Steeping / Mashing Oats

[HeyGuero!]

I've scrounged the forum regarding oats and I haven't found an answer to this:

Steep or Mash for body and complexity NOT fermentables. I have Apple Juice and honey for fermentable sugars.

My LHB budget is cut off for now so Maltodextrin or DME is out of the equation. I have oats at home.... so much oats.

I saw the Doin' The Most (YouTube channel) guy roast and cold steep oats (and pearl barley) as part of a braggot recipe and I thought, "huh... could I do that for a cider / cyser?"

Appreciate any feed back or just smack me upside the head and point me to the right thread.

 

[bracconiere]

i mean in the terms of body, i'd do it like a rue for thickening a gravy....maybe toast them, then ad just enough water to thicken, then add that to the cider/cyser....same proccess as thining out a gravy, only kinda in reverse....(just wouldn't use the butter)

 

[HeyGuero!]

i mean in the terms of body, i'd do it like a rue for thickening a gravy....maybe toast them, then ad just enough water to thicken, then add that to the cider/cyser....same proccess as thining out a gravy, only kinda in reverse....(just wouldn't use the butter)

Thanks! That's simple enough.

Totally adding butter. I do what I want.

 

[bracconiere]

Totally adding butter. I do what I want.

you know apple butter might be better then water for a liquid! (i think outside the box! ) i'd say just lower the heat in the pan after toasting the oats to get the green out of them so it wouldn't burn...only need 150f to get oat starch to gel, like wheat and barley....

 

[HeyGuero!]

you know apple butter might be better then water for a liquid! (i think outside the box! ) i'd say just lower the heat in the pan after toasting the oats to get the green out of them so it wouldn't burn...only need 150f to get oat starch to gel, like wheat and barley....

Apple butter is not butter and yet... it is the best butter.

150F - Got it. Thanks. Didn't even think about temp.

How long should I hold that temp? 30 min?

 

[bracconiere]

Apple butter is not butter and yet... it is the best butter.

150F - Got it. Thanks. Didn't even think about temp.

How long should I hold that temp? 30 min?

i'd say pan toast in a dry pan until fragrent? and doesn't smell 'raw' 'green'....then let it cool....but if you're not using apple butter and just water, i don't think there would be any concern with burning the apple....150f will thicken it, by geling the starch, which makes the starch water soluble...so you could stir that paste into the cider for a thickening effect...but just a bit? not trying to make gravy i don't think? just some gel'd starch for mouth feel? kinda like back sweeting, but with unfermentable starch?

 

[HeyGuero!]

i'd say pan toast in a dry pan until fragrent? and doesn't smell 'raw' 'green'....then let it cool....but if you're not using apple butter and just water, i don't think there would be any concern with burning the apple....150f will thicken it, by geling the starch, which makes the starch water soluble...so you could stir that paste into the cider for a thickening effect...but just a bit? not trying to make gravy i don't think? just some gel'd starch for mouth feel? kinda like back sweeting, but with unfermentable starch?

Thanks! Here goes!

 

[bracconiere]

Thanks! Here goes!

keep me posted!

 

[HeyGuero!]

keep me posted!

will do for sure. And thanks very much for the help.

 

[bracconiere]

will do for sure. And thanks very much for the help.

hey your update will help me! i'm just going on my homemalting experience, knowing grains need to be kilned, or they taste like crap....and the geling temp of starch, and the fact you're looking for an unfermentable body builder....

 

[HeyGuero!]

hey your update will help me! i'm just going on my homemalting experience, knowing grains need to be kilned, or they taste like crap....and the geling temp of starch, and the fact you're looking for an unfermentable body builder....

I will help you help me help you.
Unfermentable body builder - that's the way to put it. I just hope it doesn't get infected or grody.

 

[bracconiere]

Unfermentable body builder - that's the way to put it. I just hope it doesn't get infected or grody.

heat should sterilize the oats, and gel them...and adding them while hot to the juice, i wouldn't think is any worse then putting the juice in the fermenter in the first place?

(what size batch are we talking about?)

 

[HeyGuero!]

heat should sterilize the oats, and gel them...and adding them while hot to the juice, i wouldn't think is any worse then putting the juice in the fermenter in the first place?

