Struggling with BIAB efficiency? Use water chemistry!

[berndawg84]

This isn't a question more of a comment. I've been struggling with my BIAB efficiency, it's been at 65 percent. I recently bought this back issue of BYO. If you do BIAB it's worth it. Lots of articles about it in this issue.

https://byo.com/stories/issue/itemlist/category/222-may-jun-2016

Brad Smith talked a lot about how mash pH affected efficiency. I had done the other solutions like double crush your grains with little impact. I recently brewed an NE IPA with 2-row, flaked wheat and oats and some dextrin malt. I used distilled water and then added gypsum and calcium chloride and some phosphoric acid to get my mash pH to 5.3, using Bru'N water. If you want more specific data, let me know.

My point in saying it all is this...doing all this, my efficiency skyrocketed to 87 percent efficiency. I brewed with a veteran homebrewer and he double checked my calculations. He couldn't believe it either. He does traditional all grain and couldn't believe how easy BIAB was, so I may have made another convert. I get that this was only one brew and may not mean much unless I can repeat it, but the difference was astounding. I had to dilute the wort with more distilled water to get my OG down. The only thing I did differently was adjust mash pH, so I conclude that has to be it. Unless of course that somebody tells me that...0.8pounds of both flaked wheat and oats plus 9oz dextrin malt and 6.3pounds of 2-row would have somehow made a difference. Every other part of my usual BIAB process was the same, except for my water adjustments. If someone has a different argument, feel free.

So my message to all you BIABers struggling with efficiencies in the 50's and 60's is....get some RO water for 20 cents per gallon, use Bru'N Water to figure out your water profile and what salts you need, adjust the mash with said salts and you will be on your way.

 

[doug293cz]

Very interesting. A jump from ~65% to 87% is unlikely to be random variation (i.e. a fluke.) People have always said that pH affects the activity of the enzymes, but I think most believed that the effect was much less than what you observed. What you saw was a major difference, not a minor one. I'll have to reset my thinking on the relative importance of factors affecting conversion efficiency.

Congratulations on your breakthrough.

Brew on

 

[plazola86]

I do BIAD and use RO water, salts and lactic acid to get to my desired PH. My system is settled at 70% brew house efficiency. I have seen 75% once but have never been able to go beyond that. I don't stress though 70% isn't that bad and I enjoy the much easier process of BIAB.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I was with doug on that. I always was of the thought that you will have other pH related issues (off flavors like tannin extraction) long before conversion becomes an issue.

Glad you figured it out

 

[berndawg84]

Yea, I should say that a result like this one time may not be significant. It would be significant if it happened a few or more times. Who knows, maybe my efficiency will drop again to the 60's next time. But I know that lots of people who do BIAB struggle with efficiency, and I think that water chemistry, and specifically mash pH, is a place to look. I will try to report back after a couple more batches to see if I get similar numbers.

 

[doug293cz]

Yea, I should say that a result like this one time may not be significant. It would be significant if it happened a few or more times. Who knows, maybe my efficiency will drop again to the 60's next time. But I know that lots of people who do BIAB struggle with efficiency, and I think that water chemistry, and specifically mash pH, is a place to look. I will try to report back after a couple more batches to see if I get similar numbers.

The thing about statistics is, the bigger the change, the less data you need to prove that the change is significant. So, unless you made some really serious measurement errors, it is probably significant.

Brew on

 

[agrazela]

That's a massive increase, and I'm sure pH was a big factor. But with that increase, either your mash pH was WAY off before, or there are more factors at play...

Same brand of 2-row? Same milling? Same mash ratio? Same mash temp and times? What was your mash pH before? What water were you using before?

 

[patsan]

I'm sitting at about 75%. Perfectly happy with that. As a matter of fact, I'm enjoying the ease of BIAB.

Keg and drinking- Maharaja clone and Lemondrop hops. (LemonDrop is my creation. Perfect Florida summer beer!)

Jalapeno Lime Creme Ale Sitting in ferment stage.

