Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[jmitchell3]

I have a question about hot side aeration, doesn't the boil take care of this? Also, why do we avoid it when we purposely aerate right after the boil? I've never understood this.

Its usually minor and good fermentation takes care of it.

 

[okbecker]

Are you aerating right after the boil, or right after you have cooled to pitching temps? I would do a search for HSA on here, lots of posts. In a nutshell introducing O2 at elevated temps may create HSA which may lead to off flavors....I say may as HSA is contested by many at the homebrew level...

 

[LostArtBrewer]

Refer to Palmer's How to Brew for a more detailed explanation on hot side aeration. Essentially, the wort is susceptible to oxidation at sparge temps (but not at pitching temps).

 

[ss4ivan]

Hot side aeration is not really an issue at the home brew level scale. Brulosopher did an exbeeriment where he splashed and stirred the crap out of his wort and got no off flavors. I also just let my sparge water fall 3 feet from the counter into the boil kettle on the ground and stir the crap out of it when cooling and I've never had any kind of off flavors.


Edit: Heres the link - http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/18/is-hot-side-aeration-fact-or-fiction-exbeeriment-results/

 

[mongoose33]

reading thru this thread was just like driving the Road to Hana...but having read thru all the posts, my money is on oxidation; either hot side and/or cold side. Water, I feel, can be safely ruled out since all styles taste equally bad.

Well, not really. He said the darker beers were worse, which is what put me on to the idea that it might be water.

Watch hot side aeration during sparge (minimize splashing). Best bet is to ditch the plastic buckets and switch to glass fermentors. It also would not hurt to get a worm gear on the hose where it meets the auto-siphon to minimize any potential O2 pickup during transfer to keg. As others have stated, make sure those kegs are purged of O2 prior to transferring the beer. One final note, you could try an extract recipe with distilled water to 100% rule out any water issues. I sure would. Good luck!

I'm still doubtful it's oxidation--when it's bad right from the get-go, oxidation hasn't had much time to do its thing.

 

[VApatriot]

Actually I do, I use it very liberally and saturate EVERYTHING with it. I use roughly 1/4 teaspoon per quart of water. I usually use the entire bottle on a brew day. I'll definitely try filling up a bucket next time.

I haven't read all the replies in this thread so I apologize if someone already mentioned this.

I think that your starsan mixture might be a little too strong. I ruined a 5 gallon batch of Kolsch by using starsan that was mixed too strong. What I do now is to mix up the starsan exactly as the bottle says, 1 oz to 5 gallons, usually 1/2 oz to 2 1/2 gallons and fill up my spray bottle out of the mix in the bucket. Haven't had any ruined batches since.

 

[BeardedBrews]

On one hand this thread feels like a treasure chest of useful information and tips, on the other hand I'm not sure we've actually confirmed the helpfulness of the tips

In the interest of keeping solicited but not verified solutions flowing I offer the following:

1. +1 to the person who posted this: http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/

2. +0.25 on oxidation, it's a good sounding candidate, but in reading your process it shouldn't be the issue.

3. +1 on "Brew a Kit" For all the beer you've made, it wouldn't hurt to buy an AG kit from Northern Brewer and see if your area just gets crappy or stale malt and hops.

4. +100 to the people who recommended having trained strangers drink your beer.

I had a batch of an IPA recipe that I have brewed 5-6 times (extract and all grain both) that just didn't taste "right" to me. I have a very hard time tasting my own beers because the flaws tend to get lost in my perception of what the beer "should have tasted like".

I filled a full growler and took it to a beer club meeting with a label on the handle "This IPA Needs Help!" I was amazed how many complete strangers picked up the growler, looked at the label, and said "ooh, Fun!"

The answer in my case was diacetyl, I had rushed this batch directly from primary (66F) to cold crash without giving it my usual few days at 70F first. That said, it was subtle enough that many of the tasters didn't pick it up. I got quite a few "yeah, something is off here but I'm not sure what", which at least made me feel better about myself.

 

[Batteman87]

Its usually minor and good fermentation takes care of it.

The yeast need the O2 to do their job during initial fermentation. The yeast will devour the O2 and fill the fermenter with alcohol and CO2. Unless the bucket just doesn't have enough seal on it and the 02 is seeping in.

Although it doesn't warrant when the yeast is done, what sort of action are you seeing in your airlock. Are you having to use a blow off tube and then switching to a smaller one? I would suspect o2 is seeping in somehow if you don't have a good seal once the yeast are done, and could be a culprit.

