Starter vs. no starter

[petey_c]

Well, I'd like to thank everyone in this thread, sort of. Until now, I'd been happy in my ignorance. No starter needed, pitched dry yeast, smack packs, vials of liquid yeast, sometimes re-hydrated, others not. Beer was good. But, nothing to compare it to. Now, thanks to this thread and all of the banter, I have to prove these findings for myself. I'll have to brew 10 gals. at once, split 'em and pitch "starter'd" yeast and a pack of dry yeast. Great, now I'll have to drink more beer (in the name of science, of course!) to validate this...

 

[deezy]

Godspeed!

 

[lowtones84]

I'll have to brew 10 gals. at once, split 'em and pitch "starter'd" yeast and a pack of dry yeast. Great, now I'll have to drink more beer (in the name of science, of course!) to validate this...

You'll just be tasting the beers and then spitting the contents out into a bucket, right?

 

[johnnybrew]

Enjoy the pursuit. Just remember that you need to use the same sanitation approach that you use post boil when brewing. Anything that is going to touch the starter should be sanitized. The following link may help. It's out of date (his latest hard-copy edition is different) - I don't think JP updates his site regularly.

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Preparing Yeast and Yeast Starters

 

[thegerm]

I take issue with people like you who speak in absolutes on topics like this. Direct pitching four month old yeast into an IPA is something that no one should do. Direct pitching a two week old smack pack that swelled up in a couple of hours into a Ordinary Bitter can make beer of equal quality to one made with an appropriately sized starter. In-between these two extremes is a gray area where the homebrewer has to make a decision weighing out the effects of under pitching against any time and equipment restrains he may face.

Neither of us have number to back it up, but I think it’s safe to say that of the homebrewers making starters the majority of them don’t use stir plates and that the numbers cited in my previous post are close to what can be expected for them. Sure would be nice if we all had sterile labs with stir plates, microscopes for counting cells and super precise scales for measuring out exact amounts of the starter slurry. The reality is a compromise to making the best beer possible with the resources available. I stand by my opinion that a half liter starter made in the average kitchen that sits on the counter all day while your at work is no guarantee of a better beer than you’ll get direct pitching fresh yeast in a beer less than 1.050.

But there are no absolutes on this topic. Like Jonnybrew says, I agree to disagree.

I'm not really a party to your straw man arguments about fresh pack vs unfresh+500ml starter. so you can let go of that.

it's your prerogative to have faith in whatever you like. I'll go with the people who have performed rigorous controlled experimentation over your feelings. If that's what we're agreeing to, I just think the newbies who aren't sure who to believe know that part.

 

[ACESFULL]

I made a starter for the first time on my last batch of beer. I was shooting for 1l but somehow ended up at 750ml. As for increase in yeast population, I obviously can't say what took place. However, the reduction in lag time was pretty incredible. I pitched at around 3pm yesterday and saw a good bubbling from the blow off tube about 3 hours later. After 9 hours I had a good inch of krausen and now, after about 21 hours, have about 6 inches of krausen in the carboy.

To argue weather you make a starter or not - the above description is why I make starters. Shorter lag time - quicker and often times cleaner ferments. Now you can/will argue this isn't necessary but it works for me. Also with all the advise that JZ has provided the homebrew community and the mass amounts of awards his beers have won I will listen to what he has to say.

 

[johnnybrew]

JustLooking - I respect that you have your opinion, but feel you should dig in a little deeper into the brewing microbiology of yeast. Pitching the correct amount of yeast is going to improve your beer. Stick by your guns if you like, but I encourage you to do a little more reading and decide for yourself. If you have already done so, then so be it. Brewing beer is about crafting your own beverage in the way you like. So do what you want to do and be proud of your product. My unsolicited suggestion is to stay open-minded, strive to always learn more and work towards improving your technique.

Making a Yeast Starter for your Home Brew Beer | Home Brewing Beer Blog by BeerSmith

Brew Your Own: The How-To Homebrew Beer Magazine - Story Index - Yeast - Make a Yeast Starter: Techniques

Mrmalty.com

http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

Respectfully, JB

 

[Darwin18]

The real question is why WOULDN'T you make a starter with liquid yeast? Do you know how the yeast was handled for the laboratory to your hands? Making a starter is an easy way to guarantee that your pitching health yeast and will make a huge impact on the quality AND consistency of your beer.

Making yeast starters and controlling your fermentation temperatures will take make your homebrew go from "alright" to "I can't keep this in stock because everyone keeps drinking it".

