stirplate yeast starter question

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atonofhops

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I just got my stir plate built........I plan to make a 1 quart starter of danstar west coast ale yeast for a cream ale......here is the the plen, 1/4 teaspoon of the dry yeast into a starter of 1.040 dme/water.....how long will it need to spin up before its ready to pitch?
 
Dry yeast should be re-hydrated. Not a starter. No stirplate is needed. Just about a half cup of 90 degree water and 30 minutes. Making a starter from dry yeast actually counteracts what is engineered into it.

Do not make a starter with dry yeast.
 
Dry yeast should be re-hydrated. Not a starter. No stirplate is needed. Just about a half cup of 90 degree water and 30 minutes. Making a starter from dry yeast actually counteracts what is engineered into it.

Do not make a starter with dry yeast.

Counteracts because when they are dried, their cells reserves are stored up and are good to go, basically how ur yeast would be after the starter has been running for 12-18 hours. Adding them to the starter will make them use up those reserves which, like the above poster stater, is counter productive.

Starters are mainly used for liquid yeasts, which lose viability as soon as the package leaves the factory. This isn't a concern with dry yeast due to how they are packaged.
 
Due to financial restrictions I need to try to get 3-5 batches from a single package of yeast. I have made starters form dry yeast for 10+ years now with great success and have never had an issue. I do not have the time equipment or space to recycle yeast and racking unto a fresh yeast cake just isnt for me. Since I cant get an answer for my question I will go forth with my starter and post the results, perhaps a week will do the trick. I will post my results when done.
 
Well after doing the 1/4 teaspoon I decided it was not enough so I went with 2 teaspoons or about 1/3 pack.
 
I rehydrate first, even before when I made whole package starters.
This time I added 1/4 teaspoon to warm tap water and I was not sure about the whole thing, I have propagated enough to pitch from the residue left in a few bottle beers which was way less that that 1/4 teaspoon, since my goal was to go 3 batches per package it came out to 2 teaspoons total for 1/3 of a package. My starter is going strong and is very cloudy I am turning the stirplate off tonight to see what I have as far as yeast setteling, I plan to brew tomorrow so if there is enough fallout then I will run with it, if not then I will check again in a few more days.
 
Due to financial restrictions I need to try to get 3-5 batches from a single package of yeast.

I don't understand. Dry yeast is the cheapest part of most batches of beer. Why are finances so tight that you're unable to afford a fresh package of $3 dry yeast with each batch of beer you brew? How are you able to afford everything else, but $3 worth of yeast is a deal breaker?

I have made starters form dry yeast for 10+ years now with great success

You undoubtably ended up with beer, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been better with a proper yeast protocol.

I do not have the time equipment or space to recycle yeast and racking unto a fresh yeast cake just isnt for me.

You have the time to weigh out DME, boil it, chill out, and let it ride a stir plate for 1-2 days, but you don't have time to swirl some water around inside a carboy and transfer it between a few Mason jars?

I'm sorry, maybe you've left out some crucial detail that would make this all make sense, but to me, it's not adding up.

Since I cant get an answer for my question I will go forth with my starter

You can, of course, do whatever you want to do. But people have repeatedly told you that the science clearly shows that preparing a starter with dry yeast is counter-productive. It is exhausting the yeast, which will cause them to throw off-flavours in the main batch of beer.
 
atonofhops said:
I just got my stir plate built........I plan to make a 1 quart starter of danstar west coast ale yeast for a cream ale......here is the the plen, 1/4 teaspoon of the dry yeast into a starter of 1.040 dme/water.....how long will it need to spin up before its ready to pitch?

While unnecessary, this isn't a bad way to propagate and harvest yeast for subsequent batches. A week is too long, 36-48 hours will do.
 
I personally can afford to buy a fresh package of yeast each time but if I can save 15 to 20 bucks over 5 batches of ale, why not? I just take all the proper sanitary precautions for preparing the water to use for the yeast wash. I do agree that washing yeast doesn't take that much time out of your day other than waiting for the trub to settle to the bottom before canting off the suspended good yeast into jars. If you have room for a carboy, you have room for a few washed jars of yeast since they go in the fridge til your next brew day. I have done starters from dry yeast but that was before having an understanding that dry yeast literally has over 220 billion cells ready to go to work on your wort. Its true that it doesn't hurt to do a starter for liquid yeasts since it will help wake up and rejuvenate them from their nice cold slumber. If you feel you are getting good results making starters from dry yeasts then more power to ya and glad you are having success. Cheers!
 