(what size batch are we talking about?)

Batch size can be anywhere from 1gallon to 3 gallon.

And that begs the question - how much oats? I guess, how much per gallon of juice?

Also, I want to make sure I have the process down here.
- Toast oats in pan
- Add water (or juice?)
- Bring up to 150 (For how long? 30 min?)
- Add that goop (strained goop or with oats?) to juice
- Ferment as usual?

 

[bracconiere]

Batch size can be anywhere from 1gallon to 3 gallon.

And that begs the question - how much oats? I guess, how much per gallon of juice?

Also, I want to make sure I have the process down here.
- Toast oats in pan
- Add water (or juice?)
- Bring up to 150 (For how long? 30 min?)
- Add that goop (strained goop or with oats?) to juice
- Ferment as usual?

http://www.starch.dk/isi/tables/density.asp
and i'd think you're shooting for around 1.008-10 or so....and here is how much starch is in flaked oats, acording to the usda...

https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/368739/nutrients
so 67gs carbs per 100 grams oats...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram_per_cubic_metre
honestly at this point i'd have to tag @doug293cz he likes this and could help with this more to getting an exact 1.010 gravity with something that has 67gs starch per 100gs......i'm looking at these charts figuring...

i think like an ounce of oats in a gallon would give you the 2.7% geld starch in solution? not really sure though...i'm trying to wrap my head around kg/m3...

 

[bracconiere]

honestly man, i'm sure i can boil some starch and test this for you right now.....i only have to use some flour and a cup of water to get a hydro sample reading.....

 

[HeyGuero!]

http://www.starch.dk/isi/tables/density.asp
and i'd think you're shooting for around 1.008-10 or so....and here is how much starch is in flaked oats, acording to the usda...

https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/368739/nutrients
so 67gs carbs per 100 grams oats...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram_per_cubic_metre
honestly at this point i'd have to tag @doug293cz he likes this and could help with this more to getting an exact 1.010 gravity with something that has 67gs starch per 100gs......i'm looking at these charts figuring...

i think like an ounce of oats in a gallon would give you the 2.7% geld starch in solution? not really sure though...i'm trying to wrap my head around kg/m3...

I thiiiink I'm tracking with you. Starting to go over my head though with all the decimals. But 1oz oats / gallon I can totally understand. Seems like it would become sludge pretty fast.

 

[HeyGuero!]

honestly man, i'm sure i can boil some starch and test this for you right now.....i only have to use some flour and a cup of water to get a hydro sample reading.....

I appreciate that, but no need to do it right now - that data might be wasted on me anyway. I barely understand gravity and how to use a hydrometer. At any rate, I'm working on my garage and truck atm. This brew is in the que and will happen within the next 3-5 days.

Really appreciate it though. I'm totally cool with going off the 1oz per gallon and seeing if I win or have to drink sludge. lol.

 

[bracconiere]

I appreciate that, but no need to do it right now - that data might be wasted on me anyway. I barely understand gravity and how to use a hydrometer. At any rate, I'm working on my garage and truck atm. This brew is in the que and will happen within the next 3-5 days.

Really appreciate it though. I'm totally cool with going off the 1oz per gallon and seeing if I win or have to drink sludge. lol.

well had a blast boiling some lentil flour which has 63gs starch per 100...8gs boiled in 2 cups water (one pound) then watered down to 2 pounds with another two cups to cool it....then temp corrected, gave me a solution with a gravity of 1.004.....


i could taste it and slush and spit to give you a idea of the mouth feel, but i doubt boiled lentil flour would be tasty (thus the recomendation of toasting the oats in a dry pan to toast! )

 

[madscientist451]

I've scrounged the forum regarding oats and I haven't found an answer to this:

Steep or Mash for body and complexity NOT fermentables. I have Apple Juice and honey for fermentable sugars.

My LHB budget is cut off for now so Maltodextrin or DME is out of the equation. I have oats at home.... so much oats.

Its the Holiday season, I have extra malted oats and barley, I'll send you some on my dime, you mash it with the oats you have, ferment with your apple juice and honey, and then post the recipe/results here?

 

[HeyGuero!]

