Starter vs. no starter

[Grinnan5150]

I have read several threads about having to make a starter with White Labs liquid yeast. I don't recall seeing on the instructions where it is needed. I have never used a starter with White Labs and my beer has always fermented with no issues. Am I doing myself a disservice by not making a starter? What are the benefits? Does it increase fermentation, flavor or both?

 

[KilhavenBrew]

I dont understand the answer either. This is what I read: A starter provides a higher yeast cell count which means fewer byproducts or off flavors from the reproduction stage, and you pitch while the yeast are at their most active so the fermentation begins more quickly.

This answer does not make any sense. Fermentaion begins more quickly yes. However, less off flavors does not make sense. Wouldn't the yeast create those off flavors in the vessel that you are making the starter in? After all, you are using yeast, water and malt extract, just like the beer.

Also, I read that you get better attenuation. But every beer I make with Wyeast without a starter seems to attenuate the same as with the starter. About mid road for the yeast specs. Anyone have an idea about the off flavor? Please tell me how the flavor gets effected if you are using the same method to create a starter as you are to start the beer directly in the wort you are fermenting.

 

[AmandaK]

Both of you, please read this:
http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

 

[Grinnan5150]

Thank you for the info. That prompts a second question. Can I just use an additional vial of yeast instead of making a starter. I just got the Brew Pal app that recommends doing that. Thoughts?

 

[lowtones84]

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I have done batches with starters and without and all have been good. Granted, none of these were particularly big beers, but I really can't tell the difference though they were different styles.

My saison without a starter is one of the best beers I've ever made. That said, if you take the time to do it and you do it right, fermentation has always started quicker and "healthier" for me.

 

[Skagdog]

Does the starter not affect the finished product? Aren't you adding water and DME to your brew? Is the taste gonna be the same?

 

[johnnybrew]

Thank you for the info. That prompts a second question. Can I just use an additional vial of yeast instead of making a starter. I just got the Brew Pal app that recommends doing that. Thoughts?

Yep, you can just increase the number of vials or smack packs.

Making a starter will give you more healthy viable yeast, which will translate to a beer that is cleaner and closer to the style profile you are aiming for.

 

[weirdboy]

Does the starter not affect the finished product? Aren't you adding water and DME to your brew? Is the taste gonna be the same?

Especially for large ones, I cold crash and then decant the starter before I pitch it so as to remove most of the spent wort.

 

[Cellarbrau]

Making a starter is a really good idea.

 

[johnnybrew]

Especially for large ones, I cold crash and then decant the starter before I pitch it so as to remove most of the spent wort.

Same here.

Most of my starters are .5 to 1L and are pitched at high krauesen. But, 1L or more and I will try and cold crash, decant and pitch only the yeast slurry.

 

[ChadChaney]

By making a starter you are essentially letting the yeast reproduce before you introduce it to you wort, allowing it to skip that stage in the wort and start eating the sugars. That is a simplified answer, but kind of the basics. by doing this, the yeast has less work to do, hence less stress, and less off flavors. I have personally noticed a big difference since I started using starters; faster and more aggressive fermentation, clearer beer, better attenuation and less weird odors and flavors. I have yet to make a really big starter and try to pitch the starter at full krasuen, so I do not decant. I am a fan of Mr. Malty for the most part, but sometimes I think it is a little overboard, but he is the expert, not me. I will sat my beer has been significantly better with starters, so much so, that I bought a stir plate. Just my opinion, hope it helps.

Last thing, another key component is fermentation temps, even with the right amount of yeast, if the temp is wrong, you can still stress the yeast and get undesired effects. Swamp cooler for me works well.

 

[beerman0001]

From the whitelabs FAQ "While a starter is not always necessary, White Labs recommends making a starter if the Original Gravity is over 1.060, if the yeast is past its "Best Before" date, if you are pitching lager yeast at temperatures below 65F, or if a faster start is desired." This is what I go by.

 

[beerman0001]

Also
How can I pitch 1 million cells per ml per degree Plato?

