Speidel Braumeister (brewmaster)

[SanMarzano]

Thanks I guess I should have rephrased my questions. As for concentrated brew....I thought they mentioned that because there was not enough room to do a full boil. but it looks like there is enough room to do a full boil on the 20l system. I assume its at least 9G in the boil kettle? Not sure why they said that in the video. As for Grain ratio I always do the 1.25 to 1 lb, I didn't know if this system required a much higher ratio to allow the upwards flow......Meaning always fill to this line.

PS a little about me - I have always been a lurker on here with very few posts. I have about 20 AG batches under my belt (batch Sparge method) but have been on hiadus the last 8 months due to work and a new home build. But I am very excited as my new home has a separate detached garage which will be my BrewShed!!!!!!Looking for a new way to AG and I love the look of the system

 

[Sudz]

I must admit his point has me curious also. It appears the system requires one place a minimum of water in the pot to satisfy the flow mechanics. I think I understand the pipe must overflow sufficiently enough to fill the pot to the pump pick up point. So you must add enough water to fill the pipe and part of the pot.

Can anyone tell me how much water it takes to overflow the pipe in a 20L system?

 

[makomachine]

Thanks I guess I should have rephrased my questions. As for concentrated brew....I thought they mentioned that because there was not enough room to do a full boil. but it looks like there is enough room to do a full boil on the 20l system. I assume its at least 9G in the boil kettle? Not sure why they said that in the video. As for Grain ratio I always do the 1.25 to 1 lb, I didn't know if this system required a much higher ratio to allow the upwards flow......Meaning always fill to this line.

PS a little about me - I have always been a lurker on here with very few posts. I have about 20 AG batches under my belt (batch Sparge method) but have been on hiadus the last 8 months due to work and a new home build. But I am very excited as my new home has a separate detached garage which will be my BrewShed!!!!!!Looking for a new way to AG and I love the look of the system

I've experimented with water to grain ratios and have never personally noticed a substantial difference in my beers going from 1 to 3 per 1lb. My Citra Pale Ale was right at a 2 to 1 ratio and turned out fine. I believe I've read somewhere that this is more critical when you approach closer to a 4 to 1 ratio, but may be wrong there - and probably comes down to water/mash PH.

What I can tell you is that this machine can/does support full volume boils. I've got roughly 7 to 7.25 in the kettle at start of boils for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[makomachine]

I must admit his point has me curious also. It appears the system requires one place a minimum of water in the pot to satisfy the flow mechanics. I think I understand the pipe must overflow sufficiently enough to fill the pot to the pump pick up point. So you must add enough water to fill the pipe and part of the pot.

Can anyone tell me how much water it takes to overflow the pipe in a 20L system?

That's not a fixed number as it must be offset by how much grain you have displacing the water. You also need to cover your elements completely - not just run to the pickup point.

 

[Sudz]

That's not a fixed number as it must be offset by how much grain you have displacing the water. You also need to cover your elements completely - not just run to the pickup point.

Good point on the elements. I guess what I'm asking is what is the minimum amount of water you can brew with on the BM?

From what I read 9 gallons is an acceptable volume for the BM. 9 gallons should be adequate for a 20lb grain bill and you should be able to get a good 5 gallons in the fermenter without difficulty. But what if the bill is 8 lbs? You wouldn't want to brew with 9 gallons so how far can you reduce the volume and still satisfy the BM mechanism?

 

[Yambor44]

Good point on the elements. I guess what I'm asking is what is the minimum amount of water you can brew with on the BM?

From what I read 9 gallons is an acceptable volume for the BM. 9 gallons should be adequate for a 20lb grain bill and you should be able to get a good 5 gallons in the fermenter without difficulty. But what if the bill is 8 lbs? You wouldn't want to brew with 9 gallons so how far can you reduce the volume and still satisfy the BM mechanism?

I don't have the 20L but I would say the short answer is no. I do not believe 3 gallons of water would be adequate (at a ratio of 1.5qt/pound of grain). The grain is going to absorb 1 gallon leaving only 2. Therefore the pumps would indeed run dry before the cycle of pumping up thru the grain and down to the bottom of the kettle completes itself. Just my theory YMMV.

Just out of curiosity, why the concern with making such a small grain bill?

 

[Sudz]

I don't have the 20L but I would say the short answer is no. I do not believe 3 gallons of water would be adequate (at a ratio of 1.5qt/pound of grain). The grain is going to absorb 1 gallon leaving only 2. Therefore the pumps would indeed run dry before the cycle of pumping up thru the grain and down to the bottom of the kettle completes itself. Just my theory YMMV.