Could be picking up some microbes from somewhere for infection but does it have a ring around the bucket or on top of the beer?

 

[Batteman87]

Its usually minor and good fermentation takes care of it.

The yeast need the O2 to do their job during initial fermentation. The yeast with devour the O2 and fill the fermenter with alcohol and CO2. Unless the bucket just doesn't have enough seal on it and the 02 is seeping in.

Although it doesn't warrant when the yeast is done, what sort of action are you seeing in your airlock. Are you having to use a blow off tube and then switching to a smaller one? I would suspect o2 is seeping in somehow if you don't have a good seal once the yeast are done, and could be a culprit.

Could be picking up some microbes from somewhere for infection but does it have a ring around the bucket or on top of the beer?

 

[hobomoto]

I haven't read all the replies in this thread so I apologize if someone already mentioned this.

I think that your starsan mixture might be a little too strong. I ruined a 5 gallon batch of Kolsch by using starsan that was mixed too strong. What I do now is to mix up the starsan exactly as the bottle says, 1 oz to 5 gallons, usually 1/2 oz to 2 1/2 gallons and fill up my spray bottle out of the mix in the bucket. Haven't had any ruined batches since.

Wow, very informative thread! I don't have much to say, and I'm not the most experienced brewer myself but I thought I should point out that the star san concentration you've been using is actually a bit low, not high.

The directions are for 1oz to 5gal. 1oz = 30ml.

You are using 1/4 tsp per quart, or 1 tsp per gal in other words.

1tsp = 5ml, so you are using 25ml for 5gal instead of the reccomended 30ml.

So you are coming up 5ml short on your concentration for 5 gal.... That's not that far off really. Could have something to do with it, probably not.

 

[VApatriot]

@hobomoto is correct about 1 tsp per gallon. I was not thinking accurately I knew your starsan concentration was off, I was off in the wrong direction. All I know is that it really bummed me out to have to dump 2 cases of kolsch that should have been decent because I screwed up my starsan concentration and I'd hate for anyone else to make the same mistake.

 

[hobomoto]

@hobomoto is correct about 1 tsp per gallon. I was not thinking accurately I knew your starsan concentration was off, I was off in the wrong direction. All I know is that it really bummed me out to have to dump 2 cases of kolsch that should have been decent because I screwed up my starsan concentration and I'd hate for anyone else to make the same mistake.

Out of curiousity, because I usually error on the side of a stronger concentration (albiet only slightly), how strong was the mix and what effect did it have on the beer?

Thanks!

 

[VApatriot]

I waaaaay over concentrated the solution for sanitizing the bottles when I was bottling. Completely undrinkable. I'd rather not talk about it anymore, it was the first batch I had to dump, and it still makes me sad

 

[Aristotelian]

I always rinse after applying star san. (I know from the "confessions" thread that other people do it to). I know it is supposed to be no rinse, but I cannot bring myself to risk a chemical taste. Never had an off taste or infection.

 

[Citizen86]

I always rinse after applying star san. (I know from the "confessions" thread that other people do it to). I know it is supposed to be no rinse, but I cannot bring myself to risk a chemical taste. Never had an off taste or infection.

And many more people leave the foam and don't taste any chemical flavors

 

[Murphys_Law]

After reading through this thread I decided to take apart my ball valve. Yuck.

 

[Setsumi]

I did not read all so sorry if it is covered. Do you like beer at all? Do you enjoy other home brewers beers? Have you tried their recipes?

 

[sd_brewbie]

After reading through this thread I decided to take apart my ball valve. Yuck.

Now I am afraid... I always recirculate boiling wort for the last 10-15 minutes of the boil... Should kill any bacteria but might still be nasty. Maybe I prefer not to know.

 

[mprowland]

I did not read all so sorry if it is covered. Do you like beer at all? Do you enjoy other home brewers beers? Have you tried their recipes?

Like beer?...I love beer! I like everything from PBR all the way up to a double IPA. The reason why I started making beer again is because of other people's homebrew. My dad made terrible beer in the 80's, I made terrible beer in the early 2000's. I just thought all homebrew was terrible until a few years ago when I had some homebrew in the locker room with some of my hockey buddies. I couldn't believe how good their homebrew was! This inspired me to get back into it. Along the way though, I realized that I almost like the brewing process as much as I like drinking it. I haven't tried making any of their recipes. So far I've stuck to everything here under the recipe page. I look for recipes that have the most positive feedback. I typically read EVERY page under the recipe to get a general consensus. I have no doubt that there is one subtle little thing that's causing my issues. Hopefully I'll find it before too long.

