Starter Not Separating - Ideas?

[CorneliusRox]

Hey guys,

I picked up a stir plate and a 2000 ml tempered erlenmeyer flask because I wanted to make a good starter out of a Wyeast 1056. I boiled up some dry malt extract (1/2 cup DME, 2 cups water), cooled it, tossed it into the flask (while keeping things super sanitized). Then I pitched the yeast, fut the foam topper on the flask, and started my stir plate enough for it to suck air into the mixture. I let that go for 18-20 hours, then I put it in the refrigerator to separate so I could decanter.

The problem is, after 24hrs, it still hadn't separated the way I thought it should. Most things I've read/videos I've seen say that it should be a nice yeast cake on the bottom with clear-ish wort on the top. It never did that. I still decanter'd it before pitching, but I feel like I did something wrong.


Also, on a side note. Do you have to wait for your starter to raise temps to ~65F before pitching? That's what I did, but the more I thought about it, I was thinking if the wort is at that mark, you should be fine to pitch cold yeast.

 

[porterpounder]

Not all yeast floculate well enough to get clear wort on top of the starter cake. Also, with a short boil for a starter the break material in the wort may not have formed and will not drop out so you may get hazy wort. Not a big deal. You'll know pretty quickly if the beer doesn't start fermenting.

You should be pitching starter yeast fairly close to the wort temp to avoid shocking the yeast. Within 5 degrees F should be OK.

 

[kev211]

I dont suppose you took any photos? With my starters the yeast seems to start settling out almost as soon as I turn off the stir plate. You should be fine, because even if you had a yeast cake with some still in suspension you had already multiplied your yeast counts significantly.

And yes, its best to let the yeast rise to match the wort temps so they can start working right away. Essentially youre trying to avoid "shocking" the yeast. Either way they'll start to ferment, its just a matter of lag time before they start

 

[CorneliusRox]

Not all yeast floculate well enough to get clear wort on top of the starter cake. Also, with a short boil for a starter the break material in the wort may not have formed and will not drop out so you may get hazy wort. Not a big deal. You'll know pretty quickly if the beer doesn't start fermenting.

You should be pitching starter yeast fairly close to the wort temp to avoid shocking the yeast. Within 5 degrees F should be OK.

Thanks for the info!

I boiled it for ~5min, but maybe I'll try longer next time.
Also, the beer is fermenting, just not the explosion of krausen I was expecting.

 

[TheMadKing]

Also the colder the better (above freezing) for cold crashing. If your fridge was 40 degrees instead of 34 that can make a difference in flocculation.

 

[kev211]

Thanks for the info!

I boiled it for ~5min, but maybe I'll try longer next time.
Also, the beer is fermenting, just not the explosion of krausen I was expecting.

How long ago did you pitch? Again, if you pitched chilled yeast that could explain the slow start. Give it some time and you should have a nice healthy krausen

 

[barnaclebob]

18-24 hours is not long enough to let it ferment before cold crashing.

 

[TheMadKing]

18-24 hours is not long enough to let it ferment before cold crashing.

Yes it is.

Brukaisers and Jamil (Mr. Malty) have both shown that ~18 hours is when yeast complete their growth phase.

You are correct that they have not "fermented out" completely, but you don't want them to. You want the yeast to multiply not produce alcohol. Anything much beyond 24 hours and the yeast only reproduce to maintain their cell density, but the overall number of cells doesn't increase.

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/11/03/estimating-yeast-growth/

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

 

[dwhite60]

I just did a starter. Used 1/2 cup DME in a quart of water. Boiled for twenty minutes.

Mine had not settled out and was still actively bubbling. I dumped about 2/3 of the liquid, gave the remainder a good swirl to suspend everything, and dumped it all into the fermenter. So far, so good.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[IslandLizard]

WLP001/WY1056/US-05 is a notoriously low flocculator. As said already, the lower the crashing temps (above freezing), the better and quicker results you get. There could have been some temp shock when you pitched the cold yeast. Next time let the decanted slurry come to room temps, or within 10°F from the wort temp. It only takes about an hour or 2 after decanting.

 

[CorneliusRox]

Also the colder the better (above freezing) for cold crashing. If your fridge was 40 degrees instead of 34 that can make a difference in flocculation.

Mine is set at 35deg F, so I feel like I should be in the ball park. It actually freezes lettuce on occasion.

I dont suppose you took any photos?

Unfortunately no. Sorry!

How long ago did you pitch?krausen

A few days ago. It made krausen, but it's a porter and they usually explode with it I feel like. It's just past its peak at this point and is starting to slow with bubbles. The krausen only went up about 4-5".

I think it's fine. I'm going to let it go a few more days before tossing it into a secondary and checking SG.

Yes it is.

Brukaisers and Jamil (Mr. Malty) have both shown that ~18 hours is when yeast complete their growth phase.