Some homebrewers now want to pitch more yeast in 5 gallons then a pint starter. An often quoted number is to pitch 1 million cells/ml/degree Plato of beer, which equals about 250 billion cells for 5 gallons. That is okay, more cells are not detrimental until about 400 billion cells. For those that enjoy yeast culturing and want 250 billion cells, one vial can be added directly to 2 liters of wort starter, and after two days of incubation, will be equal to roughly 250 billion cells. Is this necessary? Every brewer will have a different opinion, but here is some information:

a. The source of the 1 million cells/ml/degree Plato figure: Professional brewery literature.
Most professional breweries re-pitch their yeast because they have the fermentor design and facilities to reuse yeast. So most brewery pitches are actually re-pitches, and only 2-10% of brewery pitchings are using freshly propagated yeast. One of the main sources of contamination in a brewery is the pitching yeast. So in order to out-compete other organisms, large quantities of yeast must be pitched. When propagated by a professional yeast laboratory, the yeast is grown under sterile conditions, sterileoxygen and special nutrients are used to improve cell construction and performance. This does not occur in a brewery, so numbers they use to "pitch" take into account the inadequacy of their brewers yeast. The yeast is also unhealthy due to prolonged growth without oxygen and nutrients. In addition, brewers yeast will always contain some contaminants that need to be out-grown, and 1 million cells per ml per degree Plato has been found to be the best marriage of high pitching rates and no negative flavor effects (Higher pitching rates can lead to unhealthy yeast and a "yeasty" off bite). Liquid yeast grown by a professional laboratory should have no contaminants, so out competing contaminants found in the pitching yeast is not a concern.

One thing that contributes to flavor contribution in beer is yeast growth. If less yeast is pitched into beer, more yeast growth takes place, so more flavor compounds such as esters are produced. Depending on the amount produced, this is how pitching rates can have a direct effect on flavor profile. If 5 to 10 billion cells are pitched into wort, this definitely has a negative flavor impact in terms of higher ester levels and potential for bacterial contamination. But does a pint starter worth of yeast (30-50 billion cells) pitched into beer tasted different then 2 liters worth of yeast (250 billion cells)? Sounds like more homebrew has to be made to get to the bottom of this! Your feedback is appreciated.

 

[thegerm]

From the whitelabs FAQ "While a starter is not always necessary, White Labs recommends making a starter if the Original Gravity is over 1.060, if the yeast is past its "Best Before" date, if you are pitching lager yeast at temperatures below 65F, or if a faster start is desired." This is what I go by.

there's more to yeast than the white labs FAQ. indeed mr white himself fully contradicts this pitching rate in his own book, entitled: YEAST.

 

[thegerm]

Sounds like more homebrew has to be made to get to the bottom of this! Your feedback is appreciated.

jamil zainasheff, the dude with the calculator. he did this work already, quite a long time ago. results have been replicated and confirmed multiple times. seek out his website, books, numerous podcasts on the subject of yeast, etc etc. this subject is settled science, we just have some flat-earth people who won't believe it no matter what.

 

[beerman0001]

Sounds like they need to update their site then.

 

[1Mainebrew]

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I have done batches with starters and without and all have been good. Granted, none of these were particularly big beers, but I really can't tell the difference though they were different styles.

My saison without a starter is one of the best beers I've ever made. That said, if you take the time to do it and you do it right, fermentation has always started quicker and "healthier" for me.

The reason your saison was so good was 1) Belgian yeasts are very estery and flavorful, and 2) many Belgian brewery intentionally underpitch to stress the yeast and derive even more of those characteristics and 3) it was probably a small gravity beer.

If you are at all interested in saving yourself some money by washing and reusing yeast, you will not want to stress them out because they will mutate and change your beers a lot. Therefore you will want to pitch the right amount of yeast at the right temperature and aerate/oxygenate like crazy.

 

[JustLooking]

there's more to yeast than the white labs FAQ. indeed mr white himself fully contradicts this pitching rate in his own book, entitled: YEAST.

Here's a quote from the book YEAST. I don't see the contridiction you speak of.

While many brewers stick with this formula, it is more of a guideline than a hard fast rule . . . Many ales will be ideal at 0.75 million and many lagers at 1.5 million. Some beers might require more or less . . . Keep in mind these suggested rates are for repitching harvested yeast . . . When pitching a fresh, laboratory culture grown with aeration and good nutrition, a brewer can use up to 50 percent lower pitch rate.

It goes on to say that for a 0.75 million pitch rate in a 1.048 gravity wort, a 5.3 gallon batch would need 180 billion cells. Putting these two together tells us that with a fresh pack of yeast you’d need half of that, or 90 billion cells. Since a fresh, well treated pack should have at least 100 billion cells, it looks to me like he's saying that you’re good to go with one pack if it's been handled properly.

 

[thegerm]

What do you think fresh means? 1 month old? Or high kreusen? 4 months is when the vial expires. Pitch a 3 month 29 day old vial in a 1.060 wort and enter that beer in 10 comps and tell me how it goes.

