Spiced Saison - Cardamom, Cinnamon, Cloves, Saffron, Sumac, Allspice, Liquorice, Turmeric, Ginger, Juniper

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frithy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2023
Messages
55
Reaction score
32
Location
China
Experiment - Spiced Saison (16E)
Batch Size16 L
Boil Size19.5 L
Boil Time1.25 hr
Efficiency70%
OG1.054 sg
FG1.014 sg
ABV5.5%
Bitterness25.6 IBU (Tinseth)
Color6.4 srm (Morey)
Fermentables
NameTypeAmountMashedLateYieldColor
Pale Ale MaltGrain750 gYesNo80%3.5 srm
Pilsen MaltGrain750 gYesNo81%1.2 srm
Red Yeast RiceGrain750 gYesNo70%???
Pale Wheat MaltGrain750 gYesNo85%2.4 srm
Caramel Vienne Malt 20LGrain500 gNoNo78%20.0 srm
Unrefined Brown Cane SugarSugar500 gNoNo100%???
Total grain: 4 kg
Hops
NameAlphaAmountUseTimeFormIBU
Fuggles4.5%5 gBoil1 hrPellet3.4
Hallertau4.5%5 gBoil1 hrPellet3.4
Saaz4.5%5 gBoil1 hrPellet3.4
Fuggles4.5%15 gBoil15 minPellet5.1
Hallertau4.5%15 gBoil15 minPellet5.1
Saaz4.5%15 gBoil15 minPellet5.1
Miscs
NameTypeUseAmountTime
Black Cardamom (dried)SpiceBoil0.5 g15 min
Cinnamon (dried)SpiceBoil3 g15 min
Cloves (dried)SpiceBoil2 g15 min
Saffron (dried)SpiceBoil1 g15 min
Sumac (dried)SpiceBoil50 g15 min
Allspice (dried)SpiceBoil3 g15 min
Liquorice (dried)SpiceBoil5 g15 min
Fresh TurmericSpiceBoil10 g15 min
Fresh Wild Bitter Blue GingerSpiceBoil5 g15 min
Juniper Berries (dried)SpiceBoil3 g15 min
YeastsType
Belle SaisonBelgian Style Saison Ale Yeast
Directions:
Mash grains in a bag at about 65c for an hour,
sparge, strain, and remove bag
add sugar, caramel vienna, and first 15 grams of hops into a new bag and boil for an hour,
strain and remove bag,
add the remaining 45 grams of hops and all the spices into another bag and boil for another 15 minutes,
strain and remove bag,
let cool a bit,
throw into fermentor,
pitch yeast when about room temperature,
and, finally, let ferment for a few months before bottling.

What I'm wanting to do is use these spices to add to the bouquet of the saison and enliven its chroma with bright red and orange hues with no one constituent of the ingredients dominating. Preferably, each spice would be too subtle to even distinguish individually; simply blending together into one harmonious whole.

The problem is that I've never used any of these spices before and have no idea what I'm doing. Further, I've never even brewed beer. Even worse, I don't even cook and have only walked into my kitchen a handful of times in my life. Hell, I barely even drink and have never had a saison before.

So, any advice or feedback is appreciated.
 
Last edited:
It's a lot of spices. Hardly you will get something balanced, because flavours could stack up.

Another idea is making small tinctures with each spice and add individually at bottling, with a syringe. Could use high proof alcohol or vodka.

Cutting sugar also it's a option. I used to brew with sugar in the beginning. And dropped. Saison yeasts usually gives all the spice flavour you want in the beer.

Personally, I made some experiments with spice tinctures. It's interesting. Just test before because even 1ml in a 600ml bottle could be overwhelming. Cinnamon and clove are two examples of it.

Good luck!
 
Will answer this as if it is serious, in case someone else comes across it in the future.
  • When brewing with spices, figure out how much you need, and then use a lot less. My rule of thumb is a third of what I think I need, and I still get burned with overspiced, undrinkable beer sometimes.
  • Consider adding spices in a hop-stand type addition; i.e., after the boil is done and you've cooled to 150-160 F, stop cooling, add the spices, and let them sit for ~10 minutes. Saffron, in particular, I wouldn't boil for 15 minutes.
  • Do a water-only run before you actually brew the beer. That is, get the same amount of water and add the same amount of spices at the same time, and make a spice tea. If it tastes right to you, go ahead and brew the beer as planned.
  • No reason not to mash with caramel malts. I've never boiled them before (in a bag or not), and I'd worry about extracting astringent and bitter tastes you don't want.
  • I vastly prefer green cardamom to black.
  • Sumac and turmeric don't seem to fit with the others, taste-wise. In any case, it seems like hugely too much sumac.
  • I'd guess you won't be able to taste the saffron, and it's probably $5-10 worth, though it depends on availability where you are.
  • Add sugar right after you've removed the kettle from the heat. Otherwise you risk scorching if it doesn't dissolve right away.
  • My guess is you want no more than 5 g/gallon total for your spices. Less if you decide to boil them. But make the tea and try it.
 
