Stout Critique

[Miraculix]

Queue the useless argument.

Carafa I, II, and III are not dehusked.

Carafa I, II, and III SPECIAL are dehusked.

I disagree with you and it may be down to semantics. As far as I know Carafa, in any form, is NOT roasted barley as we know it, i.e. unmalted and roasted. I think this is just an error in Weyermann's info (lost in translation, etc.)

With that in mind, there is no functional difference between the lower lovibond Carafa malts and chocolate malt. Weyermann does offer a roasted barley though.

Maybe you can elaborate on what the difference between a 350L Chocolate malt and 350L Carafa I would be?

Read my post again please. I edited it ten seconds after posting.

 

[brewbama]

I use this as a translation:

Pale Chocolate — Carafa (Special) I
Chocolate — Carafa (Special) II
Black Malt (Black Patent) — Carafa (Special) III

 

[Maverick986]

A lot of great info here, causing me to reevaluate my ingredients, mainly the grains. I've been looking at the amount of flaked oats and barley. I know the oats can add smoothness, and the barley creaminess, my question is, with the below grain bill, is if the amounts are excessive? I'm looking for my stout to be creamy smooth, but not sure how much the other malts may be helping or hindering, where I should keep the current amounts, or adjust them any.

Pale 2-Row - 57%
Maris Otter Caramel Malt - 10%
Flaked Oats - 10%
Flaked Barley - 8%
Carafa II Special - 5%
Midnight Wheat - 5%
Munich Dark 20L - 5%

 

[Miraculix]

Oats don't add creaminess.

http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Oats add mainly nothing, they are good for the yeast and long term storage, that's it.

They can also kill your head retention, but shouldn't happen at ten percent.

What is the Munich for in your recipe? You can certainly brew as it is and it will be good but personally, I like to know exactly why I add an ingredient and dark munich at five percent won't be detectable. I would skip the Munich altogether and replace it with pale.

 

[Dgallo]

Oats don't add creaminess.

http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Oats add mainly nothing, they are good for the yeast and long term storage, that's it.

They can also kill your head retention, but shouldn't happen at ten percent.

What is the Munich for in your recipe? You can certainly brew as it is and it will be good but personally, I like to know exactly why I add an ingredient and dark munich at five percent won't be detectable. I would skip the Munich altogether and replace it with pale.

Did you actually read that article? The Whole beginning is how using oat greatly increases the mouthfeel by adding proportional large amounts of proteins.

I’ve used oats in all different beer styles and I can tell you Oats 100% adds creaminess/chewyness. You’re correct though, it has a huge negativity impact on head retention. Step mashing helps but it does certainly need to be paired with malted or flaked wheat/barley to improve the head.

 

[Miraculix]

Did you actually read that article? The Whole beginning is how using oat greatly increases the mouthfeel by adding proportional large amounts of proteins.

I’ve used oats in all different beer styles and I can tell you Oats 100% adds creaminess/chewyness. You’re correct though, it has a huge negativity impact on head retention. Step mashing helps but it does certainly need to be paired with malted or flaked wheat/barley to improve the head.

Mate, read the whole thing, not just the intro.

And on another note, I made blind tests with a smash, same beer but with 30% oats and another one with 30% flaked barley instead of the oats. Zero difference in perception, mouthfeel, whatsoever, except for cloudiness.

Your perceived creaminess is your confirmation bias playing games with your mouth, think porridge, expect creaminess, percieve it. Psychology can be interesting! I am falling for it all the time, latest one was carafa malt for me. I was 100% it is unmalted.... So it tasted like less bitter roast barley to me.

 

[Dgallo]

Mate, read the whole thing, not just the intro.

And on another note, I made blind tests with a smash, same beer but with 30% oats and another one with 30% flaked barley instead of the oats. Zero difference in perception, mouthfeel, whatsoever, except for cloudiness.

Your perceived creaminess is your confirmation bias playing games with your mouth, think porridge, expect creaminess, percieve it. Psychology can be interesting! I am falling for it all the time, latest one was carafa malt for me.

Process and mashing has a huge impact on using oats. So does if you choose to use kettle finings. There are more proteins in flaked oats than flaked barley(I like this grain too) so if you aren’t mashing high enough to extract the excess or you’re fining the excess protein out, then yes your probably arent able to detect the differences

 

[Miraculix]

Process and mashing has a huge impact on using oats. So does if you choose to use kettle finings. There are more proteins in flaked oats than flaked barley(I like this grain too) so if you aren’t mashing high enough to extract the excess or you’re fining the excess protein out, then yes your probably arent able to detect the differences

I never fine my wort but cannot tell for sure that the mash wasn't on the low temperature side. Although I don't think that protein extraction is that dependent on temperature as you say.