I thought long and hard about answering some of these questions, in short I feel like it would be counter productive to the conversation to answer some of the questions. I do feel the need to just say this, My financial situation in none of your business at all, I could be a penny pinching billionare or I could be on my 10th bankrupcy, it does not matter.

I have read about some folks running a yeast cake for 5 generations from dry yeast. I have read about dry yeast and why its not necessary, but no where execpt from forums have I read where you should not make a starter from dry yeast. I have never used this particular yeast so I am not going to be able to comapre flavors from a direct pitch batch. I can say from nottingham and windsor the flavors are not diffrent between starter batches and direct pitch.

In short I made my beer today and pitched the yeast, if there is no activity in the airloch with in 24 hours I will rehydrate the rest of the packet and pitch, time will tell. If the beer does go as I plan then it should be a great tasting brew. Either way in the end this has been an interesting adventure. If it works I will save about $8 every 3 batches which equates to roughly enough grain for my English Mild. If it does not work then I will have to cut my brewing back or skim from some other source. I will continue to post as the brew ferments(or doesnt)
 
As I sit here at work reading around, I have found that dry yeast has a "coating" which has nutrients and "stuff" that super activate the yeast cells when rehydrated. So on and so forth, I think the misconception is in terms of the words dont and dont need to. The yeast should still work in my aplication but with the coating used up there will be a longer lag time in fermentation.
 
no where execpt from forums have I read where you should not make a starter from dry yeast.

Although many homebrewing books cover the topic and advise against making starters for dry yeasts (for the reasons already cited in this thread), the authoritative reference on the topic is the book "Yeast," by White/Zainasheff.
 
I don't mean to offend, but it sounds like you're playing a "guessing game" with your pitching rates, for the sake of a few dollars. I apologize if I'm mistaken, but the impression I'm getting is that you're not actually calculating your optimal pitching rate, and ensuring you're pitching enough yeast. It sounds like you're cutting corners, pitching too few cells the first time, then overpitching on subsequent batches by re-using the entire yeast cake.

You will, of course, still end up with beer. In my personal experience, fermentation management is the single most important factor affecting the quality of the resulting beer. Calculating and adhering to proper pitching rates (using tools like Mr. Malty), and rigorously controlling my fermentation temperatures, have made a very noticeable difference in my beer, much moreso than any other element of my brewing. All I mean to say is that in my opinion, spending a little extra time/money/effort in properly managing your yeast will make a world of difference.

It's your beer, and as long as you like it, that's all that matters. I just feel a little cringe whenever I know that someone is spending so much effort making something that could be noticeably better if they just made a slight change to their process.
 
I have read about some folks running a yeast cake for 5 generations from dry yeast. I have read about dry yeast and why its not necessary, but no where execpt from forums have I read where you should not make a starter from dry yeast. I have never used this particular yeast so I am not going to be able to comapre flavors from a direct pitch batch. I can say from nottingham and windsor the flavors are not diffrent between starter batches and direct pitch.

The reason that people say a starter is not necessary for dry yeast is because the cell counts are much higher in dry yeast, there is some nutrient included and the cells that die will feed the living ones. There was a thread in this forum where someone did a test splitting a batch into 3 fermenters, one of which was sprinkled dry, one was rehydrated, and one was given a starter. If I recall correctly, the one with a starter and the rehydrated one both took off faster than the dry one, but they all fermented well and i believe the dry sprinked one actually attenuated better than the others. Just food for thought.
 
DrunkleJon: That may have been me I split a saison I think it was, last year I know I posted that some place on this forum, others may have done the same.

Kombat: I did not think about the proper pitching rate I just assumed that building a starter from 1/3 pack of yeast would work, as is though from what I can tell on Mr. Malty I sould be good to go for this batch. But I dont use the yeast cake, when my beer is done the trub abd yeast all go down the drain. I would not say I am cutting corners. I am just trying to maximize my spending. Time will tell, when I pitched it took about 4 hours for fermentation to start I cant tell right off how well my plastic bucket lid does not seal too tight but there is a nice thick frothy foam on top of the fermentor so I feel its going well, the air lock is moving co2 (I really need a new lid or slap some plastic wrap around the seal). In short this time I think it will be ok, for my larger beers it wont work I will need a starter from a whole package or pitch 2 packets. After this batch I will decide if this is worth continuing or not.
 
