Starter
- Thread starter dpinette2
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk:
brownni5
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2017
- Messages
- 782
- Reaction score
- 337
Lots of folks make "vitality" starters with some wort from the brew. Let it spin for a few hours (4-5) and you should be good. Others want more precision with their pitch rates and let their starters go for days with cold crashing. Really, it's up to you.
That would be to get the yeast you have up and working. If you are trying to build up the amount of yeast, a short turn around is less effective, I imagine. Another problem with quick turn arounds on starters is that you don't have time to chill and decant, so you end up pitching the starter wort, which can be a lot if you are building up the cell count.
That! ^
How many cells do you have and do you need to pitch?
If you have enough cells, or close, say at least 50-75% of needed, a vitality starter prepares them for the large batch. Not a bad a practice either for extra high gravity beers, or when a yeast slurry has been stored in the fridge for 2-3+ months.
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator
How many cells do you have and do you need to pitch?
If you have enough cells, or close, say at least 50-75% of needed, a vitality starter prepares them for the large batch. Not a bad a practice either for extra high gravity beers, or when a yeast slurry has been stored in the fridge for 2-3+ months.
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator
OP
OP
dpinette2
Well-Known Member
great question. Not sure. Here’s what i’ve been doing, use imperial yeast, so 200 billion cells to start(I realize less based on age) make starter, usually require 1.4 l stater, make 1.6, let sit 24hrs. Take 200ml and put in small mason jar. Then crash and decant starter over-night for brewday the following day. Next time need starter, use the mason jar of yeast, It’s about 25ml of actual yeast. After a few go arounds(3-5) of using same yeast, start over with new yeast. This current yeast is from the original fresh yeast i got from local hb store. It’s been in fridge for 2months.
Hope this makes sense
Hope this makes sense
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
From what I was told some imperial yeast dont require starters.
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2013
- Messages
- 9,937
- Reaction score
- 24,143
I always overbuild, start w 100b, make 1.5-1.7L, save 1/3, pitching around 200b, saving around 100b for next time. I make days in advance, I cool to let it settle, I decant. This is exactly what I've done for years, typically using 4-6 generations this way.
OP
OP
dpinette2
Well-Known Member
Yeah, usually beer smith says I do need it, make big beers, so usually calls for 300bill....but mostly i do it to cut down on yeast cost(save some to make next starter)
I guess my real question is, how many cells are there in 25ml....is there some where that describes that?
200 billion viable cells, when fresh. Viability goes down after that.
3 months after manufacturing (stored in fridge) count on 70-50% viability, 150-100 billion viable cells. That's about 2/3 to half of the 230 billion cells recommended for 5.5 gallons of 1.060-some wort.
In that light, I'd make a vitality starter.
Letting it sit is not the best way to propagate yeast... Plus it may suffer from sudden catastrophic blow off, losing half the culture to the countertop.
In lieu of a stir plate, I'd definitely do a "shaken-not-stirred" (vitality/growth) starter with it in a gallon (wine) jug with a quart of 1.040 wort. Save some out for next time, and pitch the rest.
25 ml of settled, solid slurry from a 1st generation starter? Probably around 2-3 billion cells per ml at time of harvesting.
Mr. Malty
Pitch from slurry tab.
I do starters differently than, apparently, most people.
I try to time my starters so they will have been on the stir plate for about 17 hours when time to pitch. I oxygenate the starter wort, add a pinch of yeast nutrient to the boil, and there it goes.
If I've done it right, that yeast will be at a high rate of activity when I pitch--and I pitch the whole starter right into the wort in the fermenter, which I have also oxygenated.
****
With lagers, I do the same thing, however, I will pitch that yeast into wort at about room temp (same as the starter is), and let that yeast go at that temp for 6-8 hours. At that point, I'll drop the temp down to 50 degrees. My logic, if you want to call it that, is I'm giving that starter time to begin doubling again, which as far as I can tell, seems to work just fine.
No issues that I can tell. I've done this with WLP940 and WLP800.