It's a lot of spices. Hardly you will get something balanced, because flavours could stack up.

Another idea is making small tinctures with each spice and add individually at bottling, with a syringe. Could use high proof alcohol or vodka.

Cutting sugar also it's a option. I used to brew with sugar in the beginning. And dropped. Saison yeasts usually gives all the spice flavour you want in the beer.

Personally, I made some experiments with spice tinctures. It's interesting. Just test before because even 1ml in a 600ml bottle could be overwhelming. Cinnamon and clove are two examples of it.

Good luck!

Thanks! I had the same idea about flavours stacking so tried to spread out the profile. The tincture idea is interesting and I'll be careful with the clove, I keep seeing posts saying it's quite powerful. Actually, I'm adding the cane sugar mainly for its taste and colour. It's so delicious and fragrant.

Thanks again.


Will answer this as if it is serious, in case someone else comes across it in the future.
  • When brewing with spices, figure out how much you need, and then use a lot less. My rule of thumb is a third of what I think I need, and I still get burned with overspiced, undrinkable beer sometimes.
  • Consider adding spices in a hop-stand type addition; i.e., after the boil is done and you've cooled to 150-160 F, stop cooling, add the spices, and let them sit for ~10 minutes. Saffron, in particular, I wouldn't boil for 15 minutes.
  • Do a water-only run before you actually brew the beer. That is, get the same amount of water and add the same amount of spices at the same time, and make a spice tea. If it tastes right to you, go ahead and brew the beer as planned.
  • No reason not to mash with caramel malts. I've never boiled them before (in a bag or not), and I'd worry about extracting astringent and bitter tastes you don't want.
  • I vastly prefer green cardamom to black.
  • Sumac and turmeric don't seem to fit with the others, taste-wise. In any case, it seems like hugely too much sumac.
  • I'd guess you won't be able to taste the saffron, and it's probably $5-10 worth, though it depends on availability where you are.
  • Add sugar right after you've removed the kettle from the heat. Otherwise you risk scorching if it doesn't dissolve right away.
  • My guess is you want no more than 5 g/gallon total for your spices. Less if you decide to boil them. But make the tea and try it.

It's completely serious in the sense that I've already boughten the ingredients and will definitely be brewing this. I guess with my lack of experience, anything I do beer-wise could be considered non-serious though.

For your points,
  • For the quantities, I looked at other recipes which used each spice, threw out the high outliers, and then divided the average suggested by half (or more).
  • Great idea; I'll give it a go this way.
  • This is an idea I was playing with as it'd allow for experimenting with quantities and such before committing. I'll do it this way.
  • Got it, I'll add them to the mash.
  • I'll play with both in the tea.
  • I was afraid the spices were too Christmassy and wanted to balance it all out. I'll fiddle about with it in the tea. (The sumac hasn't shipped yet, so I might leave it out)
  • It was 35rmb, so about seven bucks. I'm adding it mainly to increase the colour saturation of the brew though I do quite like the smell.
  • Thanks, I'll do that.
  • I'll add incrementally in the tea to get a feel for it.

Thanks for your suggestions, they were really helpful.
 
Last edited:
That’s a hell of a lot of spices, both in overall and individual quantities in my opinion. I can’t see that being a tasty beer.

Also (again in my opinion), that’s a lot of late hops for a spiced beer. Y

You’re going to end up with a flood of weird flavors and aromas that I can’t see blending together well.
 
Honestly, for a first beer I would make a "plain" saison. Just base malt and maybe only one type of hop.
Then another batch of the exact same beer with some spices.
At least then you can compare.

Or if you can make a big batch, split into smaller ones, with one being your control (standard saison).
 
Agreed with everyone else that the spice load is really high. Is the sumac a typo? o_O I love sumac but 50g is my entire spice jar. I agree with @AlexKay that you probably want single digits total with the spices. If you're new to this, and especially if you don't have a ton of cooking experience to know your palate, then I would take the advice here and start slow. Spices are great but they build up VERY fast.

