Spike Complete System

[augiedoggy]

I start ramping up after an hour of holding at mash temp. It takes like 45 mins orclose to it, to get the whole mash from say 150 to 165 then I sparge at between 1.5 and 2 gpm rate which takes about another 40 mins or so... dont forget this is on a 3bbl system.. I did the same at home which took way less time and sparge at 1gpm pr less.

 

[Bohern]

I start ramping up after an hour of holding at mash temp. It takes like 45 mins orclose to it, to get the whole mash from say 150 to 165 then I sparge at between 1.5 and 2 gpm rate which takes about another 40 mins or so... dont forget this is on a 3bbl system.. I did the same at home which took way less time and sparge at 1gpm pr less.

Thanks man! This is about the same thing or close to what I am doing. At the end of the mash I ramp up to 168, hold for 10 min, then kill the HLT temp and start sparge.

 

[TheMadKing]

@augiedoggy and @TheMadKing how do you guys handle doing a mash out? Meaning ramp up and how long before you start sparge?

I generally don't bother with a proper mash out, but when I do, I shut off my wort recirc pump at about 45 minutes into the mash and start heating the HLT water to 170, then I just start sparging with it rather than ramping my entire mash.

 

[augiedoggy]

I generally don't bother with a proper mash out, but when I do, I shut off my wort recirc pump at about 45 minutes into the mash and start heating the HLT water to 170, then I just start sparging with it rather than ramping my entire mash.

This is what I did for a long time at home when my efficiency was 87-88%. When I started ramping the mash up before sparging it jumped to 91% and I dont know if it was from just extending the mash period, or the mashout or the fact that I also slowed my sparge flow rate down at the same time.

 

[Gibberoni]

How does the locline connect? I have never used one, but I may pick one up to see if that helps my efficiency at all.

I bought a kit that came with a threaded connection, and took out the push to fit fitting where the mash return line went, and screwed in the loc line there.

 

[Rlawlyes]

I bought a kit that came with a threaded connection, and took out the push to fit fitting where the mash return line went, and screwed in the loc line there.

Alright, thanks.

 

[Rlawlyes]

Alright, so I am in the middle of a brew now and I'm trying to take everyone's advice about throttling the recirc back to a trickle. When doing so, to maintain my mash temp I need to keep the HLT 18° hotter than my MT (MT@152, HLT@170). When I was running the recirc full bore I was only 3° difference between MT and HLT. Does this seem right? The HLT water recirc is running wide open, the MT is throttled back to a slow stream.

 

[augiedoggy]

Alright, so I am in the middle of a brew now and I'm trying to take everyone's advice about throttling the recirc back to a trickle. When doing so, to maintain my mash temp I need to keep the HLT 18° hotter than my MT (MT@152, HLT@170). When I was running the recirc full bore I was only 3° difference between MT and HLT. Does this seem right? The HLT water recirc is running wide open, the MT is throttled back to a slow stream.

This doesnt make any sense? Your saying your loosing 18 degrees in the 10 minutes it takes the liquid to be deposited on the top of your mash tun at 170 degrees to the time it reaches the temp probe at or near the exit port of your mash tun?

Are you brewing outdoors someplace really cold and windy?

are you recirculating the water around in your HLT?

btw 1.5-2 gpm is more than a trickle..

 

[Rlawlyes]

Once I opened up the recirc valve a but more the temperature difference doesn't need to be as significant. I don't have a way to check the actual gpm. I brew in my temperature controlled basement. I used to run the recirc wide open and only had to keep the HLT 3°F warmer than the mash temp. Throttling the recirc back I need to increase the temperature difference.

 

[augiedoggy]

I can only share my experience over the last 6 years of using my system here.
I use a rims in my home setup but the temp probe of the wort leaving the rims tube in my setup is only 1-2 degrees higher than the temp reading of the wort leaving the bottom of my MT heading to the rims. This is with a 16 gallon stainless bayou classic kettle which is non insulated and this is with actual measured 1.8gpm I brew in a spare bedroom converted to a home brewery room.

 

[Bohern]

Well I just poured a batch down the drain. I only used campden tablets to remove chlorine and the finished batch had a rubber hose type of taste. Does anyone just use the tablets? I was told I could but obvious this seems wrong now.