 

[JustLooking]

What do you think fresh means? ... Pitch a 3 month 29 day old vial in a 1.060 wort and enter that beer in 10 comps and tell me how it goes.

Ask Mr Malty:

Q: Do I always need to make a starter?

No. However, in many cases, making a starter will provide better fermentation. You should always make a starter if you suspect the viability (overall health) of your yeast might be low. If you have an old vial or pack of yeast or the yeast has been left out warm for an extended period of time (for example yeast in shipping for several days), you should make a starter.



Also, for some small batches or low gravity beers such as an ordinary bitter, there is a very slight chance you might end up over pitching if you get carried away. High pitching rates can result in a less than ideal fermentation profile (i.e., low or unexpected esters, yeast autolysis flavors, poor head retention) as compared to a properly pitched batch.

Viability progressivly declines. It’s not like one day it’s fresh and the next it’s not. Making a starter is a judgement call that depends on the situation.

 

[JustLooking]

Most of my starters are .5 to 1L and are pitched at high krauesen.

And just to be clear, a half liter starter for a vial or smack pack is not much better than observing the swelling of the smack pack. Growth is minimal. All you're doing is proofing your yeast. You really have to get into the 1.5 to 2 liter range for good growth.

 

[johnnybrew]

And just to be clear, a half liter starter for a vial or smack pack is not much better than observing the swelling of the smack pack. Growth is minimal. All you're doing is proofing your yeast. You really have to get into the 1.5 to 2 liter range for good growth.

I will agree that a 500 ml starter is small and typically not enough for the majority of beers. But, I respectfully disagree that 1.5 L is the lower limit. 90% of my starters are 1L and 90% of the time that is all I need for an average gravity beer (1.050). This starter size is calculated and confirmed via both BrewSmith and Jamil's yeast calculator. I use a stir plate and get great growth. Even at the smaller size (500ml), pitching the yeast into aerated 1.040 wort and letting it stir for 24 hour will still produce some growth and more importantly tee up the yeast for a good healthy fermentation (more so than just proofing the yeast for 1 hour).

The key is to figure out what you have to start with (e.g., a WL vial dated on x date) and where you need to be (e.g., # of cells for the volume and gravity of wort). Once you know those data points you can figure out how large of a starter you need. Under pitching is something you're trying to avoid. Grossly over pitching is also something you should stay away from.

If you haven't looked at Jamil's calculator, take a look:Mrmalty.com

Yeast health, pitching rate and fermentation temperature control are paramount to good beer. IMHO yeast control/science is the 2nd most important technique when it comes to brewing (1st is sanitation).

But, if you don't make a starter or a big enough one... RDWHAHB. It's not the end of the world and good beer can still be made. Most of us here are all about fine tuning and getting the very best out of our effort. So, that's where all of the pitching rates, starters, using O2 for aeration, water chemistry and pH, temperature control, recirculating systems (RIMS/HERMS), etc. all come into play.

Have fun and brew on.

 

[JustLooking]

But, I respectfully disagree that 1.5 L is the lower limit.

According to YEAST here are the new cells created for different size starters beginning with a 100 billion cells pitched from a fresh vial into the starter.

.5L = 12 billion cells
1L = 38 billion cells
1.5L = 52 billion cells
2L = 81 billion cells

Earlier I mentioned that the book claims that by pitching fresh yeast direct from a vial or smack pack, the amount needed can be up to half of what’s needed when repitching. And that the rates cited for ales (.75 million cells per milliliter of wort per degree Plato) are for repitching.

My thinking is that making a starter creates some of the same pitfalls that repitching has. Homebrewers are not working in a sterile lab. There’s a good chance that a bug could join the party in the starter. Given this and the fact that you’re growing new cells means that mutation or an impure culture is a real possibility. So at this point you have to pitch the original larger amount of cells into your wort to meet the same needs. For this reason I think that making a starter much less than two liters is a waste of time for anything other than proofing the yeast. The same thing that a swollen smack pack does.

And that direct pitching a fresh smack pack is an equal or better option than making a small starter.





edit:
Sulli is right in his post below. I skipped over a line when copying the text.
The book also had a .8 size starter on the chart that was at the 38 billion cells, so everything gets shifted down from there to what Sulli posted.

 

[johnnybrew]

Let's agree to disagree. Do what works for you.

 

[thegerm]

those numbers aren't for stir plate starters.

