Spike Conical- observations and best practices

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I won’t go back with using freezers anymore after going glycol is the way to go! I went through two used freezers over a 2 yr period. The dyi glycol chiller has worked flawlessly.
 
+1 on the glycol system. Scratch and dent 5000 BTU ac unit, inkbird, Coleman extreme cooler and some elbow grease and it is working great. I planned to encase my cooler in some extra insulation to help hold temperature, but it seems to be doing well without it. Runs a couple times a day at most and maintains 40degF in the chiller. I’ll bump it down further when I go to cold crash (1st time using it).

Now that I know how efficiently it is working and how easy it actually was- I’d never consider a chamber.
 
Beardless said:
+1 on the glycol system. Scratch and dent 5000 BTU ac unit, inkbird, Coleman extreme cooler and some elbow grease and it is working great. I planned to encase my cooler in some extra insulation to help hold temperature, but it seems to be doing well without it. Runs a couple times a day at most and maintains 40degF in the chiller. I’ll bump it down further when I go to cold crash (1st time using it).

Now that I know how efficiently it is working and how easy it actually was- I’d never consider a chamber.
Click to expand...

I do know of one advantage of using a chamber: you can actually get the beer down to 32 degrees or even colder when you crash. I have the CF10 and use a Penguin chiller set at 28 degrees and about the lowest I can get my beer when crashing is about 38 degrees.

But that said, the logistical difficulties of finding and using a chamber that fits...especially with the larger fermenters....meant I was going to the chiller as the source of cooling.
 
mongoose33 said:
I do know of one advantage of using a chamber: you can actually get the beer down to 32 degrees or even colder when you crash. I have the CF10 and use a Penguin chiller set at 28 degrees and about the lowest I can get my beer when crashing is about 38 degrees.

But that said, the logistical difficulties of finding and using a chamber that fits...especially with the larger fermenters....meant I was going to the chiller as the source of cooling.
Click to expand...

Jury is out for cold crashing my CF10 with my setup. Should be doing that in the next week or so. I’m hoping everything goes well for it, but no clue how low I’ll be able to get it.
 
Beardless said:
Jury is out for cold crashing my CF10 with my setup. Should be doing that in the next week or so. I’m hoping everything goes well for it, but no clue how low I’ll be able to get it.
Click to expand...

There's a thread on here somewhere that details my journey in trying to get my CF10 to crash to 32. I tried insulating the fermenter, covered it with a moving blanket....even built a "closet" to surround it into which I directed cold air from an adjacent window air conditioner. None could get me down there. The fermenter just has too many things poking out of it that act as reverse radiators, taking in ambient temp and preventing the chiller from taking it down any lower than about 10 degrees above the temp of the glycol solution.

I have one more thing to try--I want to create a "closet" to surround my CF10 made out of 2" foamboard. Only thing preventing me from trying that is I have to figure out a way to cut such foamboard squarely on the edges so it all matches up. Not that easy to do with a 4x8 piece of 2" foamboard.... :)
 
mongoose33 said:
There's a thread on here somewhere that details my journey in trying to get my CF10 to crash to 32. I tried insulating the fermenter, covered it with a moving blanket....even built a "closet" to surround it into which I directed cold air from an adjacent window air conditioner. None could get me down there. The fermenter just has too many things poking out of it that act as reverse radiators, taking in ambient temp and preventing the chiller from taking it down any lower than about 10 degrees above the temp of the glycol solution.

I have one more thing to try--I want to create a "closet" to surround my CF10 made out of 2" foamboard. Only thing preventing me from trying that is I have to figure out a way to cut such foamboard squarely on the edges so it all matches up. Not that easy to do with a 4x8 piece of 2" foamboard.... :)
Click to expand...