While making a yeast starter from dry yeast may not be too economical, it can be done successfully. There has been several comments that the dry yeast has all the nutrients it needs, and making a starter from it thins out the nutrients for all the splits, thereby weakening it. The solution is simple and has not been mentioned. Just add a teaspoon or so of yeast nutrient when making the starter (add it to the boiling water). I regularly make starters with liquid yeasts and always add additional nutrient which the yeast needs, even if it's being stored in a refrigerator.
 
I understand ur doing it for financial reasons but have u considered slants?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/slanting-yeast-133103/

Bit of an investment up front (Just did a quick check on Amazon... 31 bucks for the 2 vials, agar agar bar and a beaker set) but once u do, I don't see why u couldn't just rehydrate and entire dry pack, then slant it. U'd be reusing everything except the agar agar and DME. The OP says some of the slants can last up to a year and a half. He makes 25 at a pop and will use 5-6 slants per strain. Ideally u could do that and end up saving the money at the end of the year.
 
But I dont use the yeast cake, when my beer is done the trub abd yeast all go down the drain. I am just trying to maximize my spending.

Re-using the yeast is the single most effective way of getting the most value from your yeast. Splitting a packet of dry yeast and trying to stretch it over several batches will work, but at the end of fermentation you've got a huge amount of yeast, eager to get to work for you again, and it seems very counterproductive to just dump it all down the drain.

If your main goal is minimizing cost (and you've said repeatedly that it is), then I strongly recommend that you seriously consider washing and re-using the yeast.
 
If your main goal is minimizing cost (and you've said repeatedly that it is), then I strongly recommend that you seriously consider washing and re-using the yeast.

I agree. It's far more efficient and cost-efficient to wash the yeast after racking from the primary, than to multiply it directly from the package. With the package, you have to add yeast nutrient and dried malt extract. With the washed yeast from the primary, you have a LOT of strong, healthy yeast with lots of nutrient. The washed yeast can generally be split into four separate starters and kept in the refridgerator for up to about about six weeks. At that time, just make a 1.5 liter starter of each container (with additional dried malt extract and yeast nutrient), let it ferment, and put them back in the refrigerator. Then you can either use it within a few days, or leave it in the refridgerator for another six weeks. You can repeat this every six weeks or so, and if you have sterilized everything very carefully, you can likely keep the yeast alive and healthy for more than a year.
 
Thanks guys, though this worked this time, perhaps there is a better way, although inexpensive the way I did this one(about $1 worth of dme) I may invest some cash for the slants as listed above or invest some cash for the traditional yeast washing from the yeast cake. I still have 2/3 pack of west coast ale yeast perhaps I will make a mild ale and just pitch the rest of the pack on a 1.037 og batch I have waiting to make.
 
atonofhops said:
Thanks guys, though this worked this time, perhaps there is a better way, although inexpensive the way I did this one(about $1 worth of dme) I may invest some cash for the slants as listed above or invest some cash for the traditional yeast washing from the yeast cake. I still have 2/3 pack of west coast ale yeast perhaps I will make a mild ale and just pitch the rest of the pack on a 1.037 og batch I have waiting to make.

You will find yeast washing to be the cheapest method for sure. You can usually use a strain over and again for up to 6 batches of beer before starting with a fresh pack of yeast. If you go over 6 times, you risk the yeast mutating and changing. Just get yourself a large mason jar and a couple of small mason jars. YouTube has some great yeast washing videos. Sanitation is key to washing yeasts as well.
 
Bit of an investment up front (Just did a quick check on Amazon... 31 bucks for the 2 vials, agar agar bar and a beaker set) but once u do, I don't see why u couldn't just rehydrate and entire dry pack, then slant it. U'd be reusing everything except the agar agar and DME. The OP says some of the slants can last up to a year and a half. He makes 25 at a pop and will use 5-6 slants per strain. Ideally u could do that and end up saving the money at the end of the year.


One does not need a beaker to make slants. I maintained a yeast bank for a decade before taking over a decade long hiatus from brewing (I am currently rebuilding my brewhouse and home-based lab). The only thing that one needs to purchase in order to be able to slant yeast is a pressure cooker with which to autoclave (pressure cook) one's slants. I used 4oz baby food jars that contained a fluid ounce of 1.030 wort solidified with agar when I first started to slant yeast over two decades ago. My first loop was a paper clip.

