Steeping grains + late addition LME

[kiteD]

I need to go double check my source, but I thought I read John Palmer say to steep your grains in no more water than a 1gal to 1lb grains ratio*. In the interest of saving time** I decided to steep the grains in some of the water while boiling extract and hops in another. I'd then bring the steep water to boil and combine.

Later, when I started doing late extract additions, I've just steeped as long as I could, and then added the extract to the steep water. I bring it to a rolling boil in order to not slow down the boil timer on the main batch and get a good hot break. Finally, I combine the two at the last minutes before flame out.

Besides the boil gravity effect on IBU's, does anyone see issues or gotchas to this method?

*though he didn't really explain why
**before being schooled in the art by Steven Deeds. That's next! https://www.homebrewtalk.com/15-minute-brew-process.html

 

[Calder]

I don't really understand what you are doing. Your post is confusing.

The reason for steeping in a smaller volume of water is to keep the ph low. High ph can extract tannins. Personally I don't think it is noticeable with a small amount of grains. Use what ever volume you like. If you remove the grains by 170 F, you really minimize the potential to extract tannins.

A secondary effect of steeping in a small volume of water is that if you have any base malts, or mashing grains, you might get some conversion (and actually mash).

 

[kiteD]

Sorry, trying to stay succinct.

Pot 1 is 2.5 gal and is warmed to 150-170 for stepping grains with about 1 gal water per lb of grain.

At the same time, pot 2 is a full brew kettle and has the balance of a 5 gal batch worth of water (plus some extra for boil off.) Pot 2 is brought to a boil. Hops are added and the 60 minute timer is started.

At about 30 minutes into the boil, pot 1 has steeping grain bag removed and the remainder of extract added. It's then brought to a boil. Hopefully it boils right about 55 minutes on the timer.

Combine pots.

The alternative is, steep grains for 30 minutes. Then add some extract. Then wait for it to boil. Then start timer. At 5 minutes out, stop timer and add more extract. Then bring back to boil. Then run down reminder of timer. I'm crunching the steep and the boil times together and avoiding the "bring back to a boil" stage.

 

[madscientist451]

How is the beer coming out using your method? Any off flavors? Anything you like about it or don't like?

 

[kiteD]

I don't have any complaints, but I'm new enough and not honed in enough to be a reliable source. Haven't tasted but one batch also. Ask me tomorrow I'm also still changing too many variables.

 

[dsaavedra]

That sounds complicated as hell. If it were me, I would steep the grains in whatever volume of water you feel is appropriate based on your research, pull the grain bag, top up with enough water for your full boil, get it to a boil, cut the heat and add some of the LME (maybe 1/3 of the total, again, do what you feel is appropriate based on your own research), resume boil and add hops at appropriate times, add the rest of your LME with a few minutes left in the boil (cutting the heat again so as not to scorch the LME).

EDIT: I should add, if you system works for you and you are happy with the beers, don't change anything

 

[joshesmusica]

honestly i think you're over-thinking it a bit.
if you want to save time, just put your steeping grains in the volume you plan on boiling. with this amount of grains, and at the temperatures you're working with, even if the pH is way out of whack, it shouldn't extract many tannins. from my own research, it seems that you need your temps to be too high and your pH to be too high combined in order to extract tannins.
once you get your grains in that volume of water and turn on the heat, simply monitor the temperature. once it reaches about 170F, then pull out the grain bag and let the wort drip dry while you wait for your water to come to a boil. at that point add 1/4 to 1/3 of your extracts. let that get to a nice boil. then start your timer for your hop additions (and any other adjuncts) and get going with that. Once you've reached the end of your timer, pull it off the heat, then add the rest of your extracts. if you're going to be adding a steeping/hopstand addition, i would wait until after you've add your extracts. These additions will help cool it to the right temps for that. if not then chill it right away.
it's really that simple. keep it simple, ____. the main reasons for doing the steeping grains is to get a little bit of complexity out of your beer that you probably can't get (or necessarily control) using extracts (aka, some flavors, colors, and a little body). you're not really looking to extract simple, fermentable sugars, so you don't really need to concentrate so much effort into this part. that's not to say you should be lazy and carefree on this part, just that it's a simple step, so you might as well do it the simplest way possible.
doing it this way will help you save time (since you have to bring the water to a boil anyways), and energy (since you have way less steps to worry about, and less pots/equipment to use, less pots to have boiling water to worry about, etc.).