 

[augiedoggy]

Well I just poured a batch down the drain. I only used campden tablets to remove chlorine and the finished batch had a rubber hose type of taste. Does anyone just use the tablets? I was told I could but obvious this seems wrong now.

the tablets arent the cause.

 

[Bohern]

the tablets arent the cause.

Would a high temp sparge cause this band aid plastic type of taste?

 

[Blazinlow86]

Alright, so I am in the middle of a brew now and I'm trying to take everyone's advice about throttling the recirc back to a trickle. When doing so, to maintain my mash temp I need to keep the HLT 18° hotter than my MT (MT@152, HLT@170). When I was running the recirc full bore I was only 3° difference between MT and HLT. Does this seem right? The HLT water recirc is running wide open, the MT is throttled back to a slow stream.

This is why it's typically recommend with a **Herms** system to mill looser/ mill slowly/ use rice hulls to get a good flowing grist which will allow faster recirculation without channeling for better heating performance. I've tried milling tight and recirculating slowly and milling loose and recirculating faster. I get the same efficiency both ways however milling tight and recirculating slowly gives the same result your getting. Many rims users here disagree with this but if you go browse the electric brewery forums this is a common occurrence most new Herms users have. Cheers

 

[Blazinlow86]

Well I just poured a batch down the drain. I only used campden tablets to remove chlorine and the finished batch had a rubber hose type of taste. Does anyone just use the tablets? I was told I could but obvious this seems wrong now.

Any chance your actually using a rubber garden hose to fill your kettles? My buddy made that mistake several times at the beginning and all his beer tasted like rubber hose. He stopped using the hose and the taste went away. Cheers

 

[Bohern]

I did actually so I need to use an RV hose?

 

[Blazinlow86]

I did actually so I need to use an RV hose?

Yes most likely. You could try pouring a glass of water through the hose and from your tap and see if you taste the difference. It was super obvious when my buddy did it. It's possible different quality of hoses won't be as bad but generally speaking I wouldn't recommend it. Cheers

 

[Bohern]

Welp I have solved the hose problem from this point forward. The sad part on the batch thrown out is I hit all of my numbers.

 

[Gibberoni]

I did actually so I need to use an RV hose?

I currently use a garden hose to fill my containers and have no issues. I did not get the cheap brands from stores, its a middle range (~$30 for 25ft). I run the hose for 5 minutes AFTER it starts to come out cold, and dump all of that water. Then I start filling again. I find if I use the water that first comes out, it tastes like rubber.

This is a temp solution for me, currently working on adding another connection from my water supply to right over the brewery.

On another note... totally missed my numbers again. I have no idea what is going on again. Haha. Brewed an IPA that was supposed to come out to 1.066 OG (and that is at 70% efficiency), ended up with 1.055 (~56% eff). I did a fast recirc this time (because it worked so well with my wee heavy, hit those numbers right on). I also mashed for 1.5 hours rather than 1.

 

[Bohern]

I currently use a garden hose to fill my containers and have no issues. I did not get the cheap brands from stores, its a middle range (~$30 for 25ft). I run the hose for 5 minutes AFTER it starts to come out cold, and dump all of that water. Then I start filling again. I find if I use the water that first comes out, it tastes like rubber.

This is a temp solution for me, currently working on adding another connection from my water supply to right over the brewery.

On another note... totally missed my numbers again. I have no idea what is going on again. Haha. Brewed an IPA that was supposed to come out to 1.066 OG (and that is at 70% efficiency), ended up with 1.055 (~56% eff). I did a fast recirc this time (because it worked so well with my wee heavy, hit those numbers right on). I also mashed for 1.5 hours rather than 1.

I have only been off a couple of numbers so not sure what we are doing differently. My first brew called for a target of 1.044 and I hit 1.042. And same difference on second batch

 

[TheMadKing]

Alright, so I am in the middle of a brew now and I'm trying to take everyone's advice about throttling the recirc back to a trickle. When doing so, to maintain my mash temp I need to keep the HLT 18° hotter than my MT (MT@152, HLT@170). When I was running the recirc full bore I was only 3° difference between MT and HLT. Does this seem right? The HLT water recirc is running wide open, the MT is throttled back to a slow stream.