I mean what does Jamil know? He's only won a ton of awards and has influenced thousands of brewers. All I know is that the beer took a giant leap forward in terms of quality and consistency once I started making yeast starters and fermentation control central to my brewing. The judges in the competitions I've entered since have agreed as well .

 

[petey_c]

Thanks for all the support, deezy, lowtones84, johnnybrew, et al. Yeah, just like wine tasting. I won't really drink any of the beer. (Yeah, right!) The sacrifices I make for our "craft". I just ordered two London Pub ale kits from AHS Austin Homebrew Supply . Hopefully, I should be doing this around the 25th, delivery, work and home schedule permitting. Three week primary, three week bottle time. I should have the results by the first or second week in March.

 

[petey_c]

These kits come with a 6g pkg of yeast. So, I'll be looking to make a 1.5 ltr. starter. Should I decant or just pitch everything?

 

[JustLooking]

I mean what does Jamil know?

Funny stuff since most of the quotes I use to back up by opinion come from a book co-authored by Jamil. :cross:



And I think they pretty well cover "why WOULDN'T you make a starter with liquid yeast?"

 

[JustLooking]

JustLooking - I respect that you have your opinion, but feel you should dig in a little deeper into the brewing microbiology of yeast.

Hey Johnny. The truth is that I don’t think that you and I are that far apart in our opinions on this subject. I’ve read most of what you’ve linked to and try to follow the pitch rates they suggest. One place we may differ is my belief in the book YEAST (along with other sources) claim that with a fresh, laboratory culture you don’t need the same rate. And it’s not just taking their word for it. I came to a very similar conclusion a long time ago. My rule of thumb has been a pitch rate of .5 million when direct pitching will make excellent (award winning) beer. I pitch a fresh pack into four gallons of wort at less than 1.050, harvest and move on to a bigger beer.

The only other place we may disagree is that I don’t think that telling new brewers to make starters is a good idea. It’s like telling someone learning to drive to hit the tangents and accelerate out of the turns. How about, drive 5 mph under the limit, stay in the center of the road and don’t hit anything. I’d rather suggest that new homebrewers make smaller (again, either volume or gravity) beers and direct pitch. Once they have a good grasp of the basics (sanitation and technique) and when they understand why they’re doing what they’re doing. When they have the equipment and resources to make a proper size starter. Only when these things are understood should the option of a starter be made.

Sanitation, aeration, temperature control and racking are mandatory skills needed to make quality beer. They are the things you have to master to make the best beer possible. Pitch rate is just as important, but can be achieved without making a starter. Learn these other things, enter a competition to confirm that you've got a good grasp of them. Then move on to more advanced practices.

A lot of what I read in these threads would have people believe that making a starter is the holy grail of homebrewing. It’s not!

 

[KilhavenBrew]

You quoted these number from Yeast wrong.
Correction:
.5 L = 12 billion cells
1 L = 52 billion cells
1.5 L = 81 billion cells
2 L = 105 billion cells


Here is says a 2L starter has 105 Billion cells. That is about what a Wyeast pack already has. So making a starter of 1.5 L comes out as 81 Billion. Decreaseing your cell count.

I dont get how these numbers work. Are you saying ADDITIONAL cells? Beyond what you pitched in the starter?

 

[Sulli]

You quoted these number from Yeast wrong.
Correction:
.5 L = 12 billion cells
1 L = 52 billion cells
1.5 L = 81 billion cells
2 L = 105 billion cells

Here is says a 2L starter has 105 Billion cells. That is about what a Wyeast pack already has. So making a starter of 1.5 L comes out as 81 Billion. Decreaseing your cell count.

I dont get how these numbers work. Are you saying ADDITIONAL cells? Beyond what you pitched in the starter?

Yes, these numbers are the amount of additional cells produced.

 

[petey_c]

Well, I watched a couple of you tube videos on making starters. Now I want to make a stir plate. I got a 120 VAC muffin fan from work and an old HDD magnet. Now I just need to assemble the rest of the parts... A rotary fan dimmer, project box, etc.

 

[ACESFULL]

Well, I watched a couple of you tube videos on making starters. Now I want to make a stir plate. I got a 120 VAC muffin fan from work and an old HDD magnet. Now I just need to assemble the rest of the parts... A rotary fan dimmer, project box, etc.

Built one myself very easy to do and work great. But also dont forget the stir bar. :rockin:

 

[petey_c]

Yeah, I ordered an 1.5" X 5/16" bar today. Working mids tonight. Wife going to work tomorrow AM, kids off to skool. Probably off to the Shack/HD after I get home. The fan is rated for 14W and about 2.8 Krpm. Don't know how fancy/ghetto/redneck I wanna go.