With that said, three really nice to have pieces of lab equipment are an alcohol lamp (burns denatured, grain, or 90% isopropyl alcohol and is much safer than a Bunsen burner in a home-based lab environment), a reusable nichrome loop, and 20+ screw-cap culture tubes (one can use a turkey baster to fill the screw-cap culture tubes with media). The culture tube sizes that work best in a home-based bank are 16x100mm, 25x100mm, 16x125mm, and 20x125mm. I just picked up a set of twenty autoclavable 20x125mm screw-cap culture tubes on eBay for $29.00 shipped (http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-Glass-Cu...121?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cdefb8e9). Better deals can be had if one is patient, but one needs to ensure that the caps are autoclavable (i.e., can handle 250F @ 15psi). I just purchased a loop and an alcohol loop from Home Science Tools (www.homesciencetools.com) for $17.80 shipped. I like the loop shown below because the tip comes off.

Loop

http://www.hometrainingtools.com/inoculating-needle-looped-end/p/BE-INOCUL/

BE-INOCUL.jpg


Alcohol lamp

http://www.hometrainingtools.com/alcohol-lamp-glass/p/CE-LAMP2/

CE-LAMP2.jpg


In order to start yeast from a slant, one must prepare autoclaved 30ml 1.030 wort sterile starters (like one’s slants, 30ml sterile starters need to be pressure cooked for 15 minutes after the pressure cooker starts to make noise). One can use expensive lab glassware for one's sterile starters, but 4oz baby food jars are a perfect and cheap fit for the job, especially considering that they are usually one man's/woman's trash. One has to remove the labels and glue from the jars, but a little soaking will loosen the label and "Goo Gone" will remove the glue residue. The neat thing about baby food jars is that they will vacuum seal if one tightens the lids down after removing them from the pressure cooker. Their lids will make a loud pop. An autoclaved, vacuum-sealed 30ml sterile starter will remain sterile for years if kept in a zip lock bag in one's refrigerator (the zip lock bag just keeps the nasties off of the outside of the jar). Baby food jars can usually be autoclaved several times before the seals on the lids give out.

The basic procedure for starting a from a slant is to transfer a loopful or two of yeast from a slant to a 30ml sterile starter using sterile technique (a.k.a. aseptic technique). One only needs to crack the lid on the baby food jar enough to be able clear the jar's lip and lid with the loop. After the sterile starter has been inoculated with yeast from the slant, the lid is tightened and the jar is shaken to oxygenate the wort and disperse the culture.

One should be able to hear the hiss of gas escaping when the cap is loosened after 24 hours (some cultures can take up to three days). The 30ml sterile starter should be propagated to a 250ml boiled 1.030 starter on day two if gas was present when the cap was loosened (sometimes one will have to wait several days to perform this step). A 1000ml Erlenmeyer flask with drilled and non-drilled #8 stoppers makes this step easy, as the starter wort can be boiled and cooled in the flask by loosely covering the flask mouth with a piece of sanitized aluminum foil while it is cooling (I spray the foil with alcohol and allow it to flash off before cover the mouth of the flask). The stoppers need to be boiled in water for 15 minutes.

After the starter wort has cooled, the 30ml starter is transferred to the 250ml starter by swirling the yeast into suspension, wiping the mouth of the 30ml jar with a cotton swab that has been soaked in grain or 90% isopropyl alcohol, burning off the alcohol using a butane lighter or an alcohol lamp, and pouring the contents of the 30ml jar into the flask. The solid rubber stopper is then pressed into the mouth of the flask, and the flask is well shaken before replacing the solid stopper with a drilled stopper and an airlock filled with grain alcohol.

The 250ml starter should be stepped to a two-liter starter on the following day. The two-liter starter is pitchable. The mouth of the two-liter starter should also be swabbed with alcohol and flamed before pitching into a batch of wort.

If this procedure is followed religiously, one can repitch the yeast without worry, as long as one swabs the lip of one's carboy with alcohol before taking a crop. Most infections are the result of improper starter handling. If one follows my procedure, one's yeast culture will be cleaner than anything one can purchase in the homebrew trade, including anything from Wyeast or White Labs.

Please note that everything that one uses for culturing has to be dedicated to culturing. For example, one should not use the household turkey baster to fill the culture tubes with gelatinized wort. One should also purchase a dedicated box of cotton for transferring cultures. Yeast is the single most important ingredient in beer. How it is handled makes the difference between an okay beer and a great beer.
 
Thanks for sharing this, I've been thinking of looking into this and it answered a lot of my questions.

Glad it was helpful. The full thread eventually gets a little silly but that first post is one of my top 5 favorites in all of HBT.
 
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