Starter vs. no starter

[RyanDe680]

I think it comes down to this:

If you use a starter, it will make beer.

If you don't use a starter, it will make beer.

IMO, a starter will increase the quantity and quality of the yeast you are pitching. I've tried it with and without, it does help. It's not necessary no, but does help.

I do make an attempt to make a starter for nearly every beer I create.

 

[BigRob]

Is there a huge diff between:

1. Pitching starter at high krausen
2. Cold crashing starter and pitching slurry
3. Repitching washed yeast
4. Starter made from washed yeast
5. Using 2+ Vials/Packs of Liquid/Dry yeast

If by any reasonable calculation the cell counts are all identical? I mean it seems like the important bit is the pitch rate, moreso than anything else.

 

[1Mainebrew]

Right, pitching rate is most important. There are differences when you start pitching lager starters, but other than that, go for it as long as the cell count and health are good!

 

[Piratwolf]

Is there a huge diff between:


[*]Pitching starter at high krausen
[*]Cold crashing starter and pitching slurry
[*]Repitching washed yeast
[*]Starter made from washed yeast
[*]Using 2+ Vials/Packs of Liquid/Dry yeast


If by any reasonable calculation the cell counts are all identical? I mean it seems like the important bit is the pitch rate, moreso than anything else.

Yes. For me it's $$$$. At least when I think multiple packs/vials....

 

[johnbrain]

there's more to yeast than the white labs FAQ. indeed mr white himself fully contradicts this pitching rate in his own book, entitled: YEAST.

So even if the SG if over 1.060 it might NOT be necessary to use a starter with a WL yeast? I ask because I am preparing a recipe/brew day using WL002. 1.064 SG. I live in San Diego AND my supply shop is new, so I am assuming the vial is pretty damn fresh.

Thoughts?

 

[pabloj13]

So even if the SG if over 1.060 it might NOT be necessary to use a starter with a WL yeast? I ask because I am preparing a recipe/brew day using WL002. 1.064 SG. I live in San Diego AND my supply shop is new, so I am assuming the vial is pretty damn fresh.

Thoughts?

Making a starter is super easy. DO IT.

 

[johnbrain]

Bought a flask and some DME. I'm brewing Friday afternoon/evening. Should I prepare the started tonight or tomorrow? I've read everything from pitching at high krausen to 24-48 hours to pitching, then refrigerating to let it settle and pour off the extra wort etc.

Advice?

also:

a) I am going to boil directly in the flask. Does it still require sanitizing
b) I've read preparing DME in room temp H2O prevents clumping. Can I prepare the DME before boiling or is it better to at least use hot water then bringing to a boil
c) Is it necessary to somehow sanitize the lip of the WL yeast tube? Similar to cutting open yeast packs with sanitized scissors?

THANKS! Having a blast preparing for brew day.

 

[johnnybrew]

Bought a flask and some DME. I'm brewing Friday afternoon/evening. Should I prepare the started tonight or tomorrow? I've read everything from pitching at high krausen to 24-48 hours to pitching, then refrigerating to let it settle and pour off the extra wort etc.

Advice?

also:

a) I am going to boil directly in the flask. Does it still require sanitizing
b) I've read preparing DME in room temp H2O prevents clumping. Can I prepare the DME before boiling or is it better to at least use hot water then bringing to a boil
c) Is it necessary to somehow sanitize the lip of the WL yeast tube? Similar to cutting open yeast packs with sanitized scissors?

THANKS! Having a blast preparing for brew day.

I tend to prepare all of my starters with enough time to grow, chill, flocculate, decant and then pitch a slurry. I just do it out of habit, but you really don't need to do this for all beers, only lagers or other beers that have a delicate profile. Why? Because if you pitch the entire starter you toss in all of the lovely yeast, but also the fermented wort from the starter. This stuff could add an off-flavor.

I have pitched starters at high kraeusen and have had great results as well (smaller starters with darker beer). But, you really don't want to pitch the entire starter when you have a large starter.

To your other Qs:

a) I am going to boil directly in the flask. Does it still require sanitizing.
Nope, the heat will do the sanitizing. Just make sure your flask is properly cleaned.

b) I've read preparing DME in room temp H2O prevents clumping. Can I prepare the DME before boiling or is it better to at least use hot water then bringing to a boil
The DME will dissolve regardless, don't sweat it. Add it to warm water and swirl the flask. After a 15 min boil it will a-ok.

c) Is it necessary to somehow sanitize the lip of the WL yeast tube? Similar to cutting open yeast packs with sanitized scissors?
I do. I dip the yeast package (tube or smack pack) in Star San and make sure that anything that touches the packet or the flask AFTER the boil has been sanitized.

A few more thoughts:

Remember, the intention of a starter is to create yeast, not make beer. So don't worry about adding hops - it's not necessary. In fact, hop oils will end up inhibiting yeast growth.

Make a starter that has an SG of about 1.040.

Read this: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

Hope this helped. Happy brewing.

 

[johnbrain]

Thanks. Went ahead and sanitized flask then or the foil piece in the sanitizer. Sounds like overkill. Watched the boil for no boil over. It cooled fast so I didn't want to over cool it.

Quite relaxing. Btw White Labs English Ale flocculates so quickly in a flask you can watch it happen. Quite mesmerizing

 

[petey_c]

I've had the starter vs. no starter bottles in the kitchen fridge for about a week now. The reason I haven't tried them is because they're 750 ml. bottles. I usually anticipate having them after I'm done cooking and eating dinner. But by then, four beers would be too much. That and my taste buds' abilities would be compromised.