After purchasing my CF10 and wondering how i was going to handle it (ie temp control is easiest in the basement, but filling and cleaning would be easiest in the garage, etc) I did a ton of research. I actually ran across your thread. That helped me decide I had to do a glycol chiller build to even stand a chance at maintaining temperature and having a fighting chance with cold crashing. So thanks for that thread, pretty much everything you did was in my head for how I might be able to maintain temps, reading how it worked for you saved me a lot of time and aggravation. [emoji1303]

Edit- on the note of the foam board: I’ve seen people use foam board insulation as backing for cutting plywood with circular saws (sacrificial place for the blade and saves the wood from tearout). I assume if it is good enough for that, you might be able to use a small battery powered circular saw to cut the board. I have a little 18V Makita 6.5 inch circular saw that I imagine using for that task (things like that are pretty much exactly why I bought it).
 
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mongoose33 said:
There's a thread on here somewhere that details my journey in trying to get my CF10 to crash to 32. I tried insulating the fermenter, covered it with a moving blanket....even built a "closet" to surround it into which I directed cold air from an adjacent window air conditioner. None could get me down there. The fermenter just has too many things poking out of it that act as reverse radiators, taking in ambient temp and preventing the chiller from taking it down any lower than about 10 degrees above the temp of the glycol solution.

I have one more thing to try--I want to create a "closet" to surround my CF10 made out of 2" foamboard. Only thing preventing me from trying that is I have to figure out a way to cut such foamboard squarely on the edges so it all matches up. Not that easy to do with a 4x8 piece of 2" foamboard.... :)
Click to expand...

I've had really good luck cutting 1" and 2" foamboard with my jigsaw and a straightedge using these blades.
https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/boschtools-ocs/t-shank-jig-saw-blades-specialty-t313aw3-34167-p/
If you are careful they'll make a clean edge and don't make a dusty mess or cause melting like some toothed blades do.
 
mongoose33 said:
There's a thread on here somewhere that details my journey in trying to get my CF10 to crash to 32. I tried insulating the fermenter, covered it with a moving blanket....even built a "closet" to surround it into which I directed cold air from an adjacent window air conditioner. None could get me down there. The fermenter just has too many things poking out of it that act as reverse radiators, taking in ambient temp and preventing the chiller from taking it down any lower than about 10 degrees above the temp of the glycol solution.

I have one more thing to try--I want to create a "closet" to surround my CF10 made out of 2" foamboard. Only thing preventing me from trying that is I have to figure out a way to cut such foamboard squarely on the edges so it all matches up. Not that easy to do with a 4x8 piece of 2" foamboard.... :)
Click to expand...

I've been thinking about doing this kind of insulated chamber too. I would love to have you try it and see if it works!

If you use the higher density foam, the kind that is usually some sort of color, you can do a pretty good job of cutting it with a utility knife. If you score it about half way through it will break relatively cleanly on the second half. The circular saw or jig saw options are also good. I would use a circular saw to get square straight cuts. Just be aware that it will make a HUGE mess. It also creates a lot of static charge, so the granules stick to everything. You will want a shop vac close by to suck it off of the floor, the walls, the board, and yourself!

Also, when sticking it all together, I would suggest that "Great Stuff" foam would be a good product to get it sealed up. It expands too, so the edges not being square would not be a big deal. The only down side is that it is also a big sticky mess to clean up.
 
NeoBrew said:
I've been thinking about doing this kind of insulated chamber too. I would love to have you try it and see if it works!
Click to expand...

What, were you Tom Sawyer in a previous life, getting people to paint your fence for you? :)

If you use the higher density foam, the kind that is usually some sort of color, you can do a pretty good job of cutting it with a utility knife. If you score it about half way through it will break relatively cleanly on the second half. The circular saw or jig saw options are also good. I would use a circular saw to get square straight cuts. Just be aware that it will make a HUGE mess. It also creates a lot of static charge, so the granules stick to everything. You will want a shop vac close by to suck it off of the floor, the walls, the board, and yourself!
Click to expand...

These are all methods I've considered...

Also, when sticking it all together, I would suggest that "Great Stuff" foam would be a good product to get it sealed up. It expands too, so the edges not being square would not be a big deal. The only down side is that it is also a big sticky mess to clean up.
Click to expand...

Given space considerations, I need to be able to put together and take apart this "closet of foam." Thus permanent sealing, such as with Great Stuff is, as they say, "contraindicated." :)

That's why I want perfectly square cuts...I can use bungee cords or buckled straps to tighten all the pieces together so they'll fit tightly together, no glue, no Great Stuff, nothing like that.

