starter, not starting ??

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wyowolf

wyowolf

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Picked up my brewing supplies and just noticed the yeast the guy gave me Wyeast 1028 was dated 4/25/12 ;-( . So thought that ok will make a starter. Looked up, followed directions and put it in my gallon carboy w airlock. Shook well etc, 6 hrs later nada ;-( no bubbles nothing? Too early ? I did smack it and swelled a tiny bit. So dead?? Sure looks that way... ;-(
 
You will get some growth. I am sure there were at least some live yeast. How much wort did you give the yeast? Did you measure gravity of wort?
What will be SG of beer? Asking this because you might have to step up.
 
I guestimated on the dme. About 4 ounces per qt. Boiled 10. Min.

No didn't take gravity reading.

Making Deception Stout. Not sure of Gravity.

Still nothing ;-( should I keep shaking it;? Been doing that every Hr...
 
wyowolf said:
I guestimated on the dme. About 4 ounces per qt. Boiled 10. Min.

No didn't take gravity reading.

Making Deception Stout. Not sure of Gravity.

Still nothing ;-( should I keep shaking it;? Been doing that every Hr...
Click to expand...

Yes keep shaking it. After about 18 total hours you'll need to step it up
 
I had a starter that showed no sign of life. After 48 hours I took a hydrometer reading and it read 1.010! (from 1.040). I pitched it and it was a monster! Blowoff tube completely filled, crazy activity and kind of a mess. It was Edwort's Oktoberfest a few weeks ago with a washed WLP029.

Take a reading, then decide. Those yeasties can be quite tricky!
 
Ok will try that, but I never took an intial reading. Never even thought about it, but i can see why now. Shook it up again this morning was just sitting there, no foam nothing!! the starsan in the airlock had some bubbles but i cant tell if it was from the shaking it or not.

Ok so if i decide to pitch it, i just pitch the whole thing in to the wort? this is the first time I have made a starter.

Thanks to all the replies...
 
One thing to think about is the gravity of your starter should be between 1.030 to 1.040. If your yeast were at a critical point, being outside of that range would definitely come into play.
 
ForumRunner_20121014_102746.png
 
Being on the lower end, 1.020, might have been a better place to start. I am sure if you step up, should be fine. Since yeast health is so vital to how your beer turns out, should be high on the priority list of things to pay mind to.
 
Yes I can see that now. Well before I never had any problems with the Wyeast Packs, smack them, they swell up super tight and pitch. This was the first problem i have encountered...

I probably put a little less DME into the water then i should have...
but as you can see in the pic it has a layer of something on the bottom. I have been shaking it everytime I think about it. took off the airlock to let some air in... then put it back on. smells like yeast :)

will take a gravity reading and see what it says...

thanks for all the replies so far...
 
Is it hard to get another yeast? Tell that guy at the store that he gave you old yeast. It might be wise to do another starter. Use a 10% w/v amount (10grams/100ml) of DME to water. Add a little extra for boil. It is good to check gravity before you give it to yeast. Cool it to ~the same temp +/-5 as yeast and pitch. Be good to invest in stir plate. Screw the shaking every hour!
 
Well not too hard. I have to go back downtown. About 30 min. I was thinking the same thing. Lesson learned!! Check the Damn date!!
 
So what if i go ahead and check the SG of the starter and then IF its fairly low go ahead and pitch it, then if nothing happens repitch with a fresh pack of yeast??

there is about a 3/8 inch layer of what i assume is white yeast on the bottom of the carboy? how long to keep on the counter?? should i refrigerate it?
 
Depending in your SG, can't answer that. 1qt would not be enough given your situation. Would have to step up. You also mentioned amount of DME, you probably used too much! 4 oz~113grams 1qt~ 0.9L = 1.044ish gravity after boil which would stress your already stressed yeast. Your building a high wall to climb! All your call. We learn from things like this.
 
My last batch was with a Wyeast pack dated in February of this year. It took about 24 hours on the stirplate before things actually got going. With you not using a stirplate, it could take even longer to get going. I've smacked a pack from Jan 23, 2012 and will be making step one (of two) starters for a batch later this week. It will be going onto the stirplate sometime this afternoon (need to make the first starter wort).

Something else... REMOVE the f'ing airlock from your starter. Replace it with a piece of sanitized foil. You WANT gas exchange to happen, NOT a blanket of CO2 in there.
 
oh ok, will remove the airlock!
so is they "white layer" yeast? its about a half inch or so...

I guess I am a bit confused about "step up" ? I thought building the starter was stepping up? so do i again make a starter and add it to this one?
 
wyowolf said:
oh ok, will remove the airlock!
so is they "white layer" yeast? its about a half inch or so...