My suggestion would be to look at the spices and start thinking about which ones have similar flavors. Keep one and drop the other. If you don't know why you are adding a spice then leave it out to start. If you're not sure about the flavor then taste a pinch first. It's just a spice. Then you can make a better tincture after you understand them more. After that, start low with the amounts of the spices you want and don't just go off someone else's recipe. Everybody here is brewing to their own palate. Also, if someone includes a single spice in their recipe at a certain amount then it doesn't apply much here since you're planning to use multiple spices. Look through those recipes and consider the overall spice load they use. If anything, you should match your overall spice load to that. Just remember that you can add but you can't remove.

Personally, I think it's fun that you're jumping into the deep end here. If you've never brewed beer and you don't cook much then do yourself a favor and start a little slow, though. I think a split batch or just a plain saison batch, like @Zambezi Special mentioned, is a good idea. There's no problem adding caramel malt to your saison if you want, but you don't know that yet since you haven't brewed one. I personally don't enjoy it. Also, my saisons are pretty lightly hopped and I'm still shocked how much just a different hop can change the flavor. Start getting to know your base beer or you'll just be lost in the wilderness. You won't know which flavors are coming from which ingredients.

Also, cook with those spices too. Spices are what make most foods delicious. Have fun! :mug:
 
The problem is that I've never used any of these spices before and have no idea what I'm doing. Further, I've never even brewed beer. Even worse, I don't even cook and have only walked into my kitchen a handful of times in my life. Hell, I barely even drink and have never had a saison before.
Sounds legit . I see no issues at all . Go for it. :popcorn:
 
That’s a hell of a lot of spices, both in overall and individual quantities in my opinion. I can’t see that being a tasty beer.

Also (again in my opinion), that’s a lot of late hops for a spiced beer. Y

You’re going to end up with a flood of weird flavors and aromas that I can’t see blending together well.
I'm using noble and other older, less IPA oriented, hops to avoid too much of that, in my opinion, horrible IPA fragrance and taste. I'm hoping they impart a subtle profile that compliments the yeast. However, now that you mention it, I'll go ahead and throw the hops in with the tea as well and see how the amounts should be adjusted.
Honestly, for a first beer I would make a "plain" saison. Just base malt and maybe only one type of hop.
Then another batch of the exact same beer with some spices.
At least then you can compare.

Or if you can make a big batch, split into smaller ones, with one being your control (standard saison).
It's all just fun. If it turns out drinkable, that's great. If it doesn't, I won't be crying over spilt milk err beer

Agreed with everyone else that the spice load is really high. Is the sumac a typo? o_O I love sumac but 50g is my entire spice jar. I agree with @AlexKay that you probably want single digits total with the spices. If you're new to this, and especially if you don't have a ton of cooking experience to know your palate, then I would take the advice here and start slow. Spices are great but they build up VERY fast.

My suggestion would be to look at the spices and start thinking about which ones have similar flavors. Keep one and drop the other. If you don't know why you are adding a spice then leave it out to start. If you're not sure about the flavor then taste a pinch first. It's just a spice. Then you can make a better tincture after you understand them more. After that, start low with the amounts of the spices you want and don't just go off someone else's recipe. Everybody here is brewing to their own palate. Also, if someone includes a single spice in their recipe at a certain amount then it doesn't apply much here since you're planning to use multiple spices. Look through those recipes and consider the overall spice load they use. If anything, you should match your overall spice load to that. Just remember that you can add but you can't remove.

Personally, I think it's fun that you're jumping into the deep end here. If you've never brewed beer and you don't cook much then do yourself a favor and start a little slow, though. I think a split batch or just a plain saison batch, like @Zambezi Special mentioned, is a good idea. There's no problem adding caramel malt to your saison if you want, but you don't know that yet since you haven't brewed one. I personally don't enjoy it. Also, my saisons are pretty lightly hopped and I'm still shocked how much just a different hop can change the flavor. Start getting to know your base beer or you'll just be lost in the wilderness. You won't know which flavors are coming from which ingredients.

Also, cook with those spices too. Spices are what make most foods delicious. Have fun! :mug:
That sumac will probably have to be left out. The shop still hasn't shipped and everything else is either already arrived or on the way. I'll take your advice on adding to it piece-meal in the tea. Actually, I already had a realization about the red yeast rice which was pretty shocking.

As for cooking with the spices, that's actually why I bought them all in the first place lol. Lately, I'm being trying to get my wife to cook more Middle Eastern and Southeast Asian dishes. Next thing you know, I'm planning to make a ginger ale, then, as ideas kept spinning around in my head, it's now a beer.