Then when done I can take it apart and stack them and store 'em.

If I could figure a way, given my garage setup, to hang a "glued together" foam closet from the ceiling, then I'd do the great-stuff thing or similar..
 
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I use the cf15 in a 50$ used standup freezer that's readily available on Craigslist. It's the same size as a regular fridge just one compartment and It fits great. Cold crashes and heats perfectly. No need to reinvent the wheel. We're just cooling liquid afterall. If your going bigger then the cf15 or plan to have multiple conicals then glycol is the way to go. Cheers
 
Blazinlow86 said:
I use the cf15 in a 50$ used standup freezer that's readily available on Craigslist. It's the same size as a regular fridge just one compartment and It fits great. Cold crashes and heats perfectly. No need to reinvent the wheel. We're just cooling liquid afterall. If your going bigger then the cf15 or plan to have multiple conicals then glycol is the way to go. Cheers
Click to expand...

Yep I thought about this route as it is a simple option, but as you said doing the glycol unit affords me the ability to do multiple conicals in the future.

I also know there is always a debate on space (which one takes up more room). In my case the CF10 has a place in the garage and the glycol unit has a nice home under my workbench. It isn’t so much the footprint being too big or too large for me, but more about what works in my space.
 
Beardless said:
Yep I thought about this route as it is a simple option, but as you said doing the glycol unit affords me the ability to do multiple conicals in the future.

I also know there is always a debate on space (which one takes up more room). In my case the CF10 has a place in the garage and the glycol unit has a nice home under my workbench. It isn’t so much the footprint being too big or too large for me, but more about what works in my space.
Click to expand...
If it works better for your setup you made the correct choice. Cheers
 
Beardless said:
Yep I thought about this route as it is a simple option, but as you said doing the glycol unit affords me the ability to do multiple conicals in the future.

I also know there is always a debate on space (which one takes up more room). In my case the CF10 has a place in the garage and the glycol unit has a nice home under my workbench. It isn’t so much the footprint being too big or too large for me, but more about what works in my space.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is really my issue. I could get an upright freezer and put it in my basement but I am currently brewing in my garage. I'd then have to carry the fermenter downstairs which I do currently with a brew bucket. But that's much lighter. So for me I'd likely have to keep the fermenter in the garage and there isn't enough room for a freezer. This has me leaning glycol as well.
 
Pintabone said:
Yeah, this is really my issue. I could get an upright freezer and put it in my basement but I am currently brewing in my garage. I'd then have to carry the fermenter downstairs which I do currently with a brew bucket. But that's much lighter. So for me I'd likely have to keep the fermenter in the garage and there isn't enough room for a freezer. This has me leaning glycol as well.
Click to expand...
I know I sound like a broken record here. If space is tight get a cf5-15. They all fit in a regular sized stand up freezer and will take up less/same sqf then a diy glycol chiller (unless of course you're brewarea is less than 6ft tall). Plus you can just plug it. Cheers
 
Blazinlow86 said:
I know I sound like a broken record here. If space is tight get a cf5-15. They all fit in a regular sized stand up freezer and will take up less/same sqf then a diy glycol chiller (unless of course you're brewarea is less than 6ft tall). Plus you can just plug it. Cheers
Click to expand...

I think I would much rather go with this approach but like I said, I don't have the room in the garage currently for an upright freezer. Seems like it's not encouraged to carry either the SS 7 gal or CF5 when full.
 
Just a thought, but instead of a gazillion ideas on how insulate a vessel to get so close to freezing, why not just rack in to a keg(s) and put them in to a craigslist freezer with a temp controller, and free up the CF 5,10,15,30 to ferment another batch, which is what it is designed for?
 
iancl said:
Just a thought, but instead of a gazillion ideas on how insulate a vessel to get so close to freezing, why not just rack in to a keg(s) and put them in to a craigslist freezer with a temp controller, and free up the CF 5,10,15,30 to ferment another batch, which is what it is designed for?
Click to expand...