 

[Morrey]

I commend anyone who has a revelation and accomplishes major breakthroughs quickly. For me it was a bit slower going with small tweaks adding small improvements at a time. All the water management efforts, mash temp tests and other techniques slowly added up. I started using a press plate on the grain bed and now only lose .05G per lb in absorption. With a normal 10# grain bill, I lose 1/2G on average. This was a pretty good gain but...I think my biggest breakthrough was with my BIAB grind. I tweaked my MM3 mill to the point I was getting a very consistent 83.05% average on 7 or 8 similar gravity beers.

To prove the value of my grind, I was working on motorizing my MM3 and had it out of commission for a bit. I used another mill I was not familiar with and immediately saw the grind looked more coarse. Sure enough, using a recipe I do all the time, I went from 83% down to 76% in one fell swoop. When the MM3 build was completed and I used it next, I went right back to 83%.

Lots of factors come into play...some make more of a difference than others. But a long time brewer here on HBT told me something I always remember - "Chase consistency, not efficiency".

 

[berndawg84]

That's a massive increase, and I'm sure pH was a big factor. But with that increase, either your mash pH was WAY off before, or there are more factors at play...

Same brand of 2-row? Same milling? Same mash ratio? Same mash temp and times? What was your mash pH before? What water were you using before?

Honestly I have no idea what my mash pH was before. Haven't bought a ph meter yet. I just used Denver tap water, which is considered moderate hardness. So that may have been a big issue. Didn't have a water report. For this last batch I made an NE IPA so I wanted to get the water chemistry just right. I used Bru'N water for all calculations. I think from now on I will only use RO water and build it up. I think my palate will thank me.

Great questions...

Same brand of 2-row, same milling. I double crush my grains at the LBHS. I'm guessing their mill is on a standard setting. Same mash ratio I do full volume BIAB. Mash times were always similar. Mash temps have varied some. This IPA I mashed at 149 F. Other beers I've made were mostly Belgians and were step mashed. Can't remember exact temps. But they were different, so there is that. However I doubt the mash temps are what made the difference.

I probably won't be brewing again for a few weeks, but once I do, I can report back on my efficiency numbers and see if this happens again.

 

[filthyastronaut]

I started adjusting my water recently, typically just with various amounts of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, and it's made an impact on mash efficiency. Not quite as dramatic, but I've gone from 70-75 to 80-85 very consistently.

 

[jan_b19]

Sitting at a solid 70% changed to BIAB recently after doing all grain for quite some time. The only thing I could do now to increase me efficiency (I think) Is buying a bigger pot cause I can't fit the entire volume of water in it ( thicker mash, ... bit lower conversion and all that ...). Been doing water chem since all grain and never stopped doing it. It's to important to not do it.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm....a bit surprised that some haven't taken water into consideration before this. Perhaps their local water just worked (mine won't)....

I just brewed my 3rd BIAB batch on Sunday. I use the EZWater spreadsheet, and set it up for a normal brew. Added 5gr of CaCL, 5gr of Epsom Salt, and 6 ml of lactic acid. PH ended up at 5.26.

That's fairly close to what I normally did with a traditional mash tun approach, though the acid was higher. Makes some sense, I started with 7 gallons instead of the normal 4 gallons. Ended up w/ 6.5 gallons, OG of 1.052. 11# of Maris Otter.

I did a few efficiency calcs early in my brewing, but haven't done one for, oh the last 15 or 20 batches. I usually end up at the OG I need, more or less. I always felt that if I needed to add another pound of grain, so what--though it's pretty efficient as it is. Just did one on this one, and it's 80.86 percent. Probably could have done a bit better if I'd sparged, but I'm just fine as it is. Not worth losing sleep over.

The difference between this and traditional mash tun is the crush--I'm down around .020, whereas before I was about .035 or so. Takes longer to crush, but in BIAB, it's apparently just fine.