And that direct pitching a fresh smack pack is an equal or better option than making a small starter.

that's just incorrect. plain and simple.

i think all these "are starters worth it or not" people really need to read and do more than single source research before they come on this forum advocating bad ideas.

 

[JustLooking]

that's just incorrect. plain and simple.

I take issue with people like you who speak in absolutes on topics like this. Direct pitching four month old yeast into an IPA is something that no one should do. Direct pitching a two week old smack pack that swelled up in a couple of hours into a Ordinary Bitter can make beer of equal quality to one made with an appropriately sized starter. In-between these two extremes is a gray area where the homebrewer has to make a decision weighing out the effects of under pitching against any time and equipment restrains he may face.

Neither of us have number to back it up, but I think it’s safe to say that of the homebrewers making starters the majority of them don’t use stir plates and that the numbers cited in my previous post are close to what can be expected for them. Sure would be nice if we all had sterile labs with stir plates, microscopes for counting cells and super precise scales for measuring out exact amounts of the starter slurry. The reality is a compromise to making the best beer possible with the resources available. I stand by my opinion that a half liter starter made in the average kitchen that sits on the counter all day while your at work is no guarantee of a better beer than you’ll get direct pitching fresh yeast in a beer less than 1.050.

But there are no absolutes on this topic. Like Jonnybrew says, I agree to disagree.

 

[Sulli]

According to YEAST here are the new cells created for different size starters beginning with a 100 billion cells pitched from a fresh vial into the starter.

.5L = 12 billion cells
1L = 38 billion cells
1.5L = 52 billion cells
2L = 81 billion cells

Earlier I mentioned that the book claims that by pitching fresh yeast direct from a vial or smack pack, the amount needed can be up to half of what’s needed when repitching. And that the rates cited for ales (.75 million cells per milliliter of wort per degree Plato) are for repitching.

My thinking is that making a starter creates some of the same pitfalls that repitching has. Homebrewers are not working in a sterile lab. There’s a good chance that a bug could join the party in the starter. Given this and the fact that you’re growing new cells means that mutation or an impure culture is a real possibility. So at this point you have to pitch the original larger amount of cells into your wort to meet the same needs. For this reason I think that making a starter much less than two liters is a waste of time for anything other than proofing the yeast. The same thing that a swollen smack pack does.

And that direct pitching a fresh smack pack is an equal or better option than making a small starter.

You quoted these number from Yeast wrong.
Correction:
.5 L = 12 billion cells
1 L = 52 billion cells
1.5 L = 81 billion cells
2 L = 105 billion cells

If your dealing with White Labs vials, since there is no nutrient pack, it's probably not a bad idea to re-vitalize the yeast with a starter of some kind.
I agree 500 ml is a waste of time. If you are going to take the time to make a starter you might as well make it worth your while.

 

[Grinnan5150]

Thank you everyone for your input. I am going to try making a starter for the first time on a brewery's best red ale kit before I try it in one of my all grain recipes. I am sure it will be just fine. If not, I brew for fun and try not to get too wrapped up in it.

 

[Grinnan5150]

Thank you everyone for your input. I am going to try making a starter for the first time on a brewery's best red ale kit before I try it in one of my all grain recipes. I am sure it will be just fine. If not, I brew for fun and try not to get too wrapped up in it.

Edit: I meant Brewer's Best kit.

 

[baldben]

I made a starter for the first time on my last batch of beer. I was shooting for 1l but somehow ended up at 750ml. As for increase in yeast population, I obviously can't say what took place. However, the reduction in lag time was pretty incredible. I pitched at around 3pm yesterday and saw a good bubbling from the blow off tube about 3 hours later. After 9 hours I had a good inch of krausen and now, after about 21 hours, have about 6 inches of krausen in the carboy.

 

[petey_c]

Well, I'd like to thank everyone in this thread, sort of. Until now, I'd been happy in my ignorance. No starter needed, pitched dry yeast, smack packs, vials of liquid yeast, sometimes re-hydrated, others not. Beer was good. But, nothing to compare it to. Now, thanks to this thread and all of the banter, I have to prove these findings for myself. I'll have to brew 10 gals. at once, split 'em and pitch "starter'd" yeast and a pack of dry yeast. Great, now I'll have to drink more beer (in the name of science, of course!) to validate this...

 

[deezy]

Godspeed!

 

[lowtones84]

I'll have to brew 10 gals. at once, split 'em and pitch "starter'd" yeast and a pack of dry yeast. Great, now I'll have to drink more beer (in the name of science, of course!) to validate this...

You'll just be tasting the beers and then spitting the contents out into a bucket, right?