Have you now read the whole article?

 

[Dgallo]

I never fine my wort but cannot tell for sure that the mash wasn't on the low temperature side.

Have you now read the whole article?

I’ve read it multiple times, including the updated info on oats in his new book. I’m a NEIPA guy so I’ve been following janish’s stuff for a few years now. He suggest 18-20% to increase the silkyness. Mashing 154-156 to increase extraction of unfermentable sugars. All increase mouthfeel

 

[Miraculix]

I’ve read it multiple times, including the updated info on oats in his new book. I’m a NEIPA guy so I’ve been following janish’s stuff for a few years now. He suggest 18-20% to increase the silkyness. Mashing 154-156 to increase extraction of unfermentable sugars. All increase mouthfeel

Yes exactly and below that percentage, no effect.

 

[Dgallo]

Yes exactly and below that percentage, no effect.

But that’s not what you claimed. You literally said oats does nothing but help yeast and shelf-life

 

[Miraculix]

But that’s not what you claimed. You literally said oats does nothing but help yeast and shelf-life

OK, i was a bit unclear, that is true. I was talking about a "normal" percentage and particularly about the ten percent in the given recipe.

I prefer wheat flour or spelt flour at about ten to twenty percent within the mash for enhanced mouthfeel. Made a Belgian one with outstanding mouthfeel, silky, with 40% spelt flour. Don't know why but it also came out clear, which wasn't expected. Another plus, it really really boosts the head.

 

[Maverick986]

What is the Munich for in your recipe?

My thought was to add some bready taste. I'm not certain the dark Munich I have is 20L, looking thought notes I have I think it may be Weyermann's dark. When I was referencing my inventory list, and entering it into my calculator I just picked the 20L option (imo not good practice, long day and trying to do it quick). I also read about adding some dark Munich to stouts somewhere, but can't find that article again, so I'm starting to think I'm confusing it with something else.

 

[Maverick986]

Rereading everything here, I haven't been clear what my goal is. I want to make a stout on the sweet side, with some caramel and chocolate notes. I like my American Stouts, however, from the English ones I've had seem to prefer them when I can get them.

While I'm trying to keep to using ingredients I already have, I'm trying not to just throw ingredients in to just use them up, I'm trying to avoid buying more ingredients, while others just sit on a shelf right now. So, some of the grains I'm looking to use are based on what I remember seeing elsewhere, vs. what I have on-hand.

 

[Miraculix]

My thought was to add some bready taste. I'm not certain the dark Munich I have is 20L, looking thought notes I have I think it may be Weyermann's dark. When I was referencing my inventory list, and entering it into my calculator I just picked the 20L option (imo not good practice, long day and trying to do it quick). I also read about adding some dark Munich to stouts somewhere, but can't find that article again, so I'm starting to think I'm confusing it with something else.

At five percent, you won't taste it at all. I would just leave it out for now and maybe introduce it at about 20% in a future batch, just to be able to see what it does.

What I personally did, when starting with stouts, was starting with 90% pale and 10% roast barley, only bittering hops and an og at about 1.05. in parallel the same but with chocolate malt instead of roasted barley. Turned out that I preferred roasted barley above the chocolate. Next brew then was the same recipe but introducing 10% crystal malt .... I guess you see where I'm going with this. One ingredient at the time and you really learn about the effect it has. If you are having a busy malt bill and many hops you will never figure out which ingredient does exactly what.

And believe it or not, ten percent roast Barley and rest pale with s04 as the yeast of choice makes a delicious brew.

 

[Miraculix]

Rereading everything here, I haven't been clear what my goal is. I want to make a stout on the sweet side, with some caramel and chocolate notes. I like my American Stouts, however, from the English ones I've had seem to prefer them when I can get them.

While I'm trying to keep to using ingredients I already have, I'm trying not to just throw ingredients in to just use them up, I'm trying to avoid buying more ingredients, while others just sit on a shelf right now. So, some of the grains I'm looking to use are based on what I remember seeing elsewhere, vs. what I have on-hand.

Ah, ok, then no American hops. At least none other than bittering hops.

What you are describing would be 10to15% medium crystal, 10% roasted stuff and the rest base malt with a low attenuating yeast like windsor or lots of British liquid yeasts which I only tried Imperial yeast pub from, which I love, but it might end up a bit too sweet, depending on what you want.

 

[applescrap]

I wildly reccomend not making your own recipe, but I know for some this is a joy. Maybe get a good recipe and tweak it a little as a place to start. My go to is founders kbs recipe, the brewers released it and it's good. Start there and adjust