 

[thaymond]

Watching the pH and adjusting salts helps. I find I can squeeze a few more points of efficiency out with a fine double crush. I pulverize my grain to dust. My highest was in the low 90s for calculated efficiency. I adjusted my brewtoad system settings for 85% efficiency, as that is my most consistent number.

A friend doing traditional AG batches using a RIMS system can't break the 70% threshold, even with pH and water adjustments. In this way I find BIAB superior. I just have to get my hands messy in order to literally squeeze out those extra points.

Glad to see another BIAB convert and believer! Kudos!

 

[fun4stuff]

This isn't a question more of a comment. I've been struggling with my BIAB efficiency, it's been at 65 percent. I recently bought this back issue of BYO. If you do BIAB it's worth it. Lots of articles about it in this issue.

https://byo.com/stories/issue/itemlist/category/222-may-jun-2016

Brad Smith talked a lot about how mash pH affected efficiency. I had done the other solutions like double crush your grains with little impact. I recently brewed an NE IPA with 2-row, flaked wheat and oats and some dextrin malt. I used distilled water and then added gypsum and calcium chloride and some phosphoric acid to get my mash pH to 5.3, using Bru'N water. If you want more specific data, let me know.


My point in saying it all is this...doing all this, my efficiency skyrocketed to 87 percent efficiency. I brewed with a veteran homebrewer and he double checked my calculations. He couldn't believe it either. He does traditional all grain and couldn't believe how easy BIAB was, so I may have made another convert. I get that this was only one brew and may not mean much unless I can repeat it, but the difference was astounding. I had to dilute the wort with more distilled water to get my OG down. The only thing I did differently was adjust mash pH, so I conclude that has to be it. Unless of course that somebody tells me that...0.8pounds of both flaked wheat and oats plus 9oz dextrin malt and 6.3pounds of 2-row would have somehow made a difference. Every other part of my usual BIAB process was the same, except for my water adjustments. If someone has a different argument, feel free.

So my message to all you BIABers struggling with efficiencies in the 50's and 60's is....get some RO water for 20 cents per gallon, use Bru'N Water to figure out your water profile and what salts you need, adjust the mash with said salts and you will be on your way.

I had a very similar jump in efficiency when I first started controlling water chemistry, building up from RO water. High 80% the first time. I Thought it was a fluke. I've done several more brews since. I'm almost always 80-85% now. I've had one that dropped to 70%.

There's no reason not to BIAB. Doing traditional all grain this day in age is equivalent to using Windows 95.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How do you know you have never brewed at pH 5.3 before? Almost seems inevitable that you have. I would think that the grain bill, the water volume to grist weight ratio, and the mash temperature would be greater efficiency impacting factors.

 

[TrashPanda]

Is everyone adding their total amount of salts to the mash? I'm interested in adding to the mash and then the boil. How different will my outcomes be for a specific style? To add, I feel that adjusting pH with phosphoric to the mash, then balancing cl:ca:so4 in the boil might be am overlook. Experiences?

 

[doug293cz]

Is everyone adding their total amount of salts to the mash? I'm interested in adding to the mash and then the boil. How different will my outcomes be for a specific style? To add, I feel that adjusting pH with phosphoric to the mash, then balancing cl:ca:so4 in the boil might be am overlook. Experiences?

What reasons do you have to believe that adjusting in the boil is better than just putting all of the salts/acid in the mash? My understanding is that a minimum level of calcium is beneficial in the mash, but haven't seen anything about higher than minimal levels of ions in the mash being detrimental, (as long as the pH is in the proper range.)

Brew on

 

[TrashPanda]

What reasons do you have to believe that adjusting in the boil is better than just putting all of the salts/acid in the mash? My understanding is that a minimum level of calcium is beneficial in the mash, but haven't seen anything about higher than minimal levels of ions in the mash being detrimental, (as long as the pH is in the proper range.)

Brew on

Based on water levels being smaller for the mash vs final volume. Also, I read someone's feedback stating they adjust mash pH with phosphoric then cacl and caso4 in the boil and that threw me off..