Sounds legit . I see no issues at all . Go for it. :popcorn:

My man! :D
 
Experiment - Spiced Saison (16E)​


Batch Size16 LBoil Size19 L
Boil Time3 hrEfficiency70%
OG1.053 sgFG1.005 sg
ABV6.4%IBU20.8 (Tinseth)
Color8.0 srm (Morey)Estimated calories (per 33 cl)159

Fermentables​


Total grain: 3.750 kg​

NameTypeAmountMashedLateYieldColor
Pale Ale MaltGrain750.000 gYesNo80%2.0 srm
Pale Wheat MaltGrain750.000 gYesNo80%2.4 srm
Pilsen MaltGrain750.000 gYesNo81%2.0 srm
Steamed RiceGrain750.000 g (dry weight)YesNo70%0.0 srm
JaggerySugar500.000 gNoYes100%25.0 srm
Caramel Vienne Malt 20LGrain250.000 gYesNo78%20.0 srm

Hops​

NameAlphaAmountUseTimeFormIBU
Fuggles4.5%5.000 gBoil1.000 hrPellet3.5
Hallertau4.5%5.000 gBoil1.000 hrPellet3.5
Saaz (Czech Republic)4.5%5.000 gBoil1.000 hrPellet3.5
Fuggles4.5%10.000 gBoil15.000 minPellet3.4
Hallertau4.5%10.000 gBoil15.000 minPellet3.4
Saaz (Czech Republic)4.5%10.000 gBoil15.000 minPellet3.4

Misc​

NameTypeUseAmountTime
Black CardamomSpiceWhirlpool500.000 mg15.000 min
CinnamonSpiceWhirlpool3.000 g15.000 min
ClovesSpiceWhirlpool1.000 g15.000 min
SaffronSpicePrimary2.000 g15.000 min
SumacSpiceWhirlpool50.000 g15.000 min
AllspiceSpiceWhirlpool1.000 g15.000 min
LiquoriceSpiceWhirlpool4.000 g15.000 min
Turmeric - FreshSpiceWhirlpool10.000 g15.000 min
Wild Green Ginger- FreshSpiceWhirlpool5.000 g15.000 min
Juniper BerriesSpiceWhirlpool2.000 g15.000 min
Red Yeast RiceSpiceWhirlpool30.000 g15.000 min
RosemarySpiceWhirlpool2.000 g15.000 min

Yeast​

NameTypeFormAmountStage
Belle SaisonAleDry5.00 gPrimary

Mash​

NameTypeAmountTempTarget TempTime
1 - StartInfusion12.000 L---40.000 C20 min
2 - Enzyme ExtractionTemperature------43.000 C30 min
3 - Remove Enzyme BathWort Replacement12.000 L---30.000 C50 min
4 - Grain Softening 1Infusion8.000 L---69.000 C30 min
5 - Grain Softening 2Temperature------100.000 C20 min
6 - Merge and ConvertTemperature------64.000 C20 min
7 - Alpha OnlyTemperature------70.000 C30 min
8 - Mash outTemperature------80.000 C10 min

Instructions​

  1. Steam 750g of rice in 1.2 liters of water and let cool.
  2. Add all grains into a bag.
  3. Bring 12L of water to 40c in 30L pot.
  4. Add grain bag to 30L pot, turn off fire, and hold for 20 minutes
  5. Heat pot to 43c while stirring.
  6. Turn off fire and hold for 30 minutes.
  7. Heat 8L of water to 69c in 10L pot.
  8. Remove and squeeze grain bag from 30L pot and place into 10L pot. Let 30L pot of extract sit.
  9. Let 10L pot sit for 30m.
  10. Raise temperature of 10L pot to 100c while stirring.
  11. Turn off fire and let sit for 20 minutes.
  12. Remove grain bag, reheat 30L pot to 40c, and reheat 10L pot to 100c.
  13. Turn off fire. Add the grain bag and the wort from the 10L pot to the wort in the 30L pot.
  14. Let sit for 20 minutes.
  15. Heat pot to 70c while stirring.
  16. Turn off fire and hold for 30 minutes
  17. Heat pot to 80c while stirring
  18. Turn off fire and hold for 10 minutes
  19. Remove grain bag, squeeze thoroughly, and discard.
  20. Add 5 grams each of Saaz, Hallertau, and Fuggles into spice bag, add to pot, and heat pot to 100c while stirring.
  21. Stir regularly for 1 hour and 30 minutes.
  22. Turn off heat and let cool to 90c while stirring.
  23. Remove spice bag and replace hops with 10 grams each of Saaz, Hallertau, and Fuggles, 30g red yeast rice, 10g fresh turmeric, 5g fresh green ginger, 4 grams dried liquorice root, 3g dried cinnamon, 2g each dried rosemary and juniper berries, 1g each cloves and allspice, and 0.5g of cardamom. Add spice bag back to pot. Add 500g crushed jaggery.
  24. Stir regularly for 30m.
  25. Remove and squeeze spice bag, cover wort with lid, and let cool to 30c.
  26. Pitch Belle Saison yeast into pot and stir.
  27. Split wort into two shallow open fermentation vessels and cover.
  28. Let ferment in the open for two days.
  29. Add both to larger closed fermentation vessel with airlock, add 2g saffron, and let it go till fermentation stops.
  30. Remove airlock and seal vessel completely. Let sit for several months till beer has settled.
  31. Filter into tertiary vessel and add campden tablets.
  32. Let clarify.
  33. Prime and Bottle.
 
