isn't really a yeast health issue anyway. Unless you're talking direct sunlight raising the temp too high or something I'm not sure what the issue would be.

 

[psu12288]

That is not a liter starter, it is a 450 ml starter. The 500 ml of wort you added just before pitching doesn't count. Did you put the full 100g of DME in that? If so your starter wort was about 1.082 - not a great way to grow yeast. You want to be more in the 1.035-1.040 range. So sounds like a number of issues - probably stressed and/or underpitched yeast, temps maybe a little low to finish, poor efficiency (I think in the 50's eyeballing your pre-boil numbers) with a large amount of specialty grains that contribute unfermentables.

For a starter you really don't need to boil it down like that, just bring to a boil and it should be enough to kill off any baddies. You want 1g of DME per 10 ml of liquid. If you don't have a stir plate make sure to swirl/shake as frequently as you can while it's fermenting out. The rest of your process for chilling and decanting sounds okay, some yeast especially English strains can be chunky, as long as you get it all in the fermenter it should be okay if the other conditions are good.

It didn’t seem right to me but I followed the instructions for the kit from northern brewer. 1/2 cup of DME boiled in 650 ml of water. I guess I have a lot to learn from.

 

[psu12288]

Are you going to bottle or keg? I'd be very leery of putting a 1.043 beer into a bottle, setting yourself for bombs. How does it taste? Like others have said, learn to make good simple beers before trying to do too much.

We plan on bottle conditioning, but I did pitch more yeast and raise the temperature of the beer a few degrees. So I’m hoping we get a little more out of it. Based off of what we did and the information provided, I’m thinking there wasn’t enough yeast, not enough sugar for the yeast and it was a little too cold.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Here’s the recipe:

Fermentables-
8 lbs rahr 2 row
2 lbs caramel 10
2 lbs caramel 60
1 lbs roasted barley
.8 lbs chocolate 350

At 1.069, that's going to be one hell of a sweet beer. ESBrewer talked about 50 to 60% base malt being the minimum in a beer - that's OK for a smaller beer (eg. Mild Ale) because the TOTAL specialty grains are still in a good range. In a beer of this gravity (high) the amounts of specialty grain (especially crystal/caramel malt) is likely to be cloying. In a big beer, I'd suggest up to 10% as a normal amount, 15% at the high end and MAYBE go to 20% specialty grains in a malt bomb. Although I still think the cold floor is the issue, I wouldn't expect this beer to go far below 1.030 anyway, such a high level of unfermentable dextrins and lactose. I really hope this works out well for you, but I suspect you may end up with a beer that you sip in very small quantities.

 

[psu12288]

At 1.069, that's going to be one hell of a sweet beer. ESBrewer talked about 50 to 60% base malt being the minimum in a beer - that's OK for a smaller beer (eg. Mild Ale) because the TOTAL specialty grains are still in a good range. In a beer of this gravity (high) the amounts of specialty grain (especially crystal/caramel malt) is likely to be cloying. In a big beer, I'd suggest up to 10% as a normal amount, 15% at the high end and MAYBE go to 20% specialty grains in a malt bomb. Although I still think the cold floor is the issue, I wouldn't expect this beer to go far below 1.030 anyway, such a high level of unfermentable dextrins and lactose. I really hope this works out well for you, but I suspect you may end up with a beer that you sip in very small quantities.

I expected it to be a little higher because of the lactose but I didn’t realize I’d get that little out of the specialty grains. Thanks for the input.