stever1000's recirculating e-BIAB

[stever1000]

Your build is coming along nicely...Nice work! I agree with not needing a rims if you already have recirculation and do biab... also I would have done what was suggested earlier and moved the tee and temp probe to before the ballvalve... thats exactly what I did on my old mashtun seup... only I had the ballvalve on the side and you would be facing the back of the temp probe when standing in front of the kettle/cooler if that makes sense...

You should be able to step mash fairly quick with your setup too...

Thanks for the kind words, I will move my temp probe and ball valve around and see how it works. The one reason I have it in front of the ball valve is I can remove the probe and keep the kettle free of fittings while moving it from my closet to my kitchen in my apartment

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks for the kind words, I will move my temp probe and ball valve around and see how it works. The one reason I have it in front of the ball valve is I can remove the probe and keep the kettle free of fittings while moving it from my closet to my kitchen in my apartment

I could see how having the fittings off when moving from room to room would be nice..I just carried my boil kettle downstairs to my kitchen sink and cleaned it.. royal pain.. next house will have a basement or dedicated second brewroom with plumbing!

 

[stever1000]

I could see how having the fittings off when moving from room to room would be nice..I just carried my boil kettle downstairs to my kitchen sink and cleaned it.. royal pain.. next house will have a basement or dedicated second brewroom with plumbing!

That's the dream...dedicated brew space

 

[zgja2]

Brewed last night and still did not hit very good efficiencies again...

11lbs pilsner
4 oz saaz (3.4%) hops 2oz 60mins, 1oz 15mins 1oz 1min
90min mash
60min boil

7.5gallons into kettle for mashing
mash in at 160F (overshot my target of 148)
down to 148F 15 mins in, stirring a lot
held at 148/149F f
Total mash time 90mins

OG of 1.049 into fermenter...I need to measure my volume into fermenter tonight, ran out of time last night but marked it on my carboy so I can easily check it

I squeezed the hell out of the grain at the end of the mash

I lost at least 0.25gallons in my kettle because my hop pellets made a mess and my whirlpool didn't work

If I want 5gallons into my keg, I'm estimating the following:
1gallon boil off/evaporation
0.25g kettle loss (including hop absorption / pellets)
0.25g fermenter loss
0.66 grain absorption (.06 x 11lbs)
So I should have added 7.15gallons instead of 7.5 gallons

Also read I shouldn't use the SG feature on my refractometer, and I need to use a correction factor to the Brix. hmmmm
http://www.brewersfriend.com/how-to-determine-your-refractometers-wort-correction-factor/

A couple things that might help your process.

1. There is no reason to ever overshoot your mash temp with a setup like this. If you want to hit 148 just set strike temp to 148 and dough in. You will come in under and the pid will gently bring you up to strike. It is much better than overshooting and waiting half the mash for it to come down.
2. I would recommend using paint strainer bags as hop bags. They are available at home depot and very cheap. Then no need to worry about a whirlpool and sucking lots of hop debris into your pump and chiller. Just clip them to the side of your kettle with a binder clip.

 

[stever1000]

A couple things that might help your process.

1. There is no reason to ever overshoot your mash temp with a setup like this. If you want to hit 148 just set strike temp to 148 and dough in. You will come in under and the pid will gently bring you up to strike. It is much better than overshooting and waiting half the mash for it to come down.
2. I would recommend using paint strainer bags as hop bags. They are available at home depot and very cheap. Then no need to worry about a whirlpool and sucking lots of hop debris into your pump and chiller. Just clip them to the side of your kettle with a binder clip.

Both very good points. The overshooting is user error - I left the element on but turned the pump off so I could put my bag and grains in. The temp probe being outside and not circulating caused the element to keep firing so by the time I recirculate again the temp has risen. I could avoid this by turning the element off temporarily

Funny thing is I had a paint strainer bag in the kitchen for this purpose, but wanted to test the "whirlpool" arm I put together. It worked, but there was so much debris in the bottom it effected how much wort I could remove. I am building a hop spider this weekend, I have the parts just need to drill and assemble it

I still can't figure out why my efficiency is low...I calculated ~65% but need to double check...hopefully do another test batch Sunday. So far I'm up to 5 batches fermenting...