I can only share my experience over the last 6 years of using my system here.
I use a rims in my home setup but the temp probe of the wort leaving the rims tube in my setup is only 1-2 degrees higher than the temp reading of the wort leaving the bottom of my MT heading to the rims. This is with a 16 gallon stainless bayou classic kettle which is non insulated and this is with actual measured 1.8gpm I brew in a spare bedroom converted to a home brewery room.

I agree with Augie, something is very wrong.

When you say you need your HLT temp 18 degrees higher to maintain mash temps, how are you determining that? I understand what you're saying about lower flow rate means that you would need a higher HLT temp to RAISE mash temp, but not to maintain it surely.

Can you walk us through your mash in process and where exactly you are measuring your temperature?

Here is mine for reference with an actual recipe and actual numbers:

The recipe calls for single mash rest at 152F. Beersmith calls for my strike water to be at 159F to account for temp loss when I add the grain.

• To get the water in my mash tun to 159 I set my panel to 163 because I have observed a 4 degree lag between the HLT water and my Mash tun
• Press go and begin to heat HLT water with a pump recirculating it in the HLT
• Fill my mash tun to the strike water level calculated by beersmith (6.25 gallons in this case)
• Begin recirculating my strike water through the HERMS coil (so now I'm heating both HLT and mash water at the same time).
• Add water to the mash to bring the level back up to 6.25 gallons, since it has now dropped due to the hoses and HERMS coil (I could calculate this ahead of time, but this just seems easier to me)
• Wait until my mash water is at strike temp (added acids/campden/brewing salts)
• Turn off all my pumps and close all valves - at this point my mash tun water is at 159 and my HLT water is at 163
• Mash in grain and stir, ensuring that the temp levels off at 152 - add cold water or hot water from HLT as needed to hit the temp (I've never needed to)
• Let the mash sit for 10 minutes covered for the grain bed to set
• Set my HLT temp to 156 to account for the 4 degree loss and begin recirculating both mash and HLT water again with the valves BARELY cracked on the mash recirc
• I watch the mash tun outlet temperature (mash going TO the HERMS coil) as an indicator of bulk mash temp - if it starts to drop over the course of my 60 minute mash, I will raise my HLT temp by 2-4 degrees to compensate but I rarely need to do this
• At the end of 60 minutes I shut off the mash recirc and switch hoses around for the sparge - and simultaneously set the HLT to 170
• Once the HLT hits 170 I'll start sparging

 

[TheMadKing]

I did actually so I need to use an RV hose?

I also like the expandable hoses from home depot - the black ones are drinking water safe and easier to store than an RV hose

 

[augiedoggy]

I also like the expandable hoses from home depot - the black ones are drinking water safe and easier to store than an RV hose

I use the flat rv hoses that are similar to the expandable ones I am actually running the hose from my bathroom to my brewroom every brewday.

 

[Rlawlyes]

I agree with Augie, something is very wrong.

When you say you need your HLT temp 18 degrees higher to maintain mash temps, how are you determining that? I understand what you're saying about lower flow rate means that you would need a higher HLT temp to RAISE mash temp, but not to maintain it surely.

Can you walk us through your mash in process and where exactly you are measuring your temperature?

Here is mine for reference with an actual recipe and actual numbers:

The recipe calls for single mash rest at 152F. Beersmith calls for my strike water to be at 159F to account for temp loss when I add the grain.

