stever1000's recirculating e-BIAB

[whovous]

Not recirculating has gotta reduce your efficiency, doesn't it?

I brewed over the weekend and my Barley Crusher just refused to hold a setting so I wound up using my cheapo Corona style mill instead. I'd only used it once before and that time I wound up with 88% efficiency. It was a lot more labor intensive than with the BC, but I got an extremely fine grind. I started with a 20 minute rest (6 brix) and then recirculated for an hour. I reached 10 brix after fifteen minutes and stayed there for the rest of the hour.

I did not do the math as carefully as you did, but BrewSmith tells me I wound up around 65%. This is definitely frustrating!

 

[augiedoggy]

^ I feel your pain... not sure if it was the gap on my mill but I got an extremely low 67% on the winter warmer I brewed last night... same with the bohemian pils I Brewed last week... in the past I have had efficiencies as high at 90% still trying to narrow down the issue.

 

[whovous]

Does mashing too high explain any of this? How high is too high?

 

[augiedoggy]

Does mashing too high explain any of this? How high is too high?

Not to hijack Stever1000's thread but, yes it would... Look back one page of this thread... Most people mash between 148 and 156 the higher you go the less fermentable sugars but more body the beer with usually have.. the lower will net you stronger alchohol but thinner tasting with less body.

 

[stever1000]

Not recirculating has gotta reduce your efficiency, doesn't it?

Probably right, unless I grind the grain very finely

I will probably take readings every 15min during the mash to check the progress, and buy some iodophur to test the conversion. So frustrating I am mashing 90mins and not extracting all the sugar

 

[EDF713]

Well, unless your temp is different than your probe thinks it is, or you have weak grain, I'm not sure what else to check. Otherwise grind is good, water is good, I take it you're still squeezing/draining the bag like you want to kill it. Sorry you're still having issues.

 

[stever1000]

Well, unless your temp is different than your probe thinks it is, or you have weak grain, I'm not sure what else to check. Otherwise grind is good, water is good, I take it you're still squeezing/draining the bag like you want to kill it. Sorry you're still having issues.

Sorry I didn't mean to sound frustrated at anyone, just myself

I may try changing my probe location again.
I will have to recheck my probe accuracy. Last time I checked it was fine

I am investigating pH meters to test my mash pH. I didn't know single malt single hops needed an acidic adjustment so that may be another culprit...

 

[EDF713]

Sorry I didn't mean to sound frustrated at anyone, just myself

I may try changing my probe location again.
I will have to recheck my probe accuracy. Last time I checked it was fine

I am investigating pH meters to test my mash pH. I didn't know single malt single hops needed an acidic adjustment so that may be another culprit...

No worries, I think it came across how you meant. I got 60% eff on my first all grain brew and was frustrated!

At the least I would play around with Bru'n water or EZ water calculator to see if your water and grain bill get in the ballpark before buying a ph meter (unless you can borrow one). Pils malt doesn't add much acid so it's worth checking. It's even more important for BIAB than 3 vessel all grain since you use all the water for the mash.

 

[stever1000]

No worries, I think it came across how you meant. I got 60% eff on my first all grain brew and was frustrated!

At the least I would play around with Bru'n water or EZ water calculator to see if your water and grain bill get in the ballpark before buying a ph meter (unless you can borrow one). Pils malt doesn't add much acid so it's worth checking. It's even more important for BIAB than 3 vessel all grain since you use all the water for the mash.

Thanks for your help, it is wonderful to have such a helpful community of like minded people

I checked into Bru'n water but I will do it in more detail today since I am at loss what else to check

 

[whovous]

I've just gone back through this entire thread. Our systems are fairly similar. I use a 6 gallon pot and a Chugger pump (overkill!) with a second valve to restrict output flow. I also have a plate chiller and a commercial PID, but otherwise, we seem to be doing the same things and having similar problems. The first thing I plan to do is to devote more attention to making sure that temps never ramp up on me. Turning off the pump without ramping the PID down or off is a definite no-no.