 

[zgja2]

are you crushing or LHBS? Either way double crush it and throw in some rice hulls. Finer crush will help with efficiency but can cause big problems when recirculating. Do you throttle back the pump quite a bit to prevent compressing the grain bed and removing wort faster than it can drain back through?

 

[stever1000]

are you crushing or LHBS? Either way double crush it and throw in some rice hulls. Finer crush will help with efficiency but can cause big problems when recirculating. Do you throttle back the pump quite a bit to prevent compressing the grain bed and removing wort faster than it can drain back through?

I'm crushing with my barley crusher, factory set to 0.039". I posted pictures of it a few weeks ago and people commented it looked okay so I didn't bother adjusting it, compensating with a longer mash to reach the bigger grains. I will try double crushing to see if there's a difference

I turn the pump back to a trickle so that the water has enough time to run through the grain bed. The recirc arm is locline so I get mixing of the top as it enters which I hope prevents the grain from compacting. I did have troubles recirculating last time, the pump was starved and I had to pull the bag up and give the grain a stir

 

[FattySparks]

I like everything that you have, except the enclosure. The electrician in me is cringing.

Seeing the cracks in the plastic, I just feel like it's going to fail and you're going to have a major issue.

Without researching I'm not sure what the better solution is, but there has to be one.

 

[stever1000]

I like everything that you have, except the enclosure. The electrician in me is cringing.

Seeing the cracks in the plastic, I just feel like it's going to fail and you're going to have a major issue.

Without researching I'm not sure what the better solution is, but there has to be one.

Excellent point!

There's one crack and that's at the PID when my enclosure fell off the table, anything else that looks like a crack is a scratch in the plastic.

The only issue I can see is if water get's on the enclosure and drips through the crack. This won't happen because the pot is far from the enclosure and I have a fan blowing the steam away.

Of course there are better solutions, but this was free versus $40+ for a plastic enclosure. I don't plan on this being long term, but it allows me to brew now instead of in the future while I wait for an affordable enclosure to become available.

 

[stever1000]

I don't have a drill press or vice...here's my simple method to make a hop spider:

Vice grips and a wood dowel make it easy. Took 15 mins start to finish.

No more hop problems

 

[zgja2]

I'm crushing with my barley crusher, factory set to 0.039". I posted pictures of it a few weeks ago and people commented it looked okay so I didn't bother adjusting it, compensating with a longer mash to reach the bigger grains. I will try double crushing to see if there's a difference

I turn the pump back to a trickle so that the water has enough time to run through the grain bed. The recirc arm is locline so I get mixing of the top as it enters which I hope prevents the grain from compacting. I did have troubles recirculating last time, the pump was starved and I had to pull the bag up and give the grain a stir

I use rice hulls in all my brews. Maybe half a pound +/- depending on how bit the beer is. It really helps in ensuring the pump is not starved.

 

[augiedoggy]

you shouldnt need the rice hulls... I use the same pumps but with a triple layer of filtering instead of the bag... I average 2.1gallons perminute flow while recirculating from the bottom through my rims down below and up through the locline sparge arm. I have a flowmeter inline to see how well my pump is working... I would venture to guess since you mentioned in another thread you had the pump get clogged that too much grain is getting through your bag somehow? Maybe try a length of braided stainless attached to your diptube as a last chance filter.

I have never used ricehulls ever. I have had efficiencies over 90% although my average is more like 80%

 

[zgja2]

you shouldnt need the rice hulls... I use the same pumps but with a triple layer of filtering instead of the bag... I average 2.1gallons perminute flow while recirculating from the bottom through my rims down below and up through the locline sparge arm. I have a flowmeter inline to see how well my pump is working... I would venture to guess since you mentioned in another thread you had the pump get clogged that too much grain is getting through your bag somehow? Maybe try a length of braided stainless attached to your diptube as a last chance filter.

I have never used ricehulls ever. I have had efficiencies over 90% although my average is more like 80%

"Triple layer of filtering instead of a bag" Please explain what you mean. Thanks!