 

[grrickar]

Almost all of my recipes are from here. I've seen many people brew and watch me brew. I'm as thorough and anal as the rest of them, if not more so. No one has been able to give me any feedback as to where the taste is from.

What water are you using? Is it hard or soft, local from the tap, filtered or ???

Trust me when I say it makes a HUGE difference. If I use my local tapwater, they doing sodium ion exchange softening at the local water treatment plant. That makes for horrible beer. Try using some filtered water and report back...

 

[mprowland]

What water are you using? Is it hard or soft, local from the tap, filtered or ???

Trust me when I say it makes a HUGE difference. If I use my local tapwater, they doing sodium ion exchange softening at the local water treatment plant. That makes for horrible beer. Try using some filtered water and report back...

I've purchased various types of bottled spring water for the first 25+ batches and have used built up R.O. water lately.

 

[SeraW]

This is probably of little help, but this thread has been an interesting sociological observation. Everybody wants to see you succeed.

I'm of the idea that it has GOT to be more than one thing. And an educated guess says both autolysis and oxidation. At their most mild, together, the combo can come off as "stale" or otherwise indescribably "off." Let it go longer and you may see how it can get worse. My reasoning is the very long primary in a bucket - buckets are more likely to leak air after completed fermentation and the long time could be contributing to yeast health issues. The possibility is also likely that you're particularly sensitive to the off flavor effects of each of these, which could be why others aren't detecting it as severely as you are.

My suggestion for what to do may get me lynched on this forum, but here goes: rack to a glass or PET carboy as soon as you can after terminal gravity is reached, making sure it's one that can be filled to the neck. Let it sit for a couple more weeks or until you're ready to keg it, but I'd say no more than 2 more weeks if you can help it.

 

[mprowland]

This is probably of little help, but this thread has been an interesting sociological observation. Everybody wants to see you succeed.

I'm of the idea that it has GOT to be more than one thing. And an educated guess says both autolysis and oxidation. At their most mild, together, the combo can come off as "stale" or otherwise indescribably "off." Let it go longer and you may see how it can get worse. My reasoning is the very long primary in a bucket - buckets are more likely to leak air after completed fermentation and the long time could be contributing to yeast health issues. The possibility is also likely that you're particularly sensitive to the off flavor effects of each of these, which could be why others aren't detecting it as severely as you are.

My suggestion for what to do may get me lynched on this forum, but here goes: rack to a glass or PET carboy as soon as you can after terminal gravity is reached, making sure it's one that can be filled to the neck. Let it sit for a couple more weeks or until you're ready to keg it, but I'd say no more than 2 more weeks if you can help it.

I think it's awesome the amount of responses I've gotten, I truly TRULY appreciate it! I don't mean to keep bumping this thread, I just want to respond to most of the questions that are asked. I figure if people are willing to help me, I should be willing to answer their questions.

Is there any reason why I can't transfer to a keg after two weeks? If I should rush the transfer, why not just get a glass fermentation vessel so I don't have to worry about oxidation if it sits on the yeast for 3-4 weeks?

 

[SeraW]

I think it's awesome the amount of responses I've gotten, I truly TRULY appreciate it! I don't mean to keep bumping this thread, I just want to respond to most of the questions that are asked. I figure if people are willing to help me, I should be willing to answer their questions.

Is there any reason why I can't transfer to a keg after two weeks? If I should rush the transfer, why not just get a glass fermentation vessel so I don't have to worry about oxidation if it sits on the yeast for 3-4 weeks?

There's no reason you can't keg at 2 weeks. My suggestion of secondary at Terminal Gravity would mean transferring at about 5 to 7 days in primary to minimize time on the yeast cake. It's not something I do at all, but I know of some brewers who are particularly sensitive to excess exposure to the yeast cake who prefer to get it off ASAP. In the off chance that that is your situation, the earlier transfer would help you narrow down that variable, and if you transfer to a properly filled secondary, your chances of oxidation should also be minimal.

 

[jr72023]

Buy a rubber mallet or a dead blow hammer to seal your fermenting bucket. Seal that puppy.

I use secondaries simply because I have a Big Mouth Bubbler for primary because I like to watch the action. I switch to a bucket for secondary when the action is no longer amusing and that frees up my primary for another round of action since I have several bucket secondaries.