 

[tasteslikechicken]

Like most things in homebrewing I expect far too much energy is spent imitating those who brew a million barrels a year (give or take an order of magnitude).

The reasons why commercial brewers pitch at the rate they do is probably more dependent on making beer at a certain rate given the capital invested in the brewery than on truly optimizing the enjoyment of the finished product.

But I'd love to hear the results of numerous double blind tested split batches where the wort was pitched too low, too high, or just right. Whatever that may be.

 

[studmonk3y]

Well, after some trial and error (mostly error) I've come to a moderate success with the stir plate. Started the starter last eve and the pitcher I used had a slightly rounded bottom. The combination of that and a regular light dimmer to control a small 120 VAC muffin fan didn't fare well. The fan stopped sometime during the night. Changed the pitcher to one with a flatter bottom and found a "sweet spot" on the dimmer. It's been going good for about 2 hours now. 12 grams of Munton's "Gold" yeast in 1 quart of water with 1 cup of amber DME and a pinch of yeast nutrient. My kits arrived a little earlier today and I'll start tomorrow morning after my daughter leaves for school. That'll give me about 36 hours of starter. Cleaned out my 10 gallon pot and boiled some water in it. Cut a spigot into a 7.5 gallon (?) bucket I had and am leak testing it as I type. We'll see how this turns out in about 6 weeks....

I find it funny that after all this debate, petey_c is making a starter on his new stir plate...with dry yeast.

Pete, I'm glad you're making starters (I'm in that camp), but they're unnecessary for dry yeast. You want to proof dry yeast in water. You only make starters for liquid yeast.

 

[Darwin18]

I've had the starter vs. no starter bottles in the kitchen fridge for about a week now. The reason I haven't tried them is because they're 750 ml. bottles. I usually anticipate having them after I'm done cooking and eating dinner. But by then, four beers would be too much. That and my taste buds' abilities would be compromised.

Petey if you made your starter with dry yeast, you've missed the point and wasted your time. Liquid yeasts benefit from starters. Dry yeasts already have the cell count most 5G batches require...

 

[petey_c]

studmonk3y/darwin18, yep, I found that after I made my first Notty starter. One of those classic Homer Simpson moments. On the second one I think I was on autopilot, "Oh schist, I'm gonna brew tomorrow. I'd better get that starter started." I did however, notice a big difference when using the Munton's dry yeast starter. (My actual experiment.) The Notty's are 11g. I'll drink this experiment and duplicate it with LIQUID yeast (emphasis added for my benefit) next time. Thanks, Pete

 

[Hauntedyards]

So the smack packs aren't liquid yeast... but dry yeast with the water equivalent of nutrient in the bag with it. That's why the cell count is so high after swelling? and you can get away without a starter on these with an OG below 1.060 I assume...

I think this thread just saved me time I would have wasted on a starter... lol

 

[janivar123]

Huh no smack pack is liquid yeast
Check the age and decide if a starter is needed(it probably is)

BTW danstar(notty)recomend 1gram per litre now for average gravety beer

 

[homebrewdad]

Like most things in homebrewing I expect far too much energy is spent imitating those who brew a million barrels a year (give or take an order of magnitude).

The reasons why commercial brewers pitch at the rate they do is probably more dependent on making beer at a certain rate given the capital invested in the brewery than on truly optimizing the enjoyment of the finished product.

But I'd love to hear the results of numerous double blind tested split batches where the wort was pitched too low, too high, or just right. Whatever that may be.

Do a forum search. Do a Google search. There are tons of these reports - both from homebrewers and from beer pros.

Lower pitching rates typically result in weaker fermentations and more off flavors.

Note that some styles may actually benefit from underpitching - certain Belgian beers can be intentionally done this way to pick up some of the varian flavors that would be considered flaws in other beers.

 

[periwinkle1239]

So the smack packs aren't liquid yeast... but dry yeast with the water equivalent of nutrient in the bag with it. That's why the cell count is so high after swelling? and you can get away without a starter on these with an OG below 1.060 I assume...

I think this thread just saved me time I would have wasted on a starter... lol

I don't know that any of this is accurate. Smack packs are liquid yeast as far as I know. And I would make a starter regardless of the gravity, even if it is a low gravity brew. I used to not make starters with low gravity beers and now I do and I have noticed a difference in the quality of flavor. In short the beers turn out better with starters.

And last, in my opinion there is very little time associated with making a starter.

Just chiming in...

 

[BigRob]

Smack packs are liquid yeast, the little packet inside just gets them going a little, the swelling of the package is merely an indicator that the yeast are not DOA

 

[Hauntedyards]

Smack packs are liquid yeast, the little packet inside just gets them going a little, the swelling of the package is merely an indicator that the yeast are not DOA

Weird. I'd swear it rattled when I shook it. I would think though that a neglected starter may do more harm to the concentration of yeast in a smack pack than good? It would be better to make a starter go dormant at the peak of fermentation than to let it die off no? That slurry must be better than a burned out one?

I'm just learning about this myself.

 

[petey_c]

Well this weekend will be my beechwood/starter experiment (with LIQUID yeast ). Since I'm only making one four gallon batch, split between two Mr. Beer kegs, the starter is just to say I actually made one the right way. The real purpose of this batch is to see what impact beechwood might have on a beer. As I posted in another thread, I had to cut a beech tree down recently. As I was cutting the trunk width logs (30"+) into fireplace size, I began to think of Bud's old advertising "Beechwood aged." Turns out, Bud bascially removed all the beechwood taste prior to adding it to the beer. (Did we forget to mention that?) I guess my starter experiment will have to wait until the summer.