You are correct that they have not "fermented out" completely, but you don't want them to. You want the yeast to multiply not produce alcohol. Anything much beyond 24 hours and the yeast only reproduce to maintain their cell density, but the overall number of cells doesn't increase.

That's exactly what the guy at my supply store told me.

How long do you cold crash for?

 

[TheMadKing]

How long do you cold crash for?

I will do 24 hours in a pinch but 48 hours is my usual preference.

 

[frazier]

No one seems to have addressed the issue of gravity. I don't know offhand what 1/2 cup of DME weighs, but it seems like making a 2-cup starter, as described in the OP, would be very high gravity (1.067 based on some WAGs). This will stress the yeast and delay the rapid growth desired from a starter.

I generally aim for approximately 1.033 in my starters. As others have said, we are not trying to make beer in the flask - we are trying to maximize growth.

Anyway, when measuring out your DME, go by weight, not volume.

Cheers,

 

[TheMadKing]

No one seems to have addressed the issue of gravity. I don't know offhand what 1/2 cup of DME weighs, but it seems like making a 2-cup starter, as described in the OP, would be very high gravity (1.067 based on some WAGs). This will stress the yeast and delay the rapid growth desired from a starter.

I generally aim for approximately 1.033 in my starters. As others have said, we are not trying to make beer in the flask - we are trying to maximize growth.

Anyway, when measuring out your DME, go by weight, not volume.

Cheers,

Great point, I totally skipped over actually examining the volumes sorry OP!

I usually aim for 1.037 - 1.040 as per Brukaisers recommendations.

That works out to about 100g of DME per liter of wort.

You always want to make greater than a 1L starter too. If you make 1L or less, your yeast are already starting at or near saturation so you'll hardly get any growth. I usually do 1.5-1.75L in a 2L Erlenmeyer flask and that will approximately double the cell count.

edit: I'm assuming that you're starting with a WL vial or WY smack pack

 

[CorneliusRox]

No one seems to have addressed the issue of gravity. I don't know offhand what 1/2 cup of DME weighs, but it seems like making a 2-cup starter, as described in the OP, would be very high gravity (1.067 based on some WAGs). This will stress the yeast and delay the rapid growth desired from a starter.

I generally aim for approximately 1.033 in my starters. As others have said, we are not trying to make beer in the flask - we are trying to maximize growth.

Anyway, when measuring out your DME, go by weight, not volume.

Cheers,

Great point, I totally skipped over actually examining the volumes sorry OP!

I usually aim for 1.037 - 1.040 as per Brukaisers recommendations.

That works out to about 100g of DME per liter of wort.

You always want to make greater than a 1L starter too. If you make 1L or less, your yeast are already starting at or near saturation so you'll hardly get any growth. I usually do 1.5-1.75L in a 2L Erlenmeyer flask and that will approximately double the cell count.

edit: I'm assuming that you're starting with a WL vial or WY smack pack

Thanks for the info from both of you! I didn't even think about that. I've just read a lot of people stating a good rule of thumb is 1/2 a cup DME to 2 cups water. I'll try going off of SG next time.

 

[TheMadKing]

Thanks for the info from both of you! I didn't even think about that. I've just read a lot of people stating a good rule of thumb is 1/2 a cup DME to 2 cups water. I'll try going off of SG next time.

I would say the more important thing is to measure your dme by weight instead of volume. You can accurately calculate your SG that way and its easier than taking a hydrometer reading for every starter. I use a cheap analog 10lb capacity kitchen scale with oz and grams on it. I think it was less than $10 at the local home improvement store.

 

[CorneliusRox]

I would say the more important thing is to measure your dme by weight instead of volume. You can accurately calculate your SG that way and its easier than taking a hydrometer reading for every starter. I use a cheap analog 10lb capacity kitchen scale with oz and grams on it. I think it was less than $10 at the local home improvement store.

I started doing the math on this and found there to be a few too many variables that I didn't have the specifics to. That being said, what do you measure out to get a SG of 1.037-1.04 and end up with ~2L of wort?

Thanks!

 

[kev211]

I started doing the math on this and found there to be a few too many variables that I didn't have the specifics to. That being said, what do you measure out to get a SG of 1.037-1.04 and end up with ~2L of wort?

Thanks!

I always use 1g DME/10mL of water to get the appropriate gravity

So for a 2L starter you would want 200g of DME

 

[Jwin]

I always use 1g DME/10mL of water to get the appropriate gravity

So for a 2L starter you would want 200g of DME

This.
I'm in the camp of pitch he whole starter at peak growth(18-24 hours) I've never detected anything odd in my beers and they start quick. a 11g batch, a 1.5l starter is minimal.

 

[TheMadKing]

I started doing the math on this and found there to be a few too many variables that I didn't have the specifics to. That being said, what do you measure out to get a SG of 1.037-1.04 and end up with ~2L of wort?

Thanks!

Just plug it into an online calculator like brewers friend.

Kev211 is spot on though 1g/10mL