Actually, a unitank by definition is designed to combine the functions of primary fermentation vessel and maturation/lagering vessel, so racking the beer to a keg as soon as primary is done kind of negates this.
Two downsides of premature racking would be:

- lots of yeast that will settle in the keg and remain in contact with the beer
- oxydation will start sooner as even with the best closed transfer system the beer will pick up some O2

If you give up these advantages then IMHO you might as well buy much cheaper SS buckets.
 
iancl said:
Just a thought, but instead of a gazillion ideas on how insulate a vessel to get so close to freezing, why not just rack in to a keg(s) and put them in to a craigslist freezer with a temp controller, and free up the CF 5,10,15,30 to ferment another batch, which is what it is designed for?
Click to expand...
The cf5/10/15 requires cooling to use the unitank features as designed. You would be correct if it was just a standard conical. Cheers
 
iancl said:
Just a thought, but instead of a gazillion ideas on how insulate a vessel to get so close to freezing, why not just rack in to a keg(s) and put them in to a craigslist freezer with a temp controller, and free up the CF 5,10,15,30 to ferment another batch, which is what it is designed for?
Click to expand...

Part of the purpose of crashing is to clear the beer. Transferring it to a keg means what falls out of the beer is now in the keg, not at the bottom of the conical.
 
iancl said:
Just a thought, but instead of a gazillion ideas on how insulate a vessel to get so close to freezing, why not just rack in to a keg(s) and put them in to a craigslist freezer with a temp controller, and free up the CF 5,10,15,30 to ferment another batch, which is what it is designed for?
Click to expand...

I got tired of Craigslist freezers crapping out! I went through two in a year and half. I’m not sure why the freezers had issues keeping beer at 68deg, hell they hardly ever had to turn on. Regardless after dealing with two freezers taking a dump I did the glycol chiller and have had way less problems. Glycol chiller runs maybe once/twice a day to keep beer at 65 deg. Way smaller footprint! I don’t miss sitting heavy ass carboys over in a chest anymore. Not to mention transferring is so much easier now under pressure! I will say I am only able to get my beer down to about 42deg for cold crashing. With that said I’m done with bulky freezers.

IMG_5758.JPG
 
Vale71 said:
Actually, a unitank by definition is designed to combine the functions of primary fermentation vessel and maturation/lagering vessel, so racking the beer to a keg as soon as primary is done kind of negates this.
Two downsides of premature racking would be:

- lots of yeast that will settle in the keg and remain in contact with the beer
- oxydation will start sooner as even with the best closed transfer system the beer will pick up some O2

If you give up these advantages then IMHO you might as well buy much cheaper SS buckets.
Click to expand...
I have a CF10 and have worked it hard for over a year (never empty). Awesome piece of hardware for fermentation, exceptionally so with the ability to control temps with their chiller, (I have mine hooked up to an inkbird that cycles a glycol chiller and the nifty warmer that fits inside their neoprene jacket), cold crashing, harvesting/ dumping, and pressure transfer. At $7 bills each, I only have one, and use it for primary, initial crashing, and harvesting yeast. From there, a $50 keg with 1/2" cut off the dip tube works great for conditioning, and the yeast/proteins that settle on the bottom isn't really much of an issue as it is a pretty tight layer by the time it's served.
As far as transfer, pre-charge your keg w/ CO2 and pressure transfer in via the liquid side, and that is probably as 02 free as you can get in the homebrew scale.
10 kegs, a freezer, and an inkbird is less than a CF 10.
Unless you can afford, and have space for 3-4 small conicals, and the ability to keep each one at the appropriate temp, my 2 cents is use the conical to ferment, and store/ condition/ lager your beer in corny's. A $50 freezer once a year is way cheaper over 5 years than a conical. I can store 10 kegs (50 gallons) in one chest freezer.
 
iancl said:
As far as transfer, pre-charge your keg w/ CO2 and pressure transfer in via the liquid side, and that is probably as 02 free as you can get in the homebrew scale.
Click to expand...
Actually, serving straight out of an unitank is as O2 free as you can get at any scale. I try and serve as much as I can straight out of the tank before transferring the rest to kegs and I must tell you it was an eye-opener the first time as far as tasting oxydation is concerned. You really cannot get fresher beer than that.