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Any specific reason why you don't go for a 1step mash?

The convoluted process of multi step mashing seemed more mysterious and alluring. Every temperature is apparently activating different enzymes and denaturing others in a crazy dance. It just seems more interesting to me.

General Update​

All of the spices and hops have arrived so I decided to play around a bit. After boiling the water and letting it cool for a few minutes, I added a leaf of this and a pinch of that to the cooling liquid (the thermometer and scale still haven't arrived so it was just playing with flavours) and let the concoction sit for thirty minutes before draining off. The flavour was wonderful, very complex and easy to drink. My wife and kids all enjoyed it though the boys thought it was a bit weak and wanted me to increase the concentration of spices. I took some and added it to a water bottle with some jaggery and pitched a pinch of yeast with it. I also placed four strands of saffron in with it.

An important point I left out was that I hadn't added hops to this at all at this point. So, to get an idea of the hops, I threw a pinch of pellets in another pot of just boiled water. The idea was that the myrcene would evaporate at that temperature while leaving the other oils behind and without extracting any bitterness from the alpha acid. How wrong I was! It was horribly bitter and tasted like an IPA. I feel like I can still taste it in my mouth. I wanted spicy, floral, and earthy notes and got pure hell. I boiled down a portion of the liquid to make an extract and added it to some of the spice tea. I thought maybe it would all balance out as the tea was a bit cloying, but it just made the tea incredibly bitter and IPA-like. The bitterness I can work around by adjusting quantities, but that damn IPA taste. I don't know what to do about it at this point.
 
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The convoluted process of multi step mashing seemed more mysterious and alluring. Every temperature is apparently activating different enzymes and denaturing others in a crazy dance. It just seems more interesting to me.
I can understand that. Just know that many brewers still have a hard time hitting their gravity and volume numbers with more simple processes like single infusion. You seem very attentive to details so hopefully that will help you. Don't be surprised if you are pretty far off with gravity, volume, etc the first time. Be prepared to dilute, add more fermentables, or accept that your beer might be off with the alcohol level. The more complicated the process the more fun, but also the more likely that something can go wrong.

...Let ferment in the open for two days.
...Remove airlock and seal vessel completely. Let sit for several months till beer has settled.
You don't really need to ferment Belle Saison in an open vessel. If you are worried about the saison yeast stalling that shouldn't be a problem. Different saison yeasts have issues with stalling but Belle Saison does not. Fermenting in the open won't hurt if you can keep contaminants away, bubt it might be an unnecessary risk. You also don't need to let it settle for several months. I brew with Belle Saison all the time. It does great with an airlock and when I let it sit in primary after fermentation it will settle out well in just a couple weeks. After a month or two at most I don't think it could settle much further. If you want it pretty clear I would go 3-4 weeks.

...The bitterness I can work around by adjusting quantities, but that damn IPA taste. I don't know what to do about it at this point.
First, I enjoy the enthusiasm around the spices and the hops. I love that you tested them and shared with your family and that you all are enjoying the process. If you like a large number of the spices and zero hops and that makes you happy and interested then that's what you should do. That's your beer. Everybody's journey is different.