I also have a Barley Crusher, like you do. I think the factory setting is too high for eBIAB. However, I've found that when I change settings, the changes don't stay changed. The problem got bad enough that I returned to my very annoying Corona mill for my latest brew. Issues with the grind can definitely affect your numbers.

I wonder if you can do better than a pizza pan for your false bottom. Take a look at Bobby's false bottom. That mesh screen allows a lot more circulation than does your pizza pan. More circulation should mean more efficiency. I was able to make my own from a baking screen thanks to my small pot. It might be harder to find something big enough to DIY with your pot, but I suspect your DIY skills are quite a bit better than mine.

 

[TexasWine]

Thanks for your help, it is wonderful to have such a helpful community of like minded people

I checked into Bru'n water but I will do it in more detail today since I am at loss what else to check

Take a look at Brewer's Friend pH prediction tool as well. That's my default tool.

I've never checked it against a pH meter, but everything I've read said that it's close enough. And my beers have turned out tasty!

 

[stever1000]

Here's the water calculator results with my tap water and smash...

 

[stever1000]

I wonder if you can do better than a pizza pan for your false bottom. Take a look at Bobby's false bottom. That mesh screen allows a lot more circulation than does your pizza pan. More circulation should mean more efficiency. I was able to make my own from a baking screen thanks to my small pot. It might be harder to find something big enough to DIY with your pot, but I suspect your DIY skills are quite a bit better than mine.

That's a good point. I was hoping there were enough holes that it would drain freely
Maybe not the case as you mention

 

[cbier60]

Your starting water profile is extremely low mineral level, plus I'm surprised to see ppm to such precision. Are you sure you have the units right? I have almost Pilsen water and the levels are much higher than that. Regardless, with BIAB (high qt/lb) and a simple base malt bill, your pH will be high w/o any mineral or acid adjustments. That may certainly be impacting your efficiency, especially if your mash pH is even higher than 5.7.

Just a gut feel, but I doubt the false bottom is an issue. I get much better BIAB efficiency than that w/o recirculation, similar crush. and just an occasional stir.

 

[EDF713]

Here's the water calculator results with my tap water and smash...

Wow, I have water envy. It should be a crime NOT to brew with that water.

I've been adding acid malt (2% of grain bill), and a teaspoon each of gypsum and calcium chloride to RO water, and I've been very happy with the results (besides a cream ale fermented too low with S5 that tasted like peaches, not a water issue). The only time I didn't use the acid malt was for an oatmeal stout that didn't need it. I think that was the culprit of my earlier efficiency problems, went from 60% to 65-75% with 70+% the norm.

 

[stever1000]

Your starting water profile is extremely low mineral level, plus I'm surprised to see ppm to such precision. Are you sure you have the units right? I have almost Pilsen water and the levels are much higher than that. Regardless, with BIAB (high qt/lb) and a simple base malt bill, your pH will be high w/o any mineral or acid adjustments. That may certainly be impacting your efficiency, especially if your mash pH is even higher than 5.7.

Just a gut feel, but I doubt the false bottom is an issue. I get much better BIAB efficiency than that w/o recirculation, similar crush. and just an occasional stir.

Yes the units are right, I took it directly from my area water report. All units are mg/L which equal ppm. The only one I converted was magnesium which was 168 ug/L so I divided by 1000 to get .168 mg/L.

It has been said on a few different occaision that Vancouver has near RO water. It tastes quite delightful

 

[whovous]

Your starting water profile is extremely low mineral level, plus I'm surprised to see ppm to such precision. Are you sure you have the units right? I have almost Pilsen water and the levels are much higher than that. Regardless, with BIAB (high qt/lb) and a simple base malt bill, your pH will be high w/o any mineral or acid adjustments. That may certainly be impacting your efficiency, especially if your mash pH is even higher than 5.7.

Just a gut feel, but I doubt the false bottom is an issue. I get much better BIAB efficiency than that w/o recirculation, similar crush. and just an occasional stir.

Different systems have different requirements, but if you have a recirculating system, recirculating matters. The more freely it circulates, the less likely a stuck mash and the more likely efficiency will be improved. Better circulation can never harm efficiency, and it might help.

