Stone Pale Ale - grain to bottle in four days?

[ChadChaney]

Mitch at Stone, thanks for jumping in the conversation to clarify! I emailed about this exact thread last week and you replied with 2 emails in less than 24 hours, classy. now, if only I could get you guys to distribute to the Midwest (Iowa)... Also a classy and fun team at GABF, took the time to explain to my wife and beer newbie friends all the different brews you guys had there and then gave them all a taste of the special pour Old Gaurdian and I was the only one who had the slip from the book signing. You guys rock...

 

[dmckean44]

I'm pretty sure Stone runs a centrifuge and a filter system. Most top breweries do contrary to popular homebrewer belief.

They also pasteurize.

Stone does not pasteurize.

 

[scottland]

Stone does not pasteurize.

Are you sure? Every can you brew it episode about arrogant bastard said they do.

 

[Apendecto]

Are you sure? Every can you brew it episode about arrogant bastard said they do.

I heard that one too and I don't know where they are getting it from.

 

[borden]

Mitch at Stone, thanks for jumping in the conversation to clarify! I emailed about this exact thread last week and you replied with 2 emails in less than 24 hours, classy. now, if only I could get you guys to distribute to the Midwest (Iowa)... Also a classy and fun team at GABF, took the time to explain to my wife and beer newbie friends all the different brews you guys had there and then gave them all a taste of the special pour Old Gaurdian and I was the only one who had the slip from the book signing. You guys rock...

Pop up to Minneapolis... plenty of Stone to go around (finally)!

 

[dmckean44]

Are you sure? Every can you brew it episode about arrogant bastard said they do.

The little advert I have for their IPA says:

No Additives
No Chemical Preservatives
No Pasteurization
No Adjuncts (rice/corn)

It's probably 3 years old but I can't imagine they'd just start pasteurizing one day after not doing it the first 17 years.

 

[MitchAtStone]

A little more clarification:
We do centrifuge and do a rough filter on our beers. Most craft brewers our size use a similar setup.
We do NOT pasteurize!

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[stubbornman]

A little more clarification:
We do centrifuge and do a rough filter on our beers. Most craft brewers our size use a similar setup.
We do NOT pasteurize!

Cheers,
Mitch

:rockin:

 

[bolshoifish]

Would the amount of yeast used in commercial operations be considered "overpitching" by most homebrew dogma? If so, why are the purported flavors produced by excessive yeast growth not considered 'off flavors", seeing as they don't show up in most commercial operations? Or am I missing something here...

 

[Apendecto]

:rockin:

+11

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I'm curious as to what the problem would be if Stone did in fact pasteurize? If you like the beer, who cares if it has or not.

Just like the people who are against filtering. If the end result is great beer, then who cares what steps were taken to get a quality product to market?

 

[emjay]

Would the amount of yeast used in commercial operations be considered "overpitching" by most homebrew dogma? If so, why are the purported flavors produced by excessive yeast growth not considered 'off flavors", seeing as they don't show up in most commercial operations? Or am I missing something here...

Overpitching actually *reduces* yeast growth (underpitching is what creates excessive yeast growth). It doesn't create off flavors per se, but it decreases the production of various, often desirable (in reasonable quantities) flavor compounds associated with the growth stage.

That being said, there are some differences between fermenting commercially and fermenting at home which make it difficult to draw precise conclusions from commercial practices. The pressures involved in the massive commercial conicals would be notable example. Also, they're operating as a business, and one benefit from "overpitching" is that it shortens fermentation time, which is a *huge* consideration when trying to turn a profit.

 

[bolshoifish]

Overpitching actually *reduces* yeast growth (underpitching is what creates excessive yeast growth). It doesn't create off flavors per se, but it decreases the production of various, often desirable (in reasonable quantities) flavor compounds associated with the growth stage.

That being said, there are some differences between fermenting commercially and fermenting at home which make it difficult to draw precise conclusions from commercial practices. The pressures involved in the massive commercial conicals would be notable example. Also, they're operating as a business, and one benefit from "overpitching" is that it shortens fermentation time, which is a *huge* consideration when trying to turn a profit.

Maybe I didn't word my statement well, but your reply is what I was going for: overpitching will reduce the number of compounds. Thus standard pitching rates in homebrewing would yield more yeast growth and more various flavor compounds. If this had any significant flavor change, then one would immediately be able to "taste" if you were drinking homebrew. Thus, if one considers commercial beers as the bar.. homebrew would always taste like it was "underpitched" from the standard commercial beer drinker.

I understand that homebrewers pitch lower rates since attaining that much yeast usually means vast quantities of dry yeast or a yeast cake, but the commercial aspect points to overpitching not being something that a homebrewer has to worry about. In fact, it would seem almost impossible to make the same beer twice if you were counting on flavor compounds from an explicit amount of yeast growth, yes?

(I don't really have a point.. just trying to avoid working).

 

[pm5k00]

I don't know if this has been said already or not, but with a typical american pale ale, you don't want any yeast character so "over pitching" is ideal.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I don't know if this has been said already or not, but with a typical american pale ale, you don't want any yeast character so "over pitching" is ideal.

Pitching rate will affect more than just esters. There are lots of other ways that the pitching rate will affect the beer such as hop bitterness, body, mouthfeel, attenuation, etc...

 

[pm5k00]

Pitching rate will affect more than just esters. There are lots of other ways that the pitching rate will affect the beer such as hop bitterness, body, mouthfeel, attenuation, etc...