I guess I am a bit confused about "step up" ? I thought building the starter was stepping up? so do i again make a starter and add it to this one?
Click to expand...

Take a SG reading on the starter. IF it's not low (far lower than the OG) then the yeast didn't do anything yet. The layer you're seeing could just be what came out of the pack. IF you didn't have any evidence of fermentation (not just airlock movement, but krausen and such) then it's not done yet. Starters, without stirplates, can take much longer to complete than those with stirplates. My normal time frame, for a fairly fresh pack (under a month old) is 24 hours from pitch to putting into the fridge to chill/cold crash. I recall, from the days before having a stirplate, where a starter could take more than a few days to complete.

Stepping up a starter is making 2-3 starters for a packet/vial of yeast, not just one. This allows you to get much more yeast cells in the starter, or final volume to pitch, than a single starter could. Use yeastcalc to see what size starter, or starter steps, you actually need to get to the pitch cell count target. For my coming brew day (next weekend, or end of this week) I'll be making a 1.5L then a 2.5L starter to get me just over 300 billion cells from my older pack of yeast. As a single step, on a stirplate, I'd need to make a 25L starter to get close to the same cell count. I'd rather use 400g of DME instead of 2500g of DME to get the end result. Besides, I'm not going to make a starter that's 25L in size.

BTW, I highly advise getting/making a stirplate for starters. IMO/IME, it's money well spent. Flasks are also very helpful items. I have 2L, 3L and 5L flasks. I use the 3L most often since I can use the same flask and step up to a ~3L starter without issue. Plus, the 5L doesn't easily go into my fridge to cold crash.
 
I would give it time. Some strains taake longer to get going. I always get nervous when I use wlp830 and after two days there is zero activity only to be surprised by day 3 or 4 when the starter is going crazy inside. Wait another day if possible.
 
Well, there does appear to be something going on now :)
this morning I got up and checked it again. seemed the same, however when i started to shake it up it immediately foamed up, about 3 inches or so then when you stop shaking it dies down again. so did this for a few min. I guess this means the yeast had consumed the sugar and the C02 was trapped in the liquid?

Ok, so will make another starter tonight checking SG. How do i decant the liquid off the yeast without disturbing the yeast?

How much starter should i make? the same size?

How long will it be ok to leave it out of the fridge? I wont be able to brew til probably this weekend , will it hurt to be in the pantry, in a one gallon carboy covered with foil?

Thanks again guys...

Frank
 
Chill the first, finished, starter in the fridge for 12-24 hours so that the yeast settles in the bottom. Then, carefully pour off the spent starter before adding fresh.
 
It will be fine to leave out of the fridge until this weekend. Decant like Golddiggie said, I usually decant after 24 hours in the fridge. You will see a nice seperation, same as you would when your fermentation is finished in your beer carboy. Just decant while the starter is still cold from the fridge, pour slowly! It being cold will help the yeast cake stay solid and leave about a centimeter or two of liquid in the bottle. Afetr decanting, leave the yeast out to warm up to fermentation temp and make a new starter. 10/1 ratio usually works but there is a calculator that will tell you how large of a starter to make on byo.com and you should learn to use all the calculators they offer. Your starter, if you make a new one say today, will finish before the weekend and will probably require another decant. I tend to make a starter, step it up if I need and on the 2nd round, I try to pitch at full krausen. It wont affect the flavor of your brew (at least in my experience) so dont worry about that. Just a note, you can decant and just pitch the cake at the end of the week. I personally have shorter lag times when pitching the entire starter at full krausen but methods vary from brewer to brewer. And the only way you learn is to try...
 
Ok thanks for the info!

Why does it foam up so rapidly when shaking?? that seems strange, but I guess that it means something is happening!

Will put it in the fridge and decant per instructions then make another starter tomorrow...

very much appreciated for the info thanks

Frank
 
wyowolf said:
Why does it foam up so rapidly when shaking?? that seems strange, but I guess that it means something is happening!
Click to expand...

It foams up like that due to the trapped CO2 in solution. It's actually probably still going if it keeps happening.

Using a stirplate, I let the starter go until it stops foaming and I see lots of yeast swirling around. I cold crash/chill it to get it to settle out fully and then either get ready to pitch it or make another batch of starter wort for it. After making a couple of starters, you'll recognize the signs that it's finished. Just remember, starters take longer without using a stirplate. I've found that with a Wyeast pack, that's under about 3 months old, the starter will be finished within 24 hours of pitching (on a stirplate). Normally, it's in 18 hours, or less. Similar to how second starter steps tend to react for me.

Personally, I try to leave no more than 1/4" of spent starter on top of the yeast cake when decanting.
 