****
What i'm saying is I never crash and decant a starter, the whole thing just goes in. It'll drop the gravity of most beers by about a point. Some will say that there are undesirable flavors and such in that starter wort that you don't want in the beer, but I look at it differently. It's no different than using DME in the beer, and the yeast are supposed to clean up after themselves anyway.
The results say it works.
And your beer will be fine if you just pitch it.
I try to time my starters so they will have been on the stir plate for about 17 hours when time to pitch. I oxygenate the starter wort, add a pinch of yeast nutrient to the boil, and there it goes.
If I've done it right, that yeast will be at a high rate of activity when I pitch--and I pitch the whole starter right into the wort in the fermenter, which I have also oxygenated.
****
With lagers, I do the same thing, however, I will pitch that yeast into wort at about room temp (same as the starter is), and let that yeast go at that temp for 6-8 hours. At that point, I'll drop the temp down to 50 degrees. My logic, if you want to call it that, is I'm giving that starter time to begin doubling again, which as far as I can tell, seems to work just fine.
No issues that I can tell. I've done this with WLP940 and WLP800.
****
What i'm saying is I never crash and decant a starter, the whole thing just goes in. It'll drop the gravity of most beers by about a point. Some will say that there are undesirable flavors and such in that starter wort that you don't want in the beer, but I look at it differently. It's no different than using DME in the beer, and the yeast are supposed to clean up after themselves anyway.
The results say it works.
And your beer will be fine if you just pitch it.
OP
OP
dpinette2
Well-Known Member
Sorry, not sure why I said sit, I use a stir plate.
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2013
- Messages
- 9,937
- Reaction score
- 24,143
I have used up to a year just like that. The test as always is your nose. Does it smell “okay” or does it smell like the rotting anus of a roadkill yak?
smata67
Well-Known Member
A White Labs vial's total volume is 30ml. They usually come half filled with yeast, so 15ml, and are reported to have 100B cells and this is pure yeast. I assume my recycled yeast (filtered of trub and hops) is half as viable, so I assume my slurry has 100B cells in 30ml. I like to pitch 300B into 5 gallons of a 1.070 gravity beer, so I pitch about 100ml. This is about the volume of a 4oz mason jar, which is how I have been recovering and storing my yeast so as to have a single dose per jar (though seriously considering larger jars and measuring yeast from it going forward, too many jars now in the fridge). I do make a 1L starter with a jar's volume and get that going the day before I brew to ensure all systems go, which further boosts the cell count. Fact is, never had a problem using this approach, have actually had more issues with new vials of yeast, I know my yeast is good, who knows how that yeast has been treated.
What do those graduations/numbers on the mason jar mean? ml? How tall/wide is that jar?
I use squat 4 oz "jelly" mason jars (about 1.5 inches tall) or twice as tall 8 oz jelly jars to store most of my saved out starter slurries, that were crashed, decanted, resuspended with a small amount of starter beer then transferred.
The small jars are stored in 2 boxes that just fit between 2 shelves in the fridge, for easy access.
The thin layer of dark precipitate on top of the yeast is probably a byproduct from the starter process with some dead cells. I get that too sometimes. I wouldn't worry about it, maybe even provides nutrients, who knows? You could scoop/scrape it off if it bothers you.
It looks like you have between 12 and 15 ml of thick slurry. Given the looks (clean white) and origin (2nd gen) possibly 3-4 billion cells per ml originally. Now, 2 months old, around 20-30% less. Around 40-50 billion viable cells, I'd estimate.
I'd make a full 1.5-2 liter starter with that. Then you'll have something to put away again, too.
Yup! Tastes very oxidized too!
Decant, let come to room temp and make new starter. Give it 2 days on the stir plate.
Late to this and I didn't read all the replies so answers are probably already given.
Time for a starter = too many variables for a precise answer.
Age of yeast
Amount yeast you are starting with
Type of starter method
OG of the wort
Playing with esters?
Type of yeast
Style of beer
Anywhere from 30 minutes to a couple of weeks.
Time for a starter = too many variables for a precise answer.
Age of yeast
Amount yeast you are starting with
Type of starter method
OG of the wort
Playing with esters?
Type of yeast
Style of beer
Anywhere from 30 minutes to a couple of weeks.