 

[unionrdr]

I do biab beers with PM or steeping. Works great either way. For steeping, since the average amount of grains is rather small compared to PM, I steep in 2 gallons of spring water at 155-160F for 30 minutes. I heat 1 1/2 gallons of spring water to 170F in a second, smaller kettle for the dunk sparge. Since I use a nylon grain bag, I can stretch it over the lip of either kettle to allow the grains to be stirred. This helps get rid of dough balls in the steep/mash. And allows the drained grain bag dunked in the sparge water to be stirred & allowed to steep another 10 minutes to get more wort out of them. I feel this is better than just adding water to the main steep/mash wort. My OG's are higher & my beer is better for it.

 

[kiteD]

It's really not that complex. Maybe explaining it seems more so, but I'm not really adding much work. It's just another pan and burner. Only additional steps are separating the volume of water into two pans and pouring them together at some point. Saving time is my primary goal, and it does that.

No worries, though, I'm not trying to convert anyone. Just proof against any downfalls I hadn't thought of.

@josh - yes, steeping during the window when the water is 150-170 would save time, but not get the recommended 30min (or longer, they say) steep. Also, not boiling the late extract additions would also save time, but I worry about contamination since I like to rinse some water around in the can or bag to get all the last of the syrup.

@union - I may incorporate the nylon advice, but 120 minutes to eek out every last bit from grain is not my primary goal here.

 

[joshesmusica]

@josh - yes, steeping during the window when the water is 150-170 would save time, but not get the recommended 30min (or longer, they say) steep. Also, not boiling the late extract additions would also save time, but I worry about contamination since I like to rinse some water around in the can or bag to get all the last of the syrup.

from what i understand, people just put that bag of grains in the beginning, and take it out at 170.
as long as the temps are still above like 190, you're killing anything pretty much instantly. this is my method, and i've never had an infection.

 

[unionrdr]

It's really not that complex. Maybe explaining it seems more so, but I'm not really adding much work. It's just another pan and burner. Only additional steps are separating the volume of water into two pans and pouring them together at some point. Saving time is my primary goal, and it does that.

No worries, though, I'm not trying to convert anyone. Just proof against any downfalls I hadn't thought of.

@josh - yes, steeping during the window when the water is 150-170 would save time, but not get the recommended 30min (or longer, they say) steep. Also, not boiling the late extract additions would also save time, but I worry about contamination since I like to rinse some water around in the can or bag to get all the last of the syrup.

@union - I may incorporate the nylon advice, but 120 minutes to eek out every last bit from grain is not my primary goal here.

Made a typo, meant 10 minutes for the steep including stiring to wet the grains again & soak more goodies out. Just noticed & corrected, my mistake! And recommended steep time is 20-30 minutes. Longer really isn't necessary. No need to boil late extract additions. The thing to remember here is that pasteurization happens in seconds @ 160F, not 212F boiling temp. you don't need to boil the snot out of it to pasteurize it! That's why flame out additions work so well if done quickly. I do it all the time & no infections & my junk don't glow!

 

[mnsteveo]

The way I'm reading this it sounds like your hops are being put in plain water to boil. If I'm not misreading your method that would be my one concern. It may be just fine, but that's the only thing that stands out as a potential issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[TheMilkMan]

Technically you don't need to steep for 30 minutes at 150-170. If you are using already malted grains, like crystal or caramel malts, they are already converted from starch to sugar so you basically just need to dissolve the sugar off the grain and into your water. That can happen at any temperature, but faster at higher. A lot of people put the steeping grains in when the boil water is cold and just steep until it reaches 170, by then the sugar should be dissolved.

 

[kiteD]

Ok. I see everyone's point. Shaving the steep and extract addition corners would save about the same time. I was just trying to follow the instructions.

Thanks!

 

[nymtber]

I steep grains from the start of heating, bring to 155, and steep for 20 minutes. Then yank the grains, add the first 3lbs of DME and crank the heat to a boil, and get things going from there. The rest of extract goes in at 15 minutes, and I do stop the timer because the boil usually stops. I drop in my chiller after the extract is fully mixed in as well.

I don't taste tannins or other grain-related off flavors. Then again I'm no beer judge. I stick to what works, though!