• To get the water in my mash tun to 159 I set my panel to 163 because I have observed a 4 degree lag between the HLT water and my Mash tun
• Press go and begin to heat HLT water with a pump recirculating it in the HLT
• Fill my mash tun to the strike water level calculated by beersmith (6.25 gallons in this case)
• Begin recirculating my strike water through the HERMS coil (so now I'm heating both HLT and mash water at the same time).
• Add water to the mash to bring the level back up to 6.25 gallons, since it has now dropped due to the hoses and HERMS coil (I could calculate this ahead of time, but this just seems easier to me)
• Wait until my mash water is at strike temp (added acids/campden/brewing salts)
• Turn off all my pumps and close all valves - at this point my mash tun water is at 159 and my HLT water is at 163
• Mash in grain and stir, ensuring that the temp levels off at 152 - add cold water or hot water from HLT as needed to hit the temp (I've never needed to)
• Let the mash sit for 10 minutes covered for the grain bed to set
• Set my HLT temp to 156 to account for the 4 degree loss and begin recirculating both mash and HLT water again with the valves BARELY cracked on the mash recirc
• I watch the mash tun outlet temperature (mash going TO the HERMS coil) as an indicator of bulk mash temp - if it starts to drop over the course of my 60 minute mash, I will raise my HLT temp by 2-4 degrees to compensate but I rarely need to do this
• At the end of 60 minutes I shut off the mash recirc and switch hoses around for the sparge - and simultaneously set the HLT to 170
• Once the HLT hits 170 I'll start sparging

I believe my issue on this last brew was that I had the mash recirc too slow. Which theoretically, I should be picking up more heat from the HLT/HERMS due to slower speed and longer time inside the HERMS coil, however that was not the case.

My process is pretty close to yours.

The recipe calls for single mash rest at 152F. Beersmith calls for my strike water to be at 165 to account for temp loss when I add the grain.

• To get the water in my mash tun to 165 I set my panel to 175 because it is faster heating the strike water when the HLT is much hotter.
• Press go and begin to heat HLT water with a pump recirculating it in the HLT
• Fill my mash tun to the strike water level calculated by beersmith (7.88 gallons in this case)
• Begin recirculating my strike water through the HERMS coil (so now I'm heating both HLT and mash water at the same time).
• Wait until my mash water is at strike temp (added acids/campden/brewing salts)
  
• Reduce HLT controller to 3 degrees above mash temp. (This differential works perfect when recirc is full bore, I am still dialing in the temp with recirc throttled back. Towards the end of my last brew I opened up the recirc valve and the differential was closer to 5 degrees.)
• Add cold water to HLT to help drop temp quickly
• Turn off my wort pump and close MT valve - at this point my mash tun water is at 165 and my HLT water is at 157
• Mash in grain and stir, ensuring that the temp levels off at 152
• Let the mash sit for 5 minutes covered
• Stir the mash
• Turn wort pump back on and throttle back to about 1/4 open.
• I watch the mash tun outlet temperature (mash going TO the HERMS coil) as an indicator of bulk mash temp - if it starts to drop over the course of my 60 minute mash, I will raise my HLT temp by 2-4 degrees to compensate but I rarely need to do this.
• At the end of 60 minutes I shut off the mash recirc, add silicone hose to mash recirc port, and switch hoses around for the sparge - and simultaneously set the HLT to 168
• Once the HLT hits 168 I'll start sparging

My issue the last brew was during step 6, I had the Mash recirc barely cracked (trickle) and in order to keep my Mash temp anywhere near 152, I had to turn the HLT temp up. (15°-18° higher than mash) Once I opened up the mash recirc a bit (slow stream) the differential was closer to 5°.

 

[Bohern]

I also like the expandable hoses from home depot - the black ones are drinking water safe and easier to store than an RV hose

The black expandable one was what I used.

I think the mistake I made as mashing out at above 170 deg. I messed up and left the HLT heating and my sparge water got hotter

 

[Blazinlow86]

The black expandable one was what I used.

I think the mistake I made as mashing out at above 170 deg. I messed up and left the HLT heating and my sparge water got hotter

I can almost guarantee if your beer tastes like garden hose and you used a garden hose that's not food grade it's the culprit. I'm pretty sure in Palmer's how to brew it even specifically states there never to do it that way for that exact reason. Cheers

 

[BeerMaverick]

This

The mash recirc flow rate has a much bigger effect than the sparge flow rate. If get channeling during your mash you're effectively only mashing the grain that's in the channel walls and there's nothing to sparge.

Yesterday I brewed an amber ale and ended up hitting 80% efficiency for the first time on my spike system with a crush size of 0.040 and the slowest flow rate I could coax out of my pump. It was barely trickling.

Apparently the guy that told me to increase my crush size was an idiot. But he said it so confidently!