OK, put in fridge last night, came home took it out and poured off the wort as best i could without spilling yeast, spilled some :(

Took a gravity reading 1.014 of course, dont know what it was. :)

cooked up one liter of wort with 3 ounces of DME per the yeast calc.
SG 1.037 cooled and repitched into the jug, shook it well... put foil back on.

Hopefully I will see some more active fermentation this time around :)

Frank
 
wyowolf said:
OK, put in fridge last night, came home took it out and poured off the wort as best i could without spilling yeast, spilled some :(

Took a gravity reading 1.014 of course, dont know what it was. :)

cooked up one liter of wort with 3 ounces of DME per the yeast calc.
SG 1.037 cooled and repitched into the jug, shook it well... put foil back on.

Hopefully I will see some more active fermentation this time around :)

Frank
Click to expand...

Dont be surprised or freaked out if you dont see any activity. Some of my starters go crazy inside the bottle and some do a whole lot of nothing! I cannot stress the "patience is a virtue" saying enough. I have multiple threads about starters I was worried about that ended up being just fine:rockin: Yeast is an organism that has been around a lot longer than us and from the advice of the many senior brewers I have received, RDWHAHB! Just keep shaking that starter everytime you walk by it over the next few days and you will be rewarded! Good job on using the calculators. There are a lot out there and most work well for those of us without the chem degree>:D Good luck on your brewday. Let me know how it turns out. What are you brewing btw?

Oh here are a few calculators I use:

www.beercalculus.com : to formulate recipes (dont use the water measurements they give, they are always off for some reason)
http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php (calculates water for mash/sparge & helps you get your measurements correct)
http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/ (calculates the efficiency of your brew house and helps improve your skills)
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html (yeast calculator I use...I like it.)
Happy Brewing!
 
My rather old yeast, in the first starter step, took a bit longer than I expected to get going. That was on a stirplate too. It was showing good sign Tuesday morning (made the starter Sunday evening). I expect it to be going into the fridge Wednesday morning (sometime) and then cold crashing for at least 12 hours (will try for 24 hours). Since the expected brew day is now Sunday, I can afford to chill it 24 hours then make the second starter step. IME, having that on a stirplate will have it finish in 12-18 hours and be ready to cold crash again.

I can only imagine how long it would have taken for the first step without a stirplate.
 
I am making Deception Creme Stout. Will make another starter tonight, probably won't get to brew til early next week now ;-( out of town this weekend.

Ok to leave starter out? Or put in fridge?

Thanks for info!
 
Put in the fridge. Should be ready to go for about a week or two. If longer, just make a little starter and give to the yeast on brew day and then pitch into your stout.
 
maybe I should just pitch it tonight?
It has foamed up much more now when i shake it then it did the first time, within a couple hours i would shake it and it foamed right up...

this am when i shook it , foamed about 4 inches then finally calmed down... seems to be chugging right along...

Can i harvest the yeast from the bottles from my last couple batches? they havent been in the fridge yet... how would i go about doing that?

thanks...
 
went ahead and made the stout. pitched the yeast... happily bubbling away this am :)

hopefully all goes well :)
 
For harvesting yeast, you can do out of the bottles and from the yeast cake. This link has a pretty good demonstration and it is what got me doing with almost every batch: http://billybrew.com/yeast-washing I take Billy's final step one step farther and condense into a smaller 3 oz jar. I am researching what was reccomended earlier in the post about freezing. To collect from the bottles, basically save the last centimeter of sediment in the bottles, and make a small starter out of that. It has to be really small so you dont shock the yeast so either save numerous bottles, or make a small starter and step it up a lot. I have swing top bottles so after my bottles are reay and cold conditioned, I collect the remainder from about a 12 pack (roughly 1/2 of a 15.2oz bottle) and make a starter out of that. You will save a ton of $ doing this. And its like brewing a lot of mini beers>:D

Your brew will come out great and the proof of that is how quickly it started fermenting. That is why I pitch most of my starters are high krausen instead of after a decant. They start within a few hours as compared to a day or two without the starter/high krausen. Watch your temps and let it sit on the yeast cake for at least 15-20 days! Try to cold crash with a swamp cooler at the end of fermentation for about a day or two to really clear up any remaining sediment stuck in suspension. Remeber, patience equals rewards.
 
Oh wow! I have had that problem before! Even with a 7 gal bucket sometimes that yeast just gets crazy. I would invest in a slightly larger fermentation bucket. Isnt it an interesting hobby? I love to sit and watch my airlock and when I lager in smaller vessels I catch myself staring at them with a flashlight to see the activity. It is amazing how yeast works.
 
well this is a 6.5 gal bucket! Man, sometimes it really bubbles a lot!! right at 68 degrees...
 
What is the temp range for the yeast? What yeast is it? Dont worry, my 7 gal bucket gets crazy too. Just use a sanitised airlock when it slows down.
 

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