Also never had a pump get clogged, no grain getting through. I was refering to the pump out pacing the wort flowing through the grain. This results in starving the pump. Could result in element being exposed to air. My real issue is the bayou classic steamer basket i am using in conjunction with the bag. The holes in the basket are just not large enough to allow maximum flow. Been meaning to enlarge the holes for a while but rice hulls have worked just fin in the mean time.

 

[stever1000]

I don't think I will have any problems with clogged pumps anymore with my hopsider (for hops) and placing a stainless steel ball at my pickup (for grain particles).

Hopefully brewing again soon to test out the spider and see if my re-circulation stops again

 

[augiedoggy]

"Triple layer of filtering instead of a bag" Please explain what you mean. Thanks!

Also never had a pump get clogged, no grain getting through. I was refering to the pump out pacing the wort flowing through the grain. This results in starving the pump. Could result in element being exposed to air. My real issue is the bayou classic steamer basket i am using in conjunction with the bag. The holes in the basket are just not large enough to allow maximum flow. Been meaning to enlarge the holes for a while but rice hulls have worked just fin in the mean time.

check out the pics in my build thread linked in my signature... I use a false bottom but below that I have a bazooka tube and inside the bazooka tube I have a stainless braided section which acts as the filter third stage filter that gets anything that gets past the first two layers of coarse filtration until the grainbed develops as its own filter.

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't think I will have any problems with clogged pumps anymore with my hopsider (for hops) and placing a stainless steel ball at my pickup (for grain particles).

Hopefully brewing again soon to test out the spider and see if my re-circulation stops again

just remember to not restrict flow with that ballvalve on the inlet side of the pump or you will have cavitation.

 

[stever1000]

just remember to not restrict flow with that ballvalve on the inlet side of the pump or you will have cavitation.

Yes I only use the PWM to control the flow

 

[stever1000]

Brewed last night and still did not hit very good efficiencies again...

11lbs pilsner
4 oz saaz (3.4%) hops 2oz 60mins, 1oz 15mins 1oz 1min
90min mash
60min boil

7.5gallons into kettle for mashing
mash in at 160F (overshot my target of 148)
down to 148F 15 mins in, stirring a lot
held at 148/149F f
Total mash time 90mins

OG of 1.049 into fermenter...I need to measure my volume into fermenter tonight, ran out of time last night but marked it on my carboy so I can easily check it

I squeezed the hell out of the grain at the end of the mash

I lost at least 0.25gallons in my kettle because my hop pellets made a mess and my whirlpool didn't work

If I want 5gallons into my keg, I'm estimating the following:
1gallon boil off/evaporation
0.25g kettle loss (including hop absorption / pellets)
0.25g fermenter loss
0.66 grain absorption (.06 x 11lbs)
So I should have added 7.15gallons instead of 7.5 gallons

Also read I shouldn't use the SG feature on my refractometer, and I need to use a correction factor to the Brix. hmmmm
http://www.brewersfriend.com/how-to-determine-your-refractometers-wort-correction-factor/

So I measured 5 gallons into the fermenter, and will probably lose 0.25gallon to trub when I transfer to my keg...so my boil off must be higher than 1gal/hour

So 7.5gallon water to 5gallon between boil off, absorption, and kettle losses. Yet I ended up with an OG of 1.049...

I didn't measure my pre-boil volume or OG so I don't have much data to check...

Lots of work to be done

 

[EDF713]

If you plug your numbers into biabcalculator.com, it looks like your boil off is 1.75 (assuming I entered it correctly), which is really high. I'm not an electric brewer (though I'm curious, hence following this thread), but I would hope you could cut back the power for a gentler boil. I use propane and keggle, and usually boil off a little over a gallon per hour.

Also, have you looked into water chemistry? I've improved my efficiency by doing three things - finer crush, more aggressive squeezing, and using water adjustment spreadsheets/salts/acid malt to reduce mash ph. If not, check out the brewing water chemistry primer - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460 .

I'm also curious where your FG will end up. If it's higher than expected one cause could be too high of a mash temp (besides yeast pitch rate and oxygen). Perhaps an experienced electric brewer can comment on potential issues with temp probe or pid accuracy...