BTW 50 gallons is approximately my yearly output so I can make do with just the one tank but of course if you're brewing 100+ gallons you might need two or more.
 
iancl said:
I have a CF10 and have worked it hard for over a year (never empty). Awesome piece of hardware for fermentation, exceptionally so with the ability to control temps with their chiller, (I have mine hooked up to an inkbird that cycles a glycol chiller and the nifty warmer that fits inside their neoprene jacket), cold crashing, harvesting/ dumping, and pressure transfer. At $7 bills each, I only have one, and use it for primary, initial crashing, and harvesting yeast. From there, a $50 keg with 1/2" cut off the dip tube works great for conditioning, and the yeast/proteins that settle on the bottom isn't really much of an issue as it is a pretty tight layer by the time it's served.
As far as transfer, pre-charge your keg w/ CO2 and pressure transfer in via the liquid side, and that is probably as 02 free as you can get in the homebrew scale.
10 kegs, a freezer, and an inkbird is less than a CF 10.
Unless you can afford, and have space for 3-4 small conicals, and the ability to keep each one at the appropriate temp, my 2 cents is use the conical to ferment, and store/ condition/ lager your beer in corny's. A $50 freezer once a year is way cheaper over 5 years than a conical. I can store 10 kegs (50 gallons) in one chest freezer.
Click to expand...
Why buy a unitank if your not gonna use it as intended? The whole point of it is to transfer finished beer into the kegs. Might as well just buy a brew bucket if you're just fermenting in it and getting all the sediment in your serving kegs. Cheers
 
I hear your point, but to compare a brew bucket to a CF10 is a bit of a stretch. It is primarily a fermentation vessel, and the latest versions are pressure rated, so, yes, they can be used as a conditioning/ carbonation vessel. My point is that after fermentation, a rest, and cold crashing, you can still get great results letting your beer condition/ carbonate, for as long as it needs to get to that "perfect" age, in kegs. It frees up the pricier vessel to make more beer.
 
iancl said:
I hear your point, but to compare a brew bucket to a CF10 is a bit of a stretch. It is primarily a fermentation vessel, and the latest versions are pressure rated, so, yes, they can be used as a conditioning/ carbonation vessel. My point is that after fermentation, a rest, and cold crashing, you can still get great results letting your beer condition/ carbonate, for as long as it needs to get to that "perfect" age, in kegs. It frees up the pricier vessel to make more beer.
Click to expand...
I'm not comparing the bucket to the unitank. It's the exact opposite actually. What I'm saying is what makes the cf5-30 so great is that it allows you to rack clean finished beer into kegs similar to what professionals do in there bright tanks. If your not using proper cooling you can't actually fully use the unitank features. Remember it's primarily a fermentation vessel *AND* bright tank. If all your using it for is fermentation why bother getting it in the first place? Cheers
 
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Looking to purchase a CF10 and was thinking of getting their heating and cooling kit. Aside from the pain of swapping out ICE will it perform "cool" enough to cold crash, or is it just a waste to get their kit and try something like this? (or a freezer)
 
Tagobolts said:
Looking to purchase a CF10 and was thinking of getting their heating and cooling kit. Aside from the pain of swapping out ICE will it perform "cool" enough to cold crash, or is it just a waste to get their kit and try something like this? (or a freezer)
Click to expand...

I bought my CF10 without the temp kit. Realized it would be easier for me to ferment in the garage versus the basement for practicality (transfer from BK to CF10, cleaning, sanitizing, etc). Ended up getting just the cooling part of the temp system (I have a heat pad). Built a ~$130 glycol chiller (sans glycol right now, just water at 36*F). My 5000 BTU ac unit was from Walmart for like $100, old unused cooler (free), piece of plywood and other odds/ends ~$30. If you can craigslist or scratch n dent the window unit you could do a lot better.

Had a couple cool nights, got my heating pad to wrap around the cone and it doesn’t really fit well, bought their heating pad separate.