 

[petey_c]

Well, after some trial and error (mostly error) I've come to a moderate success with the stir plate. Started the starter last eve and the pitcher I used had a slightly rounded bottom. The combination of that and a regular light dimmer to control a small 120 VAC muffin fan didn't fare well. The fan stopped sometime during the night. Changed the pitcher to one with a flatter bottom and found a "sweet spot" on the dimmer. It's been going good for about 2 hours now. 12 grams of Munton's "Gold" yeast in 1 quart of water with 1 cup of amber DME and a pinch of yeast nutrient. My kits arrived a little earlier today and I'll start tomorrow morning after my daughter leaves for school. That'll give me about 36 hours of starter. Cleaned out my 10 gallon pot and boiled some water in it. Cut a spigot into a 7.5 gallon (?) bucket I had and am leak testing it as I type. We'll see how this turns out in about 6 weeks....

 

[joshb_]

Both of you, please read this:
http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

Thanks for the link...great read

 

[Butter]

Justlooking, I have to agree with you about learning the basics. I've been brewing off and on for close to 20 yrs and I've made ONE starter. It is NOT required. Somehow I've made beer. The beer with my lone starter has been in the primary for a couple weeks now, but its a barleywine so it'll be awhile before I can taste it. Anyways, learning and perfecting your sanitation and brewing process will make a bigger impact on your beer than whether or not you make a starter IMO.

 

[pabloj13]

Justlooking, I have to agree with you about learning the basics. I've been brewing off and on for close to 20 yrs and I've made ONE starter. It is NOT required. Somehow I've made beer. The beer with my lone starter has been in the primary for a couple weeks now, but its a barleywine so it'll be awhile before I can taste it. Anyways, learning and perfecting your sanitation and brewing process will make a bigger impact on your beer than whether or not you make a starter IMO.

Not again.

 

[g-star]

I've been brewing off and on for close to 20 yrs and I've made ONE starter. It is NOT required. Somehow I've made beer. The beer with my lone starter has been in the primary for a couple weeks now, but its a barleywine so it'll be awhile before I can taste it. Anyways, learning and perfecting your sanitation and brewing process will make a bigger impact on your beer than whether or not you make a starter IMO.

Quite an authoritative statement for someone who has never tasted their own beer made with a starter.

 

[spenghali]

Of course it's not required, but there is scientific proof (weird concept right?) that you should use a starter.....

The choice is yours and yours alone.

 

[periwinkle1239]

I love these sorts of debates.

 

[kmk1012]

After reading the book "Yeast" I've started making starters. They are currently fermenting or lagering as we speak. Maybe I can join all this fun after some "research". I am using my temp controlled ferm chamber for the first time so my opinion may be slanted, too many variables to be consistant! Good luck with your discussion.

 

[Piratwolf]

After reading the book "Yeast" I've started making starters. They are currently fermenting or lagering as we speak. Maybe I can join all this fun after some "research". I am using my temp controlled ferm chamber for the first time so my opinion may be slanted, too many variables to be consistant! Good luck with your discussion.

While you won't be able to isolate which change contributes more, I predict that you'll be ecstatic with the results. HUGE improvement in my beers when I did both! In fact, I just posted in another thread that I dumped a pre-starter, pre-ferm-control beer last night. It was not enjoyable.

 

[petey_c]

Further adjustments are required for my stirrer. It stopped again last night. I'm now in the middle of my first 10 gallon batch (mini-mash). The starter looks nice and healthy. I'll take a SG reading before I pitch. This will also be my chance to see how my IC works with a larger batch.

 

[petey_c]

About 6+ gallons (started at 7 gal.) divided in half. Just pitched the starter and dry yeast (Not proofed. Went real old school.) Temps about .1°F difference, OG 1.05, Starter SG 1.012, kinda low I thought. I'll update when I see any activity. (Not that it matters...). Brew is AHS' London Pub Ale.

 

[Piratwolf]

About 6+ gallons (started at 7 gal.) divided in half. Just pitched the starter and dry yeast (Not proofed. Went real old school.) Temps about .1°F difference, OG 1.05, Starter SG 1.012, kinda low I thought. I'll update when I see any activity. (Not that it matters...). Brew is AHS' London Pub Ale.

Cool experiment. Be interested to see what you learn!

 

[petey_c]

The starter gravity was actually the "final". Since I didn't bother to take an OG. I started to see some airlock activity about an hour ago; about four hours after pitching.