 

[stever1000]

If you plug your numbers into biabcalculator.com, it looks like your boil off is 1.75 (assuming I entered it correctly), which is really high. I'm not an electric brewer (though I'm curious, hence following this thread), but I would hope you could cut back the power for a gentler boil. I use propane and keggle, and usually boil off a little over a gallon per hour.

Also, have you looked into water chemistry? I've improved my efficiency by doing three things - finer crush, more aggressive squeezing, and using water adjustment spreadsheets/salts/acid malt to reduce mash ph. If not, check out the brewing water chemistry primer - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460 .

I'm also curious where your FG will end up. If it's higher than expected one cause could be too high of a mash temp (besides yeast pitch rate and oxygen). Perhaps an experienced electric brewer can comment on potential issues with temp probe or pid accuracy...

Thanks for the info:

I have my PID set to 75% to keep the boil maintained, this seemed like a good balance but I will try 70% next time.

Where I live, the majority if brewers do nothing to the water and its fine (the water is really good here). I may try some additions to see if it makes a difference (the water is on the soft side though).

I hope it is to do with my mash temp hitting 160F then dropping, but I have had other problems with mash temp in other batches and it fermented really low still (though using saison yeast. 1.000 and 1.002 from 1.040 and 1.060 (table sugar addition) respectively. )

 

[EDF713]

Thanks for the info:

I have my PID set to 75% to keep the boil maintained, this seemed like a good balance but I will try 70% next time.

Where I live, the majority if brewers do nothing to the water and its fine (the water is really good here). I may try some additions to see if it makes a difference (the water is on the soft side though).

I hope it is to do with my mash temp hitting 160F then dropping, but I have had other problems with mash temp in other batches and it fermented really low still (though using saison yeast. 1.000 and 1.002 from 1.040 and 1.060 (table sugar addition) respectively. )

I bet you're on to something with the mash temp. From what I've read, it doesn't take long for high temps to denature the enzymes.

I envy your water. Our water is so crummy here that I just buy from one of those reverse osmosis water vending machines.

 

[stever1000]

I bet you're on to something with the mash temp. From what I've read, it doesn't take long for high temps to denature the enzymes.

I envy your water. Our water is so crummy here that I just buy from one of those reverse osmosis water vending machines.

I guess it will be hard to tell what happens because I used 3711 yeast so I won't be surprised if it goes from 1.049 down to <1.008

 

[stever1000]

If you plug your numbers into biabcalculator.com, it looks like your boil off is 1.75 (assuming I entered it correctly), which is really high. I'm not an electric brewer (though I'm curious, hence following this thread), but I would hope you could cut back the power for a gentler boil. I use propane and keggle, and usually boil off a little over a gallon per hour.

Also, have you looked into water chemistry? I've improved my efficiency by doing three things - finer crush, more aggressive squeezing, and using water adjustment spreadsheets/salts/acid malt to reduce mash ph. If not, check out the brewing water chemistry primer - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460 .

I'm also curious where your FG will end up. If it's higher than expected one cause could be too high of a mash temp (besides yeast pitch rate and oxygen). Perhaps an experienced electric brewer can comment on potential issues with temp probe or pid accuracy...

Based on that calculator, and assuming 0.25-0.5gallons of trub in my kettle (due to hop pellets,"flour", etc) and 5gallons into my fermenter, my boil off is 1.5-1.75 as you mention...

I will play around with my manual PID setting...

So with this high of boil off in 60mins (equivalent to a long boil?) my OG should have been higher, which points to an efficiency issue in my mash...

I'm hesitant to brew anything other than a simple single malt single hop recipe until I find the reason to my problem...

Max OG 1.077 (based on 35 points x 11 lbs / 5 gallons)
Actual OG 1.049 (11 lbs of grain, 5 gallon into fermenter)
efficiency 64% ouch

 

[EDF713]

So with this high of boil off in 60mins (equivalent to a long boil?) my OG should have been higher, which points to an efficiency issue in my mash...

Yeah, I reread your post on the mash and the 160 jumped out at me, that's a good starting point. The great thing about brewing is each test or experiment results in more beer!