Just out of curiosity, why the concern with making such a small grain bill?

I understand 3 gallons wouldn't work. I also understand that the traditional ratios are not necessary applicable the BM brewing. I haven't made any but there are light brews out there with 8 lb grain bills.

My question stems aroung the BM system. Simply put, how much water does it (20L) require for circulation? Can someone with a 20L tell me?

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Simply put, how much water does it (20L) require for circulation? Can someone with a 20L tell me?

As per post #874, "That's not a fixed number as it must be offset by how much grain you have displacing the water. "

 

[Sudz]

I appreciate everyones patience, but I'm still struggling with how one actually uses this thing.

For example, if you want to make a 5 gallon brew and there's 10 lb of grain in the bill. If you go with a 1.25 ratio then you would need to include 12.5 qts of water for the mash, or 3+ gallons. I'm fairly certain the BM will not function with 3+ gallons of water. I assume you add enough water at the start to make up for grain losses, pot losses, and boil losses. Roughly 1.2 gal for grain loss, 1 gal for pot loss?, 1.2 gal for boil loss, or 3.4 gal total.

If I add this to the start we're talking about 6.5-7.0 gallons in the system with 10 lbs of grain to yield 5 gallons of wort.

I assume the 20L BM will circulate with this amount of water and 10 lbs of grain? Is this a valid assumption?

At 7 gallons in the system, it's interesting to note actual mashing will occur at a ratio of 2.8 which I guess is not an issue as stated by BIAB guys and the BM crowd.

If the ratio is no longer a key factor, then all one needs to know is how much water to add when you brew ..as long as the grain bill is covered. I assume in practice you just fill the thing to some mark on the center post and go for it???

Have I got it?

 

[makomachine]

If the ratio is no longer a key factor, then all one needs to know is how much water to add when you brew ..as long as the grain bill is covered. I assume in practice you just fill the thing to some mark on the center post and go for it???

Have I got it?

You are really close.

You basically need to figure out how much to add to account for grain loss, either via the sparge which most perform, or just topping off prior to boil. On the 20L version, I add 6 gallons to start my mash as I use bottled spring water - and then sparge with 1.25 to 1.75 gallons based on the amount of grain in my mash. After a 90 minute boil, I have 5.25 gallons for the fermenter. I believe Chris says one liter per kg of malt in the bill is what he uses, which seems right to me based on my experience and how I come out in old school gallon measurements.

 

[Sudz]

Thanks Makomachine!

I can now follow the thread with a reasonable level of understanding about this brew process. The more I read, the more I'm favorably impressed!

Cheers...

 

[makomachine]

Thanks Makomachine!

I can now follow the thread with a reasonable level of understanding about this brew process. The more I read, the more I'm favorably impressed!

Cheers...

No worries. It's about as easy as you could make all grain with a high degree of control in your mash temps, IMO. Haven't got enough time with it yet to give a final opinion on it, but I'd buy it again in a heartbeat given my brewing sessions to date.

 

[Kimosabe]

I understand 3 gallons wouldn't work. I also understand that the traditional ratios are not necessary applicable the BM brewing. I haven't made any but there are light brews out there with 8 lb grain bills.

My question stems aroung the BM system. Simply put, how much water does it (20L) require for circulation? Can someone with a 20L tell me?

What you have to realise is that reducing the amount of water will put extra strain on the the pump. When the pump starts, the water level inside the malt pipe will rise. Outside the maltpipe the water level will fall. A difference in pressure will build up directly proportional to the difference in height of the two fluid levels. To maintain the wort circulation the pump has to overcome both the resistance of the grain bed and the pressure difference as a result of the difference in fluid levels inside and outside the maltpipe. Therefore reducing the amount of water will slow down the circulation. I recently experienced adding more than the advised 23 liters helped me to improve circulation when i'm using a high grain bill. I suspect reducing the amount of water will decrease the efficiency and therefore will result in a lower instead of a a higher end gravity.

Thijs

 

[Yambor44]

Thanks Makomachine!

I can now follow the thread with a reasonable level of understanding about this brew process. The more I read, the more I'm favorably impressed!

Cheers...

How's your build coming along? Aren't you trying to build a similar unit?

 

[Sudz]

How's your build coming along? Aren't you trying to build a similar unit?

Very good... Yes I am ...sorta.

I was actually building a system to emulate BIAB* (brew in a "bucket") when I first became aware of the BM. It's rather uncanny how similar my "FrankenMeister" is to the BM.

Basically I've got a 15 gal boil pot which will be the basis for the system. I have an older 8 gal pot which will serve the function of the grain pipe. It retains it's bottom and sets about 1 1/2 off the floor of the boil pot.