 

[TexasWine]

Better circulation can never harm efficiency, and it might help.

There's always and unless...

Unless you have channeling. Unfortunately the rate of circulation alone isn't an indication of how well your system is functioning.

 

[whovous]

If you have channeling, will better circulation make things worse?

My real point was that a Bobby style screen is better than a pizza pan for eBIAB, and I am pretty sure we agree on that one.

 

[EDF713]

We know the mash ph can be improved, I say add some acid malt and salts before plunking down more money for a new false bottom.

 

[stever1000]

We know the mash ph can be improved, I say add some acid malt and salts before plunking down more money for a new false bottom.

hopefully I can borrow a pH meter and find out for sure

 

[stever1000]

Since I am mashing for 90mins, would iodophur be of any benefit to test conversion to reduce my mash time until I find the root of my efficiency problem?

 

[cbier60]

Bandwidth is not an issue as the dialog between host and Arduino is terse...

Cheers!

terse: sparing in the use of words; abrupt.
synonyms: brief, short, to the point, concise

I assume you meant "slow" or low-speed, since that's what is important wrt bandwidth.

Since I am mashing for 90mins, would iodophur be of any benefit to test conversion to reduce my mash time until I find the root of my efficiency problem?

My expectation is that conversion is completed long before 90 minutes. However, the reason one uses a long mash for BIAB is that the mash time is really the mash + sparge + lauter time. However, with a proper recirc, you should be improving the ability to rinse the grains. So, once you get it all figured out, you may be able to reduce time with little impact on efficiency. However, since your efficiency is low now, I'm not sure how little your efficiency would suffer further if you reduced the time.

I'm still skeptical of pH. I don't recall if you said, but have you done any dark beers, which would have lower mash pH, and seen the same issues?

 

[stever1000]

I'm still skeptical of pH. I don't recall if you said, but have you done any dark beers, which would have lower mash pH, and seen the same issues?

I have not done any dark beers, but that is a good idea. I will pick up some specialty grains and see what my efficiency becomes

 

[BrunDog]

hopefully I can borrow a pH meter and find out for sure

You don't need a pH meter. I have one and Bru N Water is always right on predicting as long as your inputs are accurate. For light beers, even with Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, you will need some acid. It will amount to a few mL of lactic acid, or acid malt. That expense is much more worth the $ than the meter.

 

[stever1000]

You don't need a pH meter. I have one and Bru N Water is always right on predicting as long as your inputs are accurate. For light beers, even with Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, you will need some acid. It will amount to a few mL of lactic acid, or acid malt. That expense is much more worth the $ than the meter.

Really good info - I will get some of those ingredients tomorrow for my next test brew

 

[stever1000]

You don't need a pH meter. I have one and Bru N Water is always right on predicting as long as your inputs are accurate. For light beers, even with Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, you will need some acid. It will amount to a few mL of lactic acid, or acid malt. That expense is much more worth the $ than the meter.

I bought 2 lbs acid malt as well as gypsum and calcium chloride to experiement with Bru'N water and my single mash test batches
I will use acidulated malt to about 1-2% (1-4 ounces in a typical 5-6 gallon batch.) and then adjust further with gypsum and calcium chloride if needed

I also bought some specialty grains (2.5lbs) to make a black IPA, so I will also test how the specialty grains effect the pH and HOPEFULLY my efficiency...

Fingers crossed the above 2 solve my low efficiency

 

[EDF713]

I bought 2 lbs acid malt as well as gypsum and calcium chloride to experiement with Bru'N water and my single mash test batches
I will use acidulated malt to about 1-2% (1-4 ounces in a typical 5-6 gallon batch.) and then adjust further with gypsum and calcium chloride if needed

I also bought some specialty grains (2.5lbs) to make a black IPA, so I will also test how the specialty grains effect the pH and HOPEFULLY my efficiency...

Fingers crossed the above 2 solve my low efficiency

Good to hear. You won't be disappointed, it made a difference for me. Efficiency aside, taste can improve, too.