My recommendation- if you can swing it, go full monte. The temp on mine is maintaining great with the setup in my garage, and I don’t have the neoprene cover on it (setup and filled CF10 before it was delivered). Obviously it depends on your situation and where you’ll put it, but I found (by research on here) people were “meh” to “works good” about chambers for the conical, while people who bought / built glycol chillers for em seemed more satisfied.

EDIT: re-read your post, to answer the question asked better: I am working mine down to ~40degF now, it is working well. I’m taking it slowly just because I haven’t added the glycol to the cooler yet and don’t want to freeze the water in the cooler from extended AC unit running. Can’t speak to ferm chamber/freezer other than my research on here when deciding what to do.
 
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For those of you with the temp coil, how do you manage taking the lid on/off for filling, dry hopping, cleaning etc.?

I was thinking of a pulley system to raise it straight up over the tank. It seems a bit excessive, but could be fun/helpful. Thoughts?
 
tmschmal said:
For those of you with the temp coil, how do you manage taking the lid on/off for filling, dry hopping, cleaning etc.?

I was thinking of a pulley system to raise it straight up over the tank. It seems a bit excessive, but could be fun/helpful. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I suppose that depends on how large a fermenter you have, maybe, but you're overthinking this otherwise, IMO.

To clean it, I just take the lid off. That's one of the selling points of the Spike offering--you can get at all of it to clean. The cooling coil can just be pulled out if desired, or you can remove the lid and coil together, though with that you need a place to put it, and the first time the coil will have krausen and yeast and hop gunk on it.

When I fill my CF10, I go through the racking valve to do that, via a pump from the BK. I put a camlock to TC adapter on it and attach the hose from the pump. Easy peasy.

When I oxygenate I don't use the aeration stone they offer, I have a long aeration wand and I just pull the cooling coil out of the way a bit and stick it down through the top 4" hole in the lid.

You can add dry hops the same way, or you can do something like this:

hopdropper1.jpg hopdropper2.jpg hopdropper3.jpg


Here's how it works in practice:



That's how I do it; there are others who have similar setups in this thread, all about no-oxygen dry hopping. Lots of interesting ways people are trying to solve the problem, I think the entire thread is worth a read.
 
Tagobolts said:
Ended up getting a CF15 but without the cooling. Going to just purchase a stand up freezer to cool it down. Didn't want to have to purchase a glycol chiller and will give this a shot.
Click to expand...

Everything else being equal, I'd prefer a setup like you're proposing, i.e., a freezer. Cheaper, and you should be able to crash to whatever temp you want; I can't get my CF10 down below about 38 degrees even using a Penguin chiller.

But....just so you are aware...

Two things kept me from going in that direction, once I had the Spike in my possession. First was that I couldn't easily roll it over to my sink for cleaning. Second was being able to get wort to it given my setup and where I have the BK in relation to the freezer (yours may be different).

The Spike *can* be cleaned-in-place, but you'll have to remove the three ports--sampling valve, temp probe, racking valve-- to be able to get at the gunk that accumulates in them on the inside. I pull mine off and soak them in a small 2-gallon tub w/ PBW, while I'm cleaning the rest of it. I replace them with TC caps and then set it to cleaning using a CIP ball. But initially, I spray the fermenter out and drain the gunk out of the bottom, and that would be tough if it were sitting in a freezer.

You may be able, when empty, to easily lift it out of the freezer and move it to a more convenient place to clean, and if so, much of this is moot. I'd probably lift it out (if it can easily be done) and put it on a rolling dolly to move it wherever I wanted to clean it.

Don't get me wrong--the glycol approach works, but by the time you buy the temp control kit from Spike and a glycol chiller, you're into it for upwards of $1200. Which you know. :) From a cost point of view, a homemade glycol approach would be cheaper. I did one using the freezer compartment of my ferm chamber refrigerator and it worked. Cost, besides the refrigerator which I already had, was only about $75 including the glycol. It wasn't as fast as the Penguin (nothing is), but it was able to effectively control ferm temps and I was able to get it down to 38-40 degrees. This with a CF10.

THE ideal temp control approach, for me, would be a freezer I could roll the fermenter into, like a mini walk-in freezer.

Good luck and please report back when you do this....
 

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