I have made two sieve plates. One fits tightly in the bottom of the 8 gal pot (mash pot) about 2 " from the pot's bottom. The other sieve plate fits about 2" below the rim of this mash pot.

Circulation leverages a March pump. I pull water from the boil pot via the existing drain valve. This gets pumped to a 1/2 copper manifold which is actually mounted to the outside of the mash pot. The delivery enters the mash pot below the lower sieve plate. Flow at this point is the same as a BM. The overflow from the mash pot drops back into the boil pot and is continuously recirculated.

One difference I have is the solid bottom mash pot. To drain the mash pot when raised, I have incorporated a small 3/8" hole in the bottom of the pot. This should restrict the flow to promote grain bed optimal settling similar to standard vorlauf/fly sparging practices. This hole is sealed by a simple flap valve when the pot is setting on the bottom of the boil pot. This valve opens as the pot is lifted for draining.

Heat is provided by a gas fired system. This system uses a large banjo burner which has been the basis of my boil pot during prior use. I have modified the gas delivery to permit temp control via a PID controller and valve. This system now includes a pilot light to facilitate the on/off of the main gas flow. My initial thermocouple is mounted to sense the output flow temp immediately after the pump.

I may eventually convert to electrical heating if this thing proves useful. I'm basically utilizing my existing system by adding some features to things I already have. I had no idea where this was going until a came across the BM. That was exciting for me since it appears to justify my game plan.

This thread has been an excellent source of info and everyone's participation greatly appreciated.

Construction is almost complete. I'll probably start playing with the circulation and heat control this weekend. I'm probably a couple of weeks from brewing pending start up surprises... there are always some.

The reason I was questioning the capacities of the BM was to get some understanding of the volumes internal to the BM 20L system. In looking at my system I will have significantly more volume capability than what I perceive the 20L BM has. This does make for a tricky design decision regarding the max capacity of my mash pot. I will most likely be cutting a couple of large overflow ports in the side of the pot to limit this capacity. This will be necessary because the system may hold too much water for a 5-6gal grain bill if not limited. I'll have to play with the mash pot volume to determine what's best for this system.

That's it for the moment... Cheers...

 

[DeGarre]

I just aim for 20L into the FV and start with 24L + 4L for sparging - these are always fixed numbers and I adjust the amount of grain as per BeerSmith. Last time target OG was 1.061 and I hit 1.06 so I am getting very close. Simple. And why would I want half amount of beer, say 10L, if I can get 20L? My newest brew is always the best I've brewed so far so I want to max out on the quantity...

 

[Sudz]

I just aim for 20L into the FV and start with 24L + 4L for sparging - these are always fixed numbers and I adjust the amount of grain as per BeerSmith.

This is what I had in mind.

It appeared to me the system more or less dictates the water required and the grain remains as the principal variant. Since the liquor/grist ratio is not fixed, this makes things really simple. Stronger brew, just add more grain....

Cool!

 

[Yambor44]

This is what I had in mind.

It appeared to me the system more or less dictates the water required and the grain remains as the principal variant. Since the liquor/grist ratio is not fixed, this makes things really simple. Stronger brew, just add more grain....

Cool!

Exactly!

 

[makomachine]

So I'm at 1019 today on the Altbier and bumped it up to 68F to finish out. Impressions from the hydrometer sample is I did pick up a little diacytl fermenting cool, so the rest was in order and should clean that up. Beyond that it appears to be going well.

I'm debating my next brew but thinking of a Stone IPA clone, Surly Furious Clone, or Vanilla Porter. My Pliny Clone is about gone so leaning towards an IPA. Anyone have a good recipe for the Furious? And, more importantly, can I get the hops??

 

[DeGarre]

Started brewing today. Disaster!

Wort was shooting out of the malt pipe, same thing that happened to Yambor. had to abort and clean up, will try tomorrow again. My 7th brew and never had this happen before...but I did do 2 things differently from before.

1. Grain bill was smaller. 3.25kg ie 7.2 lb. Same amount of water 24L ie 6.3 gal.

2. I usually attach the filter mesh to the top metal sieve. This time I also attached the bottom one to the bottom metal grill/sieve so it was really tight and wouldn't let any grain off.

I think #2 was the problem. I reckon the bottom one has to live a bit, give way when the pump is pushing out from the bottom.

Think this was your problem, Yambor?


EDIT: Will brew today, crushing the grain as I write. I couldn't sleep tonight...

 

[Yambor44]

Started brewing today. Disaster!

Wort was shooting out of the malt pipe, same thing that happened to Yambor. had to abort and clean up, will try tomorrow again. My 7th brew and never had this happen before...but I did do 2 things differently from before.