I believe I'm that idiot, unless someone else said the same thing. I crush my grain to 0.045" based on what Kal at theelectricbrewery suggests about grinding coarser for recirculating systems. He crushes at 0.047" (and is far from an idiot if you've checked out his site ). I am in the mid-90s in terms of mash efficiency for lighter beers using a crush of 0.045". His reasoning is that, for recirculating systems, if you grinder finer you have more chance of channeling / side-wall shunting. In contrast, on a non-recirc system, if you go finer, your efficiency will climb. To each their own, but I've brewed roughly 40 times on this system and I get the highest efficiency at 0.045".

 

[augiedoggy]

I believe I'm that idiot, unless someone else said the same thing. I crush my grain to 0.045" based on what Kal at theelectricbrewery suggests about grinding coarser for recirculating systems. He crushes at 0.047" (and is far from an idiot if you've checked out his site ). I am in the mid-90s in terms of mash efficiency for lighter beers using a crush of 0.045". His reasoning is that, for recirculating systems, if you grinder finer you have more chance of channeling / side-wall shunting. In contrast, on a non-recirc system, if you go finer, your efficiency will climb. To each their own, but I've brewed roughly 40 times on this system and I get the highest efficiency at 0.045".

I crush at .030 and recirculate with NO rice hulls... 6 years on this system-91% brewhouse efficiency at home with lower recirc flow and no issues holding or step mashing at as little as 1.5gpm with non insulated tun. We use .035 crush at the brewpub with rice hulls (need faster recirc speed there because of mass).. we get 85% average there.. just pointing out theres more than one way to skin a cat. Slower flow allows you to crush finer and get higher efficiency with no negative tradeoff. If you cant get it to hold or control temps this way then something else in deed off and causing it. nothing wrong with what your doing, unless your want better efficiency and thats what most here were asking about so..

its really simple.. finer crush = more surface area and better exraction of starches from the grain on hand. mash temp loss happens at a much slower rate than even one gallon per minute flow can overcome unless your outside in cold weather.

You could not crush the grain at all and still end up with beer and zero chance of flow issues... you will just need to waste a lot more grain.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I believe I'm that idiot, unless someone else said the same thing. I crush my grain to 0.045" based on what Kal at theelectricbrewery suggests about grinding coarser for recirculating systems. He crushes at 0.047" (and is far from an idiot if you've checked out his site ). I am in the mid-90s in terms of mash efficiency for lighter beers using a crush of 0.045". His reasoning is that, for recirculating systems, if you grinder finer you have more chance of channeling / side-wall shunting. In contrast, on a non-recirc system, if you go finer, your efficiency will climb. To each their own, but I've brewed roughly 40 times on this system and I get the highest efficiency at 0.045".

That's also been my experience with my Kal clone. Its made over 1200 gallons of great wort to date. Cheers

 

[BeerMaverick]

I crush at .030 and recirculate with NO rice hulls... 6 years on this system-91% brewhouse efficiency at home with lower recirc flow and no issues holding or step mashing at as little as 1.5gpm with non insulated tun. We use .035 crush at the brewpub with rice hulls (need faster recirc speed there because of mass).. we get 85% average there.. just pointing out theres more than one way to skin a cat. Slower flow allows you to crush finer and get higher efficiency with no negative tradeoff. If you cant get it to hold or control temps this way then something else in deed off and causing it. nothing wrong with what your doing, unless your want better efficiency and thats what most here were asking about so..

its really simple.. finer crush = more surface area and better exraction of starches from the grain on hand. mash temp loss happens at a much slower rate than even one gallon per minute flow can overcome unless your outside in cold weather.

You could not crush the grain at all and still end up with beer and zero chance of flow issues... you will just need to waste a lot more grain.

Agreed about more than one way to do things. I grind coarse (0.045") and recirc with the pump valves all the way open (the line loc has allowed me to do this without pounding the grain bed). I used to grind finer and recirc slower, but my efficiency was lower so it's interesting that you're having the opposite results. For light beers like pale ales that have less grain in the MLT I'm around 95% mash efficiency using this method... not that it matters as long as you can consistently predict your efficiency, but just saying that this method has worked for me (and Kal).