Star-San = Major Carbanation Foamover?

[PHBalanced]

Ok so I know many people (ahem Revy) live by the mantra of "don't fear the foam" but SWMBO and I got to thinking last night....

We've been brewing for two years now and bottle all of our beer. (no room or $$ for kegs)

We've never had problems with gushing bottles until the last four batches. You crack a bottle open and it's ok for the first five seconds and then begins to sprout a foam snake out the top or as you pour you get seven inches of head and one inch of beer. As we were contemplating why we came up with only two things that have changed in these batches.

1. We went from a bucket and bottling wand/siphon method of bottling to a bottling bucket with a spigot.

2. We went from using One-Step to Star-San.

What got us talking is knowing that the Star-San foam breaks down into yeast nutrient. So could it really be this simple change that is affecting our bottles/carb levels.

We have not changed the amount of priming sugar or the methods there. The only two changes made were the ones listed above.

So, any ideas? Similar experiences? etc...?

 

[Jipper]

What are you using to clean the bottles with first? StarSan is only a sanitizer and won't clean them.

 

[wildwest450]

No, star san is not the problem. Sounds like an infection to me.

 

[Revvy]

No, star san is not the problem. Sounds like an infection to me.

Ditto.

How come all of us use starsan and don't have problems like you do?

Look someplace else for your issue.

Tell us more about what you are doing.

 

[PHBalanced]

Using an oxy or pbw soak and hot water jet nozzle rinse for cleaning.

4 batches - one from each carboy and one from each bucket.

4-5 wk primary and no secondary on all batches.

I made sure to use the variety of fermenters with the thought of infection in mind.

two batches used the old racking cane to get them to the bottling bucket and two have used the new auto-siphion to make the move. I got all new tubing when I got the auto-siphon with the though of possible infection.

and it's not every bottle every time but it's enough to get us curious - that's the really odd thing. The range in age time from 3 weeks to 4-5 months. I've even gone so far as to open at varying temps.

 

[TipsyDragon]

the beers are over carbonated. could you of added to much corn sugar? or possibly fermentation wasn't done yet when you bottled? or maybe it was stuck and became unstuck? did you put the bottles in the fridge for a day before opening? did you lay them on their side in the fridge?

StarSan would have to break down into sugar to cause this problem. which it doesn't. if anything it would cause more yeast growth not more CO2 production.

 

[Revvy]

Check your bottling bucket spigot, to the bottling wand for biomatter. Folks have been finding out that the redhandled spigot that is pretty common can be a breeding ground for bottling infections.

 

[Revvy]

Also hand feel the inside of your bucket for any deep scratches.

 

[RoaringBrewer]

and it's not every bottle every time but it's enough to get us curious - that's the really odd thing.

Sounds to me like it could be as simple as your priming sugar not getting evenly mixed among the bottles...

Or it could be any of the other reasons mentioned, but not b/c you used Starsan.

 

[PHBalanced]

I'll check it tonight Revy but typically as a practice I throw it in the oxy soulution, and blast it with the pressurized water and what-not just for good measure. But the first two of the four batches were not done using the bottling bucket, they were just a standard over-the-top siphon and a bottling wand.

Yeah Tipsy - it's almost like they're over carbed but once you let the foam settle the carb level is right-on. I use the digital scale and weigh out the corn sugar and after 4-5 wks in primary the hydro readings (3 in 3 days) show me it's done fermenting. Bottles sit upright in cases upstairs (65-72 degrees) and then after three weeks I'll chill one and try it and if I like where it's at it drops down to the basement (58-62 degrees) to hang out. I put a few in the fridge and usually drink them ~3 days later. Stored upright and not sideways here as well.

It's just one of those really odd mysteries. And this is batches 14-18 so it's not like I don't have the process figured out. I even went so far as to make one of them as an extract.

Thank you again to everyone for all the ideas. Now I'm going to have to brew again just to see what happens. I do have two batches that will have been carbing for 3 weeks tomorrow - maybe I'll put one of each in the freezer for a half hour or so tonight and open them to see what's happening there. Dang this hobby and the price of experimentation ;-)

 

[PHBalanced]

I'm thinking so to Roaring - but really Star-San was the only really big change we could come up with.

When adding priming sugar I measure out 5 oz and boil that into ~3/4 c water. I cool and add half to the bottom of the bucket and let the siphon stir this around for me and add the other half as the bucket is about half full to ensure sugar should be evenly distributed. In case that helps any.

The good thing - through all of this the beer is tasting great - so I can't complain to much. It's just a pain when a friend cracks open a bottle and things go a little crazy.

 

[TipsyDragon]

maybe I'll put one of each in the freezer for a half hour or so tonight and open them to see what's happening there.

that may be your problem. I'm sure Revvy can correct me if i'm wrong here. but CO2 needs time not just temp to absorb into the beer.

When adding priming sugar I measure out 5 oz and boil that into ~3/4 c water

thats another potential source of your problem. 5oz is allot for a 5 gallon batch or beer but not unreasonably so. try using 4oz. insted. also scale your sugar addition for the amount of finished beer you actually get into your bottling bucket. if 5oz is allot for 5 gallons its way to much for 4.5 gallons.

 

[PHBalanced]

The freezer would just be me being impatiently curious. I rarely use that method. We have a dedicated beer fridge at 48 degrees downstairs.

