Speakers and stereo equipment

[GilaMinumBeer]

The key to a powered subwoofer is room placement. And by that I mean you want to either take advantage of, or counteract, modal response of the room and boundary gain. Both of which can take clean sounding bass and make it either boomy and over powering or muddy and lifeless.

A properly placed sub, adjusted to the right level, should not be "present". It should be seamless with the rest of the system to the point that the only way you'd tell if it was missing is if you turned it off.


Got my system wired and running again. Gawd how I've missed having music in the house. Movies are more interesting. And video games take on a new depth of immersion.

 

[user 125772]

JBL forever!

 

[user 125772]

One initial question was about bi amping the speakers. He was not impressed and asked how much it would cost. Since it is an older cheaper amp in question he thought it wouldn't hurt and would add some sound quality. He mentioned he had a new parasound amp and that they were awesome etc etc. He offered to send it to me and if I didnt like it return it no questions asked. The price was amazing but I still am just not at a good place to lay down over 1k (cheap in hifi land) on another amp. That sent me looking into what more power would do, bi amping, amp quality, abx testing and more. Man what a journey and I am still confused about bi amping. Does biamping with two 120 watt amps double power? I think I have come to understand that it still is only 120 to each speaker, so only gain some headspace.

Hey @applescrap
Just wanted to reach out about Bi-Amp. Throughout the years, I've owned 4 different sounds systems that have been bi-amped, every one of them was far superior to to anything else available in the same price range (IMO). Just incredible clarity and definition.

Generally speaking , the bi-amp system enables the drivers to be driven with much cleaner, and higher levels of power. Case in point is the JBL LSR-28P ...each 8" woofer driven with a 250W LF amp, and the 1" dome tweeter driven with a 120W HF amp.
Tons of headroom there, virtually eliminating chances of clipping & distortion. I'm not sure if they're equivalent to a conventional amp and speakers driven with a 370W/channel amp, but I can tell you, they play extremely loud and clear, and well defined.

If you ever get a chance to listen to some of the LSR studio monitors from JBL, don't pass it up.

 

[arturo7]

The element in bi-amping that is most overlooked is which is probably the most important is the quality of the crossover. The crossover is the piece of hardware that divides the signal by frequency. Highs go one way, lows go another.

Every time you add something to the signal chain you risk degrading sound quality. A subwoofer with a poor quality crossover might add some low end, but it will also degrade the sound of your whole system.

 

[MaxStout]

The element in bi-amping that is most overlooked is which is probably the most important is the quality of the crossover. The crossover is the piece of hardware that divides the signal by frequency. Highs go one way, lows go another.

Every time you add something to the signal chain you risk degrading sound quality. A subwoofer with a poor quality crossover might add some low end, but it will also degrade the sound of your whole system.

Yep, the crossover network is critical. I don't use active (powered) crossovers, just passive. The components are key--choosing air-core inductors over iron-core, and polypropylene caps over NP electrolytics drives up the price, but the sound quality is far better.

Choosing the crossover frequency depends primarily on the tuning characteristics (Q) of the speaker drivers, and the impedances. Design the crossover to allow plenty of overlap in freq., about 1 octave above and below. For example, if the crossover freq. is 80 Hz, the freq. response of the low-pass (to the sub) would not roll off until around 160 Hz, and the high-pass (to the sats) would not roll off until below 40 Hz. This overlap will minimize the "notch" in the overall frequency response of the system. This principle also applies to internal crossover networks for 2-way and 3-way loudspeakers.

If you buy an off-the-shelf crossover for bi-amping, you're stuck with what's inside. With DIY you can dial it in much better and choose better components. Kind of like home brewing.

There are some online crossover design programs that probably work well, though I've never tried any. Years ago, when I was was building loudspeakers I used LEAP software. The math gets a little crazy, so good crossover design software makes it fairly straightforward.

A good reference on loudspeaker and crossover design is Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, by Vance Dickason.

 

[applescrap]

Wow, so much good stuff here. Maxstout what a cool site. I mean really, almost mad for not fore warning me that it was amazeballs and I would likely want to build some speakers. how does this gear sound, I suspect good. Makes me want to build a sweet setup. Looks like around 300 would potentially replace external tweeter on 802s at low end. Assuming fostek sounds as good as the bw, I assume its close, idk though. I couldnt afford right now with daycare and all to do to much and I have been lucky on used scene. It makes me wonder though how expensive it would be to out do commercial speakers. I like the matrix bw cabinetry and seems a good place to start. A grid of interlocking slats inside with holes drilled in them and filled with foam.

So glad you got up and running Gilaminum. No time for bass talk now but bi amping seems a great idea. I have a 205 w parasound and 120 rotel that I could do similar bi amping with. And the parasound amp has gain adjust so I guess I could match level. I read that you shouldnt mix amps for biamping so havent tried it. Sounds like it works well.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

So glad you got up and running Gilaminum. No time for bass talk now but bi amping seems a great idea. I have a 205 w parasound and 120 rotel that I could do similar bi amping with. And the parasound amp has gain adjust so I guess I could match level. I read that you shouldnt mix amps for biamping so havent tried it. Sounds like it works well.

I am fortunate that I have a receiver with sufficient amp headspace to bi-amp using just the speaker A & B terminals. Currently running my B&W DM604 series 2's bi-amped this way and the sound is clean. Power draw is insane though. Get a bit crazy and have it up too load and it nearly trips the house circuits, lights dimming with the bass beats.