For the hops specifically, I don't think you can equate hops that have been boiled for 15 to 60 mins directly to ones that were steeped in hot water. If you didn't boil at all while they were in there then just adding the room temperature hops is going to drop the water temperature down some from boiling. There's a reason we boil hops for a little while in "non-hoppy" styles. I enjoy IPAs but I also really enjoy a wide variety of beers that are not hoppy at all, and I can definitely tell the difference. You should probably add some hops at the 60 minute mark for bitterness. A 15 minute addition is not going to give you what I would define as an IPA flavor, although maybe you are more sensitive to these flavors. If you are worried then I would move the 15 minute additions back to 30 minutes in the schedule. Just keep in mind that will increase the bitterness you extract from those so you might want to adjust the amounts of the 60 minute hops to compensate. If you're really worried then just keep the 60 min addition and adjust accordingly. I'm not sure if you checked but you might also want to be sure your hops all have a 4.5% AA content. Those values can vary widely, so if the AA is different for any then check and adjust so you don't end up way over or under for the IBU.

Ultimately, you will have to take a leap and brew it. There is a risk it will be too heavy with spices or too hoppy for you. It is an experiment, though. My wife and I are both scientifically trained and we like to say you have to do the experiment to learn how to do the experiment. You'll never know until you brew it. Just consider it a learning experience if you don't enjoy it. Analyze the result, adjust, and make it better next time.

Good luck with the brewing AND cooking :mug:
 
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Last edited:
etc etc and twelve hours post pitch (pitched at 41c)
Nice! That krausen looks good and healthy. 41C is hotter than you were planning to pitch, right? That's warmer than I've ever pitched Belle by a long shot. You'll have to let us know how that goes. I'm curious about any last minute tweaks you made to the recipe. Did you keep that last spice breakdown and did you remove or reduce any of the hops?

I'm interested to see how this works out and excited for your first brew!
 
Frithy’s Spiced Saison (16E)
Halaba

Approximate Targets​

Batch Size​
16L​
Boil Size​
19L​
Boil Time​
2 hr​
Efficiency​
70%​
OG​
1.049 sg​
FG​
1.005 sg​
ABV​
5.8%​
IBU​
18.9​
Color​
8.6​
Calories in 12oz​
145​

Fermentables​

Name​
Type​
Amount​
Mashed​
Late​
Yield​
Color​
Pale Ale Malt​
Grain​
600g​
Yes​
No​
80%​
2.0 srm​
Pale Wheat Malt​
Grain​
600g​
Yes​
No​
80%​
2.4 srm​
Pilsen Malt​
Grain​
600g​
Yes​
No​
81%​
2.0 srm​
Steamed Rice​
Grain​
600g​
Yes​
No​
70%​
0.0 srm​
Jaggery​
Sugar​
600g​
No​
Yes​
100%​
25.0 srm​
Caramel Vienne Malt 20L​
Grain​
250.000 g​
Yes​
No​
78%​
20.0 srm​

Hops​

Name​
Alpha​
Amount​
Use​
Time​
Form​
IBU​
Fuggles​
4.5%​
8g​
Boil​
2hr​
Pellet​
6.3​
Hallertau​
4.5%​
8g​
Boil​
2hr​
Pellet​
6.3​
Saaz (Czech Republic)​
4.5%​
8g​
Boil​
2hr​
Pellet​
6.3​

Misc​

Name​
Type​
Use​
Amount​
Time​
Black Cardamom​
Spice​
Boil​
1g​
15.000 min​
Chinese Cardamom​
Spice​
Boil​
1g​
15.000 min​
Cloves​
Spice​
Boil​
2g​
15.000 min​
Peppermint​
Spice​
Boil​
10g​
15.000 min​
Kaffir Lime Leaf​
Spice​
Boil​
5g​
15.000 min​
Rosemary​
Spice​
Boil​
5g​
15.000 min​
White Pepper​
Spice​
Boil​
2g​
15.000 min​
Lemon Grass​
Spice​
Boil​
2g​
15.000 min​
Mustard Seed​
Spice​
Boil​
2g​
15.000 min​
Juniper Berries​
Spice​
Boil​
5g​
15.000 min​
Dried Kumquat​
Spice​
Boil​
5g​
15.000 min​
Liquorice Root​
Spice​
Boil​
5g​
15.000 min​
Fresh Wet Turmeric​
Spice​
Boil​
40g​
15.000 min​
Wild Ginger​
Spice​
Boil​
25g​
15.000 min​

Yeast​

Name​
Type​
Form​
Amount​
Stage​
Belle Saison​
Ale​
Dry​
3g​
Primary​
Voss Kveik​
Ale​
Dry​
3g​
Primary​