Lid fit is not that great with the name brand buckets with short brims but better with the longer brimmed no-name food grade buckets. Still, they all seal when I use the persuader.

Just a thought.

Never left a batch on the yeast cake more than 10 days so I don't know if that could be a problem. Have noticed though, most people (not all) who push not using a secondary don't leave their batch on the yeast cake for 4 to 5 weeks but go to bottling/kegging much sooner. That seems to be the most glaring thing after having read this entire thread to date. The worst problems usually seem to have the simplest of answers. If I were you, I would start there. Secondary then bottle or early kegging with a purged keg.

Kinda new but only had one "bad" batch. It just wouldn't carbonate in the bottle. After five weeks it was still mostly flat. Decided to just drink it to free up the bottles and found that I was going to bed very early while doing so. Checked my notes and figured out that the yeast was most likely overwhelmed by the alcohol content, just like me. Started doing yeast starters even with dry yeast on high gravity beers and haven't had a problem since. Well, the high gravity beers now carbonate but I still go to bed early if I drink them like the normal stuff.

Don't know if this will help however, I do admire your determination. A lesser man would have called it quits long ago. I tip my hat to you, sir.

 

[Kiknjville]

Just read the whole thread. It's so cool that so many people are jumping in to try and help. I'm thinking it could be a combination of things as well. I'm just going to throw out a few things.

I noticed you didn't have any magnesium in your water profile. Perhaps a combination of less than optimal oxygen levels along with no magnesium is part of the problem.

I seem to recall a podcast that had someone from 5 Star on. He said that if the water/5 star solution is cloudy, then it is not going to be effective. RO/Distilled will last much longer than tab/spring. I have noticed that if I use tap water for sanitizing liquid, it becomes cloudy within a day.

I found that using 10% phosphoric acid is far easier to control the ph level than lactic acid (even with Brun water.) I also thought I could taste the lactic.


I'm subscribing so I can see this to the end. Good luck!!!

 

[thaymond]

I think it's awesome the amount of responses I've gotten, I truly TRULY appreciate it! I don't mean to keep bumping this thread, I just want to respond to most of the questions that are asked. I figure if people are willing to help me, I should be willing to answer their questions.

Is there any reason why I can't transfer to a keg after two weeks? If I should rush the transfer, why not just get a glass fermentation vessel so I don't have to worry about oxidation if it sits on the yeast for 3-4 weeks?

That's because we ALL believe that no one should endure 30 plus batches of mediocre or sub-par beer.

I'm following to see what the final result will be.

 

[Dcpcooks]

-I don't clean the strainer in any particular way. I guess I just use dish soap and of course, StarSan. I only started using this trying to troubleshoot this issue in the first place. I thought maybe excess trub or a lack of oxidation may be the cause.


I would not use dish soap to clean my brewing gear. Do you always use it?

 

[WNCBrewman]

There are a ton of posts and I'm not going to go through them all. I will say I experienced some consistent off favors that I believe we're because of oxidation. Almost every other batch when I was bottling. Even when I was extremely careful about it. I had a fermentation chamber with temp control and knew it wasn't a yeast or temperature or even a sanitation problem for that matter. Even went all grain biab to chase a better product. As soon as I started kegging and purging headspace in its final resting place, it was immediate. If I get an average beer now, it's because my mash wasn't on key, but I don't get that off flavor anymore. I have even brewed a few extract recipes with steeping grains lately that opened my eyes. It was because of the oxidation I was getting when bottling. Hope you find out. I did. Much better now. Just need more time to brew and a faster metabolism to break that beer belly down into a six pack. I have no dog in the fight for kegging, just worked wonders for me. Best part is that I can bottle out my control flow per licks if I want to bottle something!

 

[ZmannR2]

Almost everything pointed out has already been addressed by the OP (some people aren't reading the whole thread). And nothing here is so TERRIBLE that it would lead to 30+ batches of bad beer. It's just got to be something more basic than the usual suspects.

The beer tastes bad in the hydrometer, folks. It's not the kegs or bottles. It's somewhere during fermentation that it's getting tainted.

Infection, oxidation, or yeast autolysis are my suspicions - one of the above. I would stop fermenting in that bucket ASAP. It may have developed something that is getting into every beer, regardless of your sanitation. Put your next batch in a carboy and keg it after a 2 week primary, no longer.

This