Its the Holiday season, I have extra malted oats and barley, I'll send you some on my dime, you mash it with the oats you have, ferment with your apple juice and honey, and then post the recipe/results here?

Sure! Thanks!

 

[madscientist451]

OK, PM the address and I'll get it moving on Friday.

 

[bracconiere]

OK, PM the address and I'll get it moving on Friday.

you are going to be so dissapointed on shipping and, a lost soul.....

 

[Kees]

Just for my understanding: you are going to add starch for body. Starch is a polymer of sugars. Unless you pasteurize the cider after adding the starch or oats you will most likely get a second fermentation creating some sort of a cross between beer and cider.

 

[HeyGuero!]

Just for my understanding: you are going to add starch for body. Starch is a polymer of sugars. Unless you pasteurize the cider after adding the starch or oats you will most likely get a second fermentation creating some sort of a cross between beer and cider.

- Right. Just want to add body.
- Totally ok with pasteurizing to halt any secondary fermentation and thanks for the tip - didn’t think about that.
- Beer Cider hybrid is not THE main goal (why I’m not married to mashing the oats with barley or something) BUT I’m totally ok with that happening too as a side effect.

This whole thread sort of comes from the Grocery store beer threads and content out there on the netter-webs. I can’t really spend anymore on ingredients. I do have piles of oats. Can I pull off this caper with just oats?

 

[HeyGuero!]

Just want to add that since I've posted this, there have been lots of "oats in cider" posts that have been popping up in the "Similar threads" box. Granted, they're older threads with few-ish responses but I will be digging into them for any nuggets I can get but so far they all talk about mashing for starch conversion which I am not after.

 

[MaxStout]

OK, PM the address and I'll get it moving on Friday.

As long as you're sending some oats, do you have a little maltodextrin to include in the package? It might be cool if @HeyGuero! would like to try a comparison, since he mentioned not having any on hand in the OP.

I'd send some if I had any.

 

[HeyGuero!]

As long as you're sending some oats, do you have a little maltodextrin to include in the package? It might be cool if @HeyGuero! would like to try a comparison, since he mentioned not having any on hand in the OP.

I'd send some if I had any.

Really there is no need to send me anything. I appreciate it though. This is an issue of waiting out the next 2-3 pay periods. We do a zero budget in my home and brew money comes eventually in that cycle.

My current plan is to make a gallon with some toasted oats and see if I win. By the time that sucker bottles I'll be able to pick up some maltodextrin. Somewhere in this Epic Journey for The Fullest Bodied Cider (cider, cider cider.... *echo) I will stray into Graf land here and there I'm sure though Graf is not my goal.

I'll post the recipe here the day of brewing and then I'll follow up in this thread with the results.

 

[madscientist451]

Alright, I was gonna use my day off to go to the post office, but now have to work anyway so I won't have time.
Also, I realized that you aren't trying to get any fermentables out of the oats, but instead trying to make an unfermentable wort to help with body/mouthfeel. I'd just heat up some water to 160 and chuck some oats in there and leave it overnight and check the gravity in the morning. Maybe a pound of oats in a gallon of water?

 

[HeyGuero!]

Ok. 1lb of oats toasted.

Going to get a gallon of water up to 160-ish then steep the oats for an hour, cool then strain.

Here’s my main recipe. I’ve done 5 batches of this and it’s always a winner. I’m always tweaking this recipe so it seems like a logical candidate.

Reindeer Snuggles:
-Primary-
1 gal apple juice
2c B sugar
1c chopped raisins
.5c molasses
.5c honey
2tbsp Mulling spices

New addition - toasted steeped oat mucus.

- Secondary-
1c Oak chips
Frozen apple chunks

- Bottling -
1/2 cup honey
Stabilize (still not sparkling)

So here we go. I’ll be brewing it up later tonight around 8/9ish PST so if anyone has any ideas to add to the recipe let me know!

thanks everybody for the help! Happy new year!

 

[PCABrewing]

well had a blast boiling some lentil flour which has 63gs starch per 100...8gs boiled in 2 cups water (one pound) then watered down to 2 pounds with another two cups to cool it....then temp corrected, gave me a solution with a gravity of 1.004.....

Bracconiere you are quite the kitchen chemist and a heck of an experimenter!