1. Grain bill was smaller. 3.25kg ie 7.2 lb. Same amount of water 24L ie 6.3 gal.

2. I usually attach the filter mesh to the top metal sieve. This time I also attached the bottom one to the bottom metal grill/sieve so it was really tight and wouldn't let any grain off.

I think #2 was the problem. I reckon the bottom one has to live a bit, give way when the pump is pushing out from the bottom.

Think this was your problem, Yambor?

EDIT: Will brew today, crushing the grain as I write. I couldn't sleep tonight...

I "think" mine may have been my crush was too fine. I increased my gap some and my efficiency dropped to 67%. not too bad, but I tightened it back to 1.00mm or .039" which is factory I think. I will brew a 5 gallon batch thus weekend for a YouTube experiment I'm helping with. Not sure if that will determine anything though. I wonder what the actual cause may be as I brewed 4-6 batches with the same crush and no problem. If you go back to that video I made, a fellow experienced BM posted some thoughts on what it might be.

As far as your filtering, are you saying you put two filters on the bottom sieve? If so, did that leave zero on the top?

Rob

 

[DeGarre]

...

As far as your filtering, are you saying you put two filters on the bottom sieve? If so, did that leave zero on the top?

Rob

No, one on the bottom and one on top, I just attched the filter on the bottom to the sieve, first time I ever did that and I had a geysir on my hands.

Mashing now and all looking good...:rockin:

 

[Yambor44]

So you put the filter on the bottom of the bottom sieve. No...I wouldn't do that.

 

[DeGarre]

So you put the filter on the bottom of the bottom sieve. No...I wouldn't do that.

No no, right way around, first the metal sieve, then filter (only difference here was I tied them together)
Then malt in, then metal filter and sieve (I have usually tied these together except first 2 brews).

What I am thinking, on the bottow, perhaps the filter needs to have some leeway above the sieve?

 

[Yambor44]

Ahhhh. Mine are sewn on top and bottom and I have one brew with the bottom done and one brew with both done. No problem on either one. But then again as mentioned before I didn't have a shooting wort problem the first 4-6 brews either then bam.

 

[DeGarre]

I had absolutely no problems on the 2nd try today, I even had the lid on most of the time, just slightly open every now and then and the boil obv. was more of a vigorous rolling kind instead of a limp one...screw vegetable/celery soup taste, looks like my hopped wort was clear for the first time!

I don't know why the wort shot out but I won't be sewing my bottom filter on the sieve that's for sure.

I brewed a mild brown ale, overshot OG slightly (1.036 vs 1.035), 24 L to start with, 4 for sparge, end of the mash end up with 24L, and 20L into the FV, seems to work pretty well every time.

Looking forward to your brewing video, Rob.

 

[makomachine]

1036... 1035... That is spot on in my book! Glad it worked out for you today! I may be shooting a vid of my brew day this coming weekend if all goes well. On deck: Vanilla Porter!

I'm thinking I'm going to purchase the copper hood down the road as I half covered my pot this past weekend on my Altbier and seemed to get a better hot break. Too early to call, but if that proves to be true, might warrant a shiny copper bling addition!

 

[Yambor44]

I had absolutely no problems on the 2nd try today, I even had the lid on most of the time, just slightly open every now and then and the boil obv. was more of a vigorous rolling kind instead of a limp one...screw vegetable/celery soup taste, looks like my hopped wort was clear for the first time!

I don't know why the wort shot out but I won't be sewing my bottom filter on the sieve that's for sure.

I brewed a mild brown ale, overshot OG slightly (1.036 vs 1.035), 24 L to start with, 4 for sparge, end of the mash end up with 24L, and 20L into the FV, seems to work pretty well every time.

Looking forward to your brewing video, Rob.

Never say never.....

 

[Yambor44]

I just saw this video by MoreBeer (B3). It is the same video on the Speidel site but in ENGLISH.

 

[makomachine]

Well, I'm mid-mash on the porter and have a periodic fountain myself today. Same LHBS crush, with obviously a different grain bill. It only happens every now and then and I'm keeping the lid on it today. I've also got yet another grain in the pump making some noise as well - still working fine but rattling like crazy.

Chris- are you still using your whirlpool mod and is it working OK? Wondering if a more indirect flow from the pump might not help.

Rob - same location as yours, meaning on the edge of the malt pipe.

I'm also contemplating a screen mod to help keep the grain in the pipe when it gets past the edge of the plates on pump breaks. Need to find some stainless screen in small sheets and will document my idea with pictures once I get the materials.