 

[stever1000]

Made the Darth Vader Black IPA today...followed the grain bill:
12 lbs 2 row
1 lb crystal 8
1 lb carafa special II
0.5 lb amber/brown malt
8 gallons of water to start....
Pre boil 7.25gallons 12.4 Brix / 1.050 SG
Cooled wort pre fermenter over 5.5 gallons at 13.9 brix / 1.056

I assumed a boil off of 1.5 gallons which may have been too high since my pre and post boil gravities are so close
Also used 0.08gallon/lb for grain absorption (1.16gallon) but only lost 0.75 gallons from my original 8 gallons

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Sorry I didn't mean to sound frustrated at anyone, just myself

I may try changing my probe location again.
I will have to recheck my probe accuracy. Last time I checked it was fine

I am investigating pH meters to test my mash pH. I didn't know single malt single hops needed an acidic adjustment so that may be another culprit...

Nice setup. I have a 3 full vessel E-brewing setup. Last weekend I did a BIAB in my old 28qt turkey fryer brew kettle. After 40-50 batches, this was my first time at full BIAB and I was a little disappointed. I am use to 80-90% with my HLT, MASH Kettle, Boil Kettle, RIMS setup. I feel your pain. My efficiency was only around 65%. It was an experiment as I did it using my controller with a stand-alone, glass top, drop in stove on a metal step stool. the stove has an oversized burner that is as big as my kettle and got all 6 gallons boiling pretty well. I used an adapter cord that would plug into my controller panel and controlled the whole stove. It worked great. and cleanup was so much easier. RDWHAHB.

I think your efficiencies could be affected by a lot of things. I am not sure re-circulation matters a lot for efficiency in BIAB, as long as your element keeps the temp correct. Although it might keep the temps consistent throughout the grain, you can always stir it. I see your kettle has a welded port above the valve. Can you get a probe or thermometer for there as a double check or put in a thermal-well?

As mentioned by a couple others, the first thing I thought of was that your probes might need adjustment/compensating. Have you calculated your probe variance? This is the difference between what the probe puts out and the actual reading. You set this by putting the probe in boiling water and see what the temp it measures is. Boiling water is achieved at 212 degrees at Sea level. It will not get hotter that that unless it is under pressure. I think boiling temp goes down 1 degree for every 1000 feet above sea level you are (Google this to make sure). I do this on all my probes and label them with it. You do have to remember to set the PID for the probe you are using.

On your My-Pin PID you can hold the "Set" button for 4-5 seconds and it will go into its setup mode. Click the "Set" button click through the settings. The button next to it changes the digit you are setting and the Up/Down arrows change the setting (you already know this because it is just like when you are setting the temp). Press "Set" again to set it and Hold "Set" for 4-5 seconds to exit the settings (or wait 30 seconds).

When in the settings mode, keep clicking the set button until you see P-V, I think (P-?). It will be 5 or 6 clicks in. You can use this setting to compensate for probe variances. If your probe measures 10 degrees high you would set it to 10. If your probe measures 10 degrees low you set it at -10. As I mentioned above, check all of your probes. The settings will be different for every probe.

As you said, you may also want to look at your water chemistry. I would go ahead and get a PH meter and/or some test strips. You can get a cheap meter on e-bay for $8 shipped. I try to mash at around 5.0-5.2.

I think your mill setting at .039 is probably OK. If you have some feeler gauges you can check to make sure it is right. If not, go to an auto parts store and pick some up. I have heard of people using anywhere from .032 - .040 and claiming that they are happy with it and getting good efficiencies. Some people say .035 is good for BIAB. I think my corona mill is at .035 (I have an 8mm bolt with a socket/power drill adapter I use to save my shoulder).

One last thing. Some people mentioned boil off and not wanting to lose wort. You are actually loosing steam and chemicals. I saw a BeerSmith youtube with Randy Mosher (I think), where he said that you really need a good rolling boil to get out all of the chemicals you don't want. Anything less is not good enough. You can always add water back into the boil at the end to reach a volume.

Keep us updated. Cheers!