Mash​

Name​
Type​
Amount​
Temp​
Target Temp​
Time​
1 - Start​
Infusion​
6L​
40.000 C​
40.000 C​
10 min​
2 - Enzyme Extraction​
Temperature​
---​
---​
43.000 C​
30 min​
3 - Decoction​
Decoction​
6L​
---​
30.000 C​
50 min​
4 - Grain Softening 1​
Infusion​
13L​
69.000 C​
69.000 C​
30 min​
5 - Grain Softening 2​
Temperature​
---​
---​
100.000 C​
20 min​
6 - Merge and Convert​
Temperature​
---​
---​
64.000 C​
20 min​
7 - Alpha Only​
Temperature​
---​
---​
70.000 C​
30 min​
8 - Mash out​
Temperature​
---​
---​
80.000 C​
10 min​

Instructions​

  1. Steam 600g of rice in 1 liter of water and let cool.
  2. Add all grains into a bag.
  3. Bring 6L of water to 40c in pot A.
  4. Add grain bag to pot A, turn off fire, and hold for 20 minutes
  5. Heat pot A to 43c while stirring.
  6. Turn off fire and hold for 30 minutes.
  7. Heat 13L of water to 69c in pot B.
  8. Remove and squeeze grain bag from pot A and place into pot B. Let pot A of extract sit.
  9. Let pot B sit for 30m.
  10. Raise temperature of pot B to 100c while stirring.
  11. Turn off fire and let sit for 20 minutes.
  12. Remove grain bag from pot B and pressure cook with some wort for 30 minutes at 125c to debitter and further liquefy grains.
  13. While pressure cooking grain bag, reheat pot A to 40c, and reheat pot B to 80c.
  14. Turn off fire. Mix the separate worts back together into pot A and place grain bag with wort.
  15. Let sit for twenty minutes
  16. Heat pot A to 70c while stirring.
  17. Turn off fire and hold for 30 minutes
  18. Heat pot A to 80c while stirring
  19. Turn off fire.
  20. Leave overnight and come back the next day.
  21. Remove grain bag, squeeze thoroughly, and discard.
  22. Add all hops into spice bag, add to pot A with wort, and heat pot to 100c while stirring.
  23. Stir regularly for 2 hours.
  24. Remove 4 liters of boiling wort at a time and cook in pressure cooker for 15 minutes.
  25. Take pressure cooked wort and add to pot B to continue boil.
  26. Continue doing this till all of the wort has moved from pot A to pot B.
  27. Turn off heat, discard hop bag, top up with water, and let cool to 90c while stirring.
  28. Add spices and stir regularly for 30m.
  29. Remove and squeeze spice bag, cover wort with lid, and let cool to 41c.
  30. Pitch yeast into pot and stir.
  31. Split wort into two shallow open fermentation vessels and cover.
  32. Let ferment in the open for a day and a half
  33. Add both to larger closed fermentation vessel with airlock and let it go till fermentation stops.
  34. Remove airlock and seal vessel completely. Let sit for several months till beer has settled.
  35. Filter into tertiary vessel and add campden tablets.
  36. Add 4 grams of saffron and let clarify.
  37. Prime and Bottle.
A bit convoluted haha.

Some reckoning:
I put the grains through the pressure cooker because I thought it'd help me get more out of them. Well, after they came out, they lost that sharp grain tannin bite and had a mellower taste and smell. So, later on, I put the hopped wort through the pressure cooker in order to similarly mellow the hop taste. I threw everything into the fermentor, hot and cold trub, as I figured it'd give the yeast some nutrients and such. I pitched at 41c and mixed Belle and Kveik as I wanted the yeast to start quickly to prevent spilage microbes and also to increase esters. The point of the two day open fermentation was also to increase ester production. I tossed the krausen and gunk from the open ferment into the secondary with the wort as I figured all of those open ferment esters would probably be in the krausen considering it was the only part actually exposed to oxygen.

I'm playing with ideas for my next batch now. I'll post updates here as this one progresses.
 
Thanks for sharing! The kveik explains the quick start and that fluffier krausen then. That krausen seemed way bigger and rockier than I've ever seen with a Belle Saison ferment before. This is the most interesting beer I've seen in a while! I'm glad you trimmed down the spices but also glad you kept it at a level that seems to work for you.

I really hope it works out for you and I really wish I was able to try it. Maybe if I hear good things then I'll do a small batch of something similar :) I'm intrigued!