 

[PHBalanced]

Reading other unrelated threads poses a though to me to those of you who may reading. We've also been cold crashing our beer lately and priming/bottling while still cold (around that 48-50 degree range) any thoughts on this additional information?

 

[broadbill]

Reading other unrelated threads poses a though to me to those of you who may reading. We've also been cold crashing our beer lately and priming/bottling while still cold (around that 48-50 degree range) any thoughts on this additional information?

Yes, cold beer holds more CO2 than warm beer. Therefore you need to scale back your priming sugar addition:

Follow the nomograph.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter11-4.html

 

[Revvy]

If you are bottling while the beer is still cold, and using 5 ounces of sugar, then you are WAAAAYYYY over priming. The colder the beer the less sugar you need.

The 4.5-5 ounces of sugar with many kits is rough calculated for room temp around 70+-

I usually recommend cold crashers warm the beer back to room temp and let it sit for a day before bottling to get to an equilbrium.

Or you could use Palmer's nomograph or your favorite brewing software, take a temp of your beer at bottling time and measure the sugar accordingly.

Since I tend to carb to style first thing I go on bottling day is take a grav reading and a temp reading at the same time, and imput the temp of into beersmith, and it tells me how much sugar I need. Many argue that you should imput the beer at the coldest temp it was at during the process. which will help you calculate the co2 already in solution do to cooling. I'm still not entirely sure that that debate has been settled in my mind (I think that was another one of Palmer's bad writing that has become canon,) BUT since I don't cold crash my beers, my coldest temp is not too far from the temp of the beer at bottling day.

So you might want to consider that. And next time you cold crash, take a temp reading and use THAT as your bottling temp when it is time to figure out how much sugar to use.

See I knew we'd rule out starsan.

 

[olllllo]

If you want to rule out infection. Keep a bottle at room temperature for several months. If it's infected, it'll get worse. Having them at cellar temps and drinking them relatively early may have masked this.

 

[PHBalanced]

Thanks Revy - It didn't dawn on me until I was re-reading everyone's input and caught my own comment about the beer fridge. It was a free donation from a friend that I had used to lager something and then decided to try cold crashing mainly because I could. That is also the common factor in all of these recent batches bottled which would make sense.

Looking at Palmer's graph you included it looks like I was close to an ounce high with my priming sugar. So according to that if I wanted to prime at 35 degrees I would need something like 6 oz? Something about that seems off - I must be reading that wrong.

Thanks again for all the help - it seems fitting that you're involved with a thread involving Star-San foam

 

[Ichthy]

I've had gushers and have noticed two things with them. I'm not sure if it's causal though.

1 - the beer needed to sit and carb longer
2 - there was a crapload of trub in the bottles this has happened in. I think (but am not sure) that I sucked a bunch of trub in the bottle when my bottling bucket was near empty. I don't know why this would matter, but what beer would pour out of the bottle was loaded with trub.

 

[Revvy]

You are reading it backwards, at 35 degrees to achieve a carb level of about 2.5 volumes of co2 you would need about 3 ounces of table sugar and a little less corn sugar.

 

[PHBalanced]

ah, makes sense now. also make sense out of the crazy foam I've been seeing. Well, I guess I'll make sure to bottle the next batch and see if I can fix the issue. Seeing as how the 1.10 PB Cup porter is only 1 week into fermentation it's gonna be awhile until it finishes, I can bottle it and it ages enough to crack one open. Hmm, what to brew this weekend.....

 

[PHBalanced]

Went home last night to discover SWMBO had put a bottle of our new IPA in the fridge for me Monday when I was mowing the lawn and I missed it until yesterday. Figured this was a perfect time to experiment and sure enough same issue. With this I am almost positive it was the priming/bottling at cold temps with too much corn sugar. Thanks again to all who helped. If I think about it I'll update in a few months with new information.

 

[mezak1gd]

I've had gushers and have noticed two things with them. I'm not sure if it's causal though.

1 - the beer needed to sit and carb longer
2 - there was a crapload of trub in the bottles this has happened in. I think (but am not sure) that I sucked a bunch of trub in the bottle when my bottling bucket was near empty. I don't know why this would matter, but what beer would pour out of the bottle was loaded with trub.

I've had this gusher problem before and also noticed the trub issue. I remember reading about hop particles causing this possibly. I've never cold crashed so it could be your issue but it might not be. If the temp issue doesnt solve it you might want to look into straining the wort going into the fermenter.

 

[Jipper]

The rare times I actually bottle some beer, I always use new bottles because I have a habit of rushing through cleaning and I usually miss a couple.

After you soak and jet them, do you hold them up to the light and look inside the bottles? Sometimes grime can sit in the crease of the bottle and can be missed by a quick look. Could be the issue.

 

[Revvy]

We pretty much already figured it out yesterday if you haven't noticed, gang...He's putting too much sugar in for a beer that was cold crashed/bottled cold.

 

[Jipper]

Nope, I missed that - i guess I was looking for a repsonse from the OP. Sorry about that!

 

[olllllo]

We solve real and hypothetical problems at no extra charge.

 

[Revvy]

With this I am almost positive it was the priming/bottling at cold temps with too much corn sugar. Thanks again to all who helped. If I think about it I'll update in a few months with new information.

He did at 10:30 this morning.

 

[Jipper]

Great - good to know Revvy