If I didn't say it earlier, thanks for posting your setup. I'm toying with the idea of recirculating e-biab, and this shows a very attainable way to do it. It also reminds everyone that all systems take some care and patience to work out.

 

[stever1000]

Do I understand this correctly?

If I accidentally mashed at 160F for 10 mins until the temperature dropped, a certain percent of enzymes were denatured and unable to convert the starch to sugar during mash.

The rest of the conversion that occurred in the remaining 80mins converted a certain percent of the remaining starch to sugar, but because not all enzymes were available, not all the potential sugar was extracted from the grains, leading to my low OG?

So theoretically, if the rest of my process is okay (including crush, volumes, etc), and if I hit my target mash temp correctly, my efficiency should be higher in the future (i.e. 70-80%)?

 

[EDF713]

That was my thought, assuming your mash PH isn't too high (below 5.6). Here is why - from Palmer's How to Brew (http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/how-the-mash-works/the-starch-conversion-saccharification-rest):

"The temperature most often quoted for mashing is about 153°F. This is a compromise between the two temperatures that the two enzymes favor. Alpha works best at 154-162°F, while beta is denatured (the molecule falls apart) at that temperature, working best between 131-150°F."

 

[stever1000]

That was my thought, assuming your mash PH isn't too high (below 5.6). Here is why - from Palmer's How to Brew (http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/how-the-mash-works/the-starch-conversion-saccharification-rest):

"The temperature most often quoted for mashing is about 153°F. This is a compromise between the two temperatures that the two enzymes favor. Alpha works best at 154-162°F, while beta is denatured (the molecule falls apart) at that temperature, working best between 131-150°F."

Thanks! That's good info - I can't wait until the next version of the book comes out

 

[augiedoggy]

Do I understand this correctly?

If I accidentally mashed at 160F for 10 mins until the temperature dropped, a certain percent of enzymes were denatured and unable to convert the starch to sugar during mash.

The rest of the conversion that occurred in the remaining 80mins converted a certain percent of the remaining starch to sugar, but because not all enzymes were available, not all the potential sugar was extracted from the grains, leading to my low OG?

So theoretically, if the rest of my process is okay (including crush, volumes, etc), and if I hit my target mash temp correctly, my efficiency should be higher in the future (i.e. 70-80%)?

I have done the same a couple of times and the result was lower efficiency... I have learned its always better to strike slightly lower if anything and ramp up (I use my rims but you can use direct heat with your setup). a lot of conversion happens in 10 minutes... some people only mash for as little as 20 mins from what Ive read here..

 

[stever1000]

Thanks for the info, I have everything set up in the kitchen ready to brew after work... I hope I have ironed out some of the problems and I'm aiming for at least 70% efficiency this time...

 

[stever1000]

another test batch tonight...failed batch 5/5

Conditioned my grains with 100ml of water and kept the mill at 0.039"
The husks remained intact, pretty cool!

I used
11lbs of pale 2-row
4 oz cascade pellets

Mashed for 90mins at 148F while recirculating. This time i hit my mash temp spot on and flucuated between 147-149 for the 90mins. I stirred 3-4 times, and had my locline attached to the lid for recirculation below the surface of the water. Didn't notice a stuck mash this time, the conditioned grains helped. Pump was turned all the way down

7.5gallon of water into kettle
~half way between 6.75 and 7 gallons post mash with 9.2 brix (1.037)
(pretty near 0.66gal if I estimate .06gal/lb grain absorption)
Boil 60 mins
post boil volume = 5.25galons at 12.2 brix (1.049)
boil off = 1.6gallon/hour with PID at 70% (still too high)

max points: (11*35/5.25) = 73 points
actual points: 1.049 = 49
effiency: 66.8%

whhhhhyyyyyyy??? All this effort and I only got SG 1.049 / 66.8% efficiency

I mashed for 90mins, held a consistent mash temp with recirculation, no stuck mash, I put my water profile into Bru'n water and everything checked out fine with no need to add anything. Other brewers in my area don't need to adjust pH.

I'm tempted to go the opposite way now and crush very fine and not recirculate to see if there is a difference