 

[johnnybrew]

Enjoy the pursuit. Just remember that you need to use the same sanitation approach that you use post boil when brewing. Anything that is going to touch the starter should be sanitized. The following link may help. It's out of date (his latest hard-copy edition is different) - I don't think JP updates his site regularly.

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Preparing Yeast and Yeast Starters

 

[thegerm]

I take issue with people like you who speak in absolutes on topics like this. Direct pitching four month old yeast into an IPA is something that no one should do. Direct pitching a two week old smack pack that swelled up in a couple of hours into a Ordinary Bitter can make beer of equal quality to one made with an appropriately sized starter. In-between these two extremes is a gray area where the homebrewer has to make a decision weighing out the effects of under pitching against any time and equipment restrains he may face.

Neither of us have number to back it up, but I think it’s safe to say that of the homebrewers making starters the majority of them don’t use stir plates and that the numbers cited in my previous post are close to what can be expected for them. Sure would be nice if we all had sterile labs with stir plates, microscopes for counting cells and super precise scales for measuring out exact amounts of the starter slurry. The reality is a compromise to making the best beer possible with the resources available. I stand by my opinion that a half liter starter made in the average kitchen that sits on the counter all day while your at work is no guarantee of a better beer than you’ll get direct pitching fresh yeast in a beer less than 1.050.

But there are no absolutes on this topic. Like Jonnybrew says, I agree to disagree.

I'm not really a party to your straw man arguments about fresh pack vs unfresh+500ml starter. so you can let go of that.

it's your prerogative to have faith in whatever you like. I'll go with the people who have performed rigorous controlled experimentation over your feelings. If that's what we're agreeing to, I just think the newbies who aren't sure who to believe know that part.

 

[ACESFULL]

I made a starter for the first time on my last batch of beer. I was shooting for 1l but somehow ended up at 750ml. As for increase in yeast population, I obviously can't say what took place. However, the reduction in lag time was pretty incredible. I pitched at around 3pm yesterday and saw a good bubbling from the blow off tube about 3 hours later. After 9 hours I had a good inch of krausen and now, after about 21 hours, have about 6 inches of krausen in the carboy.

To argue weather you make a starter or not - the above description is why I make starters. Shorter lag time - quicker and often times cleaner ferments. Now you can/will argue this isn't necessary but it works for me. Also with all the advise that JZ has provided the homebrew community and the mass amounts of awards his beers have won I will listen to what he has to say.

 

[johnnybrew]

JustLooking - I respect that you have your opinion, but feel you should dig in a little deeper into the brewing microbiology of yeast. Pitching the correct amount of yeast is going to improve your beer. Stick by your guns if you like, but I encourage you to do a little more reading and decide for yourself. If you have already done so, then so be it. Brewing beer is about crafting your own beverage in the way you like. So do what you want to do and be proud of your product. My unsolicited suggestion is to stay open-minded, strive to always learn more and work towards improving your technique.

Making a Yeast Starter for your Home Brew Beer | Home Brewing Beer Blog by BeerSmith

Brew Your Own: The How-To Homebrew Beer Magazine - Story Index - Yeast - Make a Yeast Starter: Techniques

Mrmalty.com

http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

Respectfully, JB

 

[Darwin18]

The real question is why WOULDN'T you make a starter with liquid yeast? Do you know how the yeast was handled for the laboratory to your hands? Making a starter is an easy way to guarantee that your pitching health yeast and will make a huge impact on the quality AND consistency of your beer.

Making yeast starters and controlling your fermentation temperatures will take make your homebrew go from "alright" to "I can't keep this in stock because everyone keeps drinking it".

I mean what does Jamil know? He's only won a ton of awards and has influenced thousands of brewers. All I know is that the beer took a giant leap forward in terms of quality and consistency once I started making yeast starters and fermentation control central to my brewing. The judges in the competitions I've entered since have agreed as well .

 

[petey_c]

Thanks for all the support, deezy, lowtones84, johnnybrew, et al. Yeah, just like wine tasting. I won't really drink any of the beer. (Yeah, right!) The sacrifices I make for our "craft". I just ordered two London Pub ale kits from AHS Austin Homebrew Supply . Hopefully, I should be doing this around the 25th, delivery, work and home schedule permitting. Three week primary, three week bottle time. I should have the results by the first or second week in March.

 

[petey_c]

These kits come with a 6g pkg of yeast. So, I'll be looking to make a 1.5 ltr. starter. Should I decant or just pitch everything?