I'm playing with ideas for my next batch now. I'll post updates here as this one progresses.
I don't think it would work with all of your ingredients here, but as I'm reading through your recipe the idea of pandan leaves came to mind. Just a thought, but I think that could be pretty interesting to try. I bet as you start cooking with some of those spices you'll definitely get more ideas.

Looking forward to the updates
 
Thanks for sharing! The kveik explains the quick start and that fluffier krausen then. That krausen seemed way bigger and rockier than I've ever seen with a Belle Saison ferment before. This is the most interesting beer I've seen in a while! I'm glad you trimmed down the spices but also glad you kept it at a level that seems to work for you.

I really hope it works out for you and I really wish I was able to try it. Maybe if I hear good things then I'll do a small batch of something similar :) I'm intrigued!


I don't think it would work with all of your ingredients here, but as I'm reading through your recipe the idea of pandan leaves came to mind. Just a thought, but I think that could be pretty interesting to try. I bet as you start cooking with some of those spices you'll definitely get more ideas.

Looking forward to the updates


Thanks, Elias.

So, I sealed up the vessel today and will leave it to sit in a closet for a few months. Before sealing, I poured a little sample:


It tastes like a witbier on crack. I can't taste any particular spice coming through, just a general intense witbierness. The alcohol seems a bit more than I expected and the beer has a hoppy bitterness and a slight tartness that are a bit much. Hopefully, with time, all these will blend and mild out to create a nice tasting beverage. I'll report back when I bottle.
 
It tastes like a witbier on crack. I can't taste any particular spice coming through, just a general intense witbierness. The alcohol seems a bit more than I expected and the beer has a hoppy bitterness and a slight tartness that are a bit much. Hopefully, with time, all these will blend and mild out to create a nice tasting beverage.
Yeah, I'm not too surprised by that first part although "witbier on crack" is a fantastic way to phrase it 😂

I don't know if I mentioned it earlier but I was thinking that you're probably also going to get some bittering effects from some of these spices too. I wouldn't think 18 IBU should be too much but we'll have to wait and see how the beer pulls together. Usually it does pull together some and improve with time but we're way out in the wilderness here so who knows for sure.

Again, very intrigued to see what happens. Thanks for the update!
 
So, it's been sealed for a bit, but still needs burped thrice daily. My boys took the photos as I'm out of town. It's looking pretty sexy IMO.
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It's looking pretty sexy IMO.
Ha! I see you've skipped the "talking to your yeast politely" stage and immediately moved to a different level of your relationship 😂 Really, you hardly seem like this is your first time around a beer. It's fun to watch your brain work, and I appreciate all the visuals.

The beers do look pretty great
 
As the detritus has dropped out, the beer is staring to clear and darken. mhhmmm. Good thing I'm not there or I doubt I could wait anymore.

An interesting thing is that it still has a foamy head and needs burped once a day. I guess the residual dextrins, starches, and sundry other crap are quite slow to break down. Is this a result of leaving in the cold and hot breaks? This man knoweth not.
 

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As the detritus has dropped out, the beer is staring to clear and darken. mhhmmm. Good thing I'm not there or I doubt I could wait anymore.
Are you still planning to let it sit for several months? I'm still not totally sure of your reasoning for that long of aging. I've never done something like this before, though, so maybe there's something I'm missing. Otherwise, once it starts to clear I'd say you're more than fine bottling. If the fermentation has stopped, of course.

An interesting thing is that it still has a foamy head and needs burped once a day. I guess the residual dextrins, starches, and sundry other crap are quite slow to break down. Is this a result of leaving in the cold and hot breaks? This man knoweth not.
Yeah, I'm not too sure about this either. The process and ingredients are too unknown for me to guess with much confidence. Belle saison is STA-1 positive, though. Also called disastaticus if that's more familiar to you. It can break down any long chain starches over time and keep fermenting. I don't know about the foam on the top but if it is clearing then the yeast are also settling out. There shouldn't be too much fermentation left. Any idea of the gravity? Are your boys able to pull a small sample when they burp it next time? Otherwise, I guess let it sit for a while longer to see if the disastaticus finishes doing its thing.

As far as I know this wouldn't come from residual break material. That should be mostly protein. If anything I'd say that should probably help yeast health and help avoid a lingering fermentation.

Thanks, again, for the update! This is fun to see :mug:
 
You already oxidised it, that's not good. Too much headspace in the pet bottle plus the transfer probably wasn't oxygen free as well. You should have left it in the original fermenter till fermentation is over and then bottling. Aging can be done in the bottle, if necessary. However, I don't see a reason for extended aging here.
 
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