I have pitched onto a yeast cake plenty of times without ever having a problem with any of those things you mentioned. I am not saying they can't be a factor, but they haven't been for me.

 

[Malticulous]

I'm sure Stone has some of these,

Donny Conn took that photo at Serra Nevada. I believe its 20L starter stired with O2 and fresh out of the lab. I'd bet it's good for a few trillion cells. After that it will have to be stepped up in the fermenter.

I have pitched onto a yeast cake plenty of times without ever having a problem with any of those things you mentioned. I am not saying they can't be a factor, but they haven't been for me.

It's more a problem if you repitch a lot. The poor growth phase leaves you with an older population. It's standard to let the population grow 3-5 times the pitched rate. There is a point where higher pitch rates no longer speed up fermentation. Low pitch rates will produce less alcohol too as more energy is used up in the growth phase.

 

[emjay]

I don't know if this has been said already or not, but with a typical american pale ale, you don't want any yeast character so "over pitching" is ideal.

I will add that esters *are* in fact the MAIN thing that will be affected.

However, you're not entirely correct about the yeast character comment. Moderate ester character is frequently considered desirable (and always considered acceptable) in a pale ale. And many pales which have a very low level of esters are still "supported" by them - e.g., the only way you really notice it is comparing to a beer that is *truly* lacking, which many people have trouble identifying the difference beyond words like "boring".

That being said, totally neutral is certainly also more than okay for a pale ale (my gripe was with your very incorrect usage of the words "you" and "ideal" - try "I" and "acceptable"). And overpitching is a very valid way of achieving this character. Manipulating pitch rates should be in every brewer's toolbox - my saison just wouldn't be the same without it. But, as the poster above me (sort of) noted, when you start playing with pitch rates, you're sacrificing yeast health, and thus the ability to keep repitching it without issue. I don't stick with a house strain, so it's not really a big concern for me, but many people would probably feel that this tradeoff isn't really worth it.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I have pitched onto a yeast cake plenty of times without ever having a problem with any of those things you mentioned. I am not saying they can't be a factor, but they haven't been for me.

I bet you would be able to pick out the beer that was pitched at "correct" pitching rates and the one pitched on a whole yeast cake in a triangle test. Sure, you can make good beer with that method, but it will be different. Sometimes only slightly, but still different.

 

[Malticulous]

Sean Terrill (a10t2) Did an experiment.
http://seanterrill.com/2010/05/09/yeast-pitching-rate-results/

He pitch half a batch at something near 3 million/ml, the other as per Mr. Malty. A bunch of people tasted it. They did notice a difference. Near half the tasters liked the low pitch beer better. He used US-05. I think something like WLP002 would be a better experiment. Some English beers have been pitched as low as 5 million/ml.

 

[pm5k00]

You/I ideal/acceptable, yes I was expressing my opinion, not trying to convey a universal truth. And "correct" pitching rate is subjective, there lots of different ways to do things that are neither wronge or right. They way I like todo things and the results are all preference, and as far as american pale ales go, I personally like to smell the hops first and malt second, with zero esters from yeast.

 

[bolshoifish]

So, if a commercial brewer wanted to scale a recipe that relied on a relatively moderate pitching rate for the taste, how would they do so? I would imagine that underpitching isn't really an option on a large scale since the possible lack of profitability is an issue in the highly competitive beer market (due to longer fermentation rates and possible inability to reuse yeast?) So, do they have an alternate route for producing esters?

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

So, do they have an alternate route for producing esters?

Yep,

Temp, oxygen...

 

[SocalNat]

And no, I can't provide Arrogant Bastard Ale recipe or ingredients ;-)

"You can, and you will!"
Dr. Reston (Svenjolly) on Seinfeld

 

[bolshoifish]

Yep,

Temp, oxygen...

I should probably just read a textbook, but in not so few words, your saying they alter the conditions to induce additional yeast growth? If not, I would think the reactions producing esters due to fermentation at higher temperatures varies considerably from those produced via anabolic reactions involving offshoots of the Krebs cycle (I'm assuming they are coming from anabolic since it is during a propagation phase.. but, I've been wrong many times before).

Any way you could be more specific?

 

[emjay]

I should probably just read a textbook, but in not so few words, your saying they alter the conditions to induce additional yeast growth? If not, I would think the reactions producing esters due to fermentation at higher temperatures varies considerably from those produced via anabolic reactions involving offshoots of the Krebs cycle (I'm assuming they are coming from anabolic since it is during a propagation phase.. but, I've been wrong many times before).

Any way you could be more specific?

No, you're on the right track it sounds like. It's just a reality that commercial breweries have to deal with... there is no "perfect" compensation for it (though I doubt anyone cares too much, tbh).

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I should probably just read a textbook, but in not so few words, your saying they alter the conditions to induce additional yeast growth? If not, I would think the reactions producing esters due to fermentation at higher temperatures varies considerably from those produced via anabolic reactions involving offshoots of the Krebs cycle (I'm assuming they are coming from anabolic since it is during a propagation phase.. but, I've been wrong many times before).

Any way you could be more specific?

I think most brewers are just going to go from experience to create the flavor profile that they want. I would pickup the Yeast book for more in depth info. I am not a micro biologist, nor do I play one on TV, so I'm not really knowledgeable on all the reactions.

Every fermentation is different. What works for one brewer will not work for another. Wort composition, fermenter shape and size, ambient atmosphere, base water, etc... are all factors. That is where the "zen" of brewing comes into play and you adjust the factors based on experience to create the flavor profile that you want based on your equipment.