 

[30_Ounce]

I too have the disease! Been an audiophile since the 80's. I started with Acoustat speakers then Martin Logan CLS's with Entech subs and now my current setup B&W Nautilus 805 Signatures, Velodyne 15" sub, Aragon 4004, Audio Research pre, Toshiba DVD Audio player. Monster Power conditioner.

 

[MaxStout]

Wow, so much good stuff here. Maxstout what a cool site. I mean really, almost mad for not fore warning me that it was amazeballs and I would likely want to build some speakers. how does this gear sound, I suspect good. Makes me want to build a sweet setup. Looks like around 300 would potentially replace external tweeter on 802s at low end. Assuming fostek sounds as good as the bw, I assume its close, idk though. I couldnt afford right now with daycare and all to do to much and I have been lucky on used scene. It makes me wonder though how expensive it would be to out do commercial speakers. I like the matrix bw cabinetry and seems a good place to start. A grid of interlocking slats inside with holes drilled in them and filled with foam.

So glad you got up and running Gilaminum. No time for bass talk now but bi amping seems a great idea. I have a 205 w parasound and 120 rotel that I could do similar bi amping with. And the parasound amp has gain adjust so I guess I could match level. I read that you shouldnt mix amps for biamping so havent tried it. Sounds like it works well.

Hey Applescrap--hope you find some good tweeter replacements. Madisound sells good stuff, not cheap, though. When browsing, look at the freq. response graphs that accompany the tweeters. That should help you find some bright ones. You can also call them and tell them what you're looking for. Their staff are pretty good at helping people find what they need.

I'm a bit rusty, but if you ever want to talk speaker-building, shoot me a PM.


I built a pair of these with Madisound drivers back in the late '90s--Peerless 8" woofers, Audax 4" mids and Audax dome tweets. Cabinets 3/4" oak-veneered MDF.

My fugly home-made 70W/ch power amp:

The system I had in about 1981, crammed into my efficiency apt. in the basement of a plumbing supply company (cheap rent!). DIY speakers--18" JBL sub; speakers 15" JBL woofers and JBL ribbon tweeters. Cabs made from 3/4" particleboard, painted flat black. Sub powered by a 250W/ch Carver amp, mono bridged to 500W RMS. Speakers driven by a 120W/ch Nikko power amp. Biamp crossover at 63Hz. Nikko preamp and tuner, Technics cass, Teac open-reel and Technics turntable. Wish I still had that gear, but I sold it off piecemeal in the late '80s when I needed the cash. I still have that TT, though (see above).

 

[Kharnynb]

been buying up sennheiser px-100's as they are discontinuing them and they are by far the best on ear headphone for money and comfort....get em while you still can.

 

[applescrap]

Soooo the bw outdoor speakers are freaking amazing of course [emoji109] . Metal tweeter and 4 or 5 inch whatever it is, its awesome. Now I want to replace the v202s in the kids play room with them and put the 202s outside. They are bassy and clean. Sound really good. I kind of want to donate them to the pool we use in the summer! just sayin. The yamahas arent overly bad at the pool, but these are really clean. These in the kids room with the velodyne uld12 (cause I wont use it anymore upstairs) sound good. I am going to get into a deep bass talk sooner or later. The v202s are 7in speakers I think.

@MaxStout will do! Thanks for the offer. Those cabinets are gorgeous and i like the fugly amp [emoji106] .

That is an awesome deal on those sennheiser but pass for me. I have used plenty of sennheise gear over the years and it is durable and quality. I cant say it has blown me away though. The guy i bought the outdoor bw from had a pair of open back? Open something he called them and he let me listen to them, I think they were pretty pricey (500$) and unfortunately I thought they were very nice but overpriced. I would and am going to wait for some bw headphones on craigslist.

 

[ITV]

Klipsch fan here. The wife had me put the home theater system in the basement with the 2 channel system. Now my subwoofer is in the same room now.

 

[cyto]

New to the forum and was told about this thread. I am a big audio guy, having been a CET in the 70s I like to build and modify equipment. And listen to it while drinking homebrew.

Here are a couple of pix, I am in the middle of re-figuring my layout. I did have the La Scalas at the end of the room on the short wall (the room is 11'6" x 22') I am trying them on the long wall now.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

So... Started doing more work on the Jeep audio system. The Wrangler at that time didn't have Bluetooth, so I was using a Bluetooth FM transmitter, which was as bad as it sounds. I figured I needed a new head unit. And since the Jeep lives topless essentially 100% of the time, figured that a HU with higher power output would help with that too.

But as I did more and more research, I realized that because I have the Wrangler Rubicon with the "premium" Infinity audio system, this is a lot more complex. Part of the issue is that the speakers/amp in the premium system are all 2 ohm. When I replaced my dash and roll bar speakers, I replaced them with 4 ohm. So that's a problem.

Then, the existing amp is an 8-channel amp and sound processor, driving all 4 mains, 2 tweeters, and bridged to a dual voice coil sub. It requires active communication with the head unit for fade control, so if you replace the HU, you lose fade. And the existing amp is really underpowered to begin with, so I'm not even getting close to driving my main speakers properly.

Worse, the amp uses speaker-level inputs instead of line level, so it's amplifying an already-amplified signal.

So... I replaced the head unit. It did make some difference, because the output of the new head unit is higher. So I can run it loud enough to hear on the freeway without pushing the HU into the distortion zone.

But now I'm stuck with a need to upgrade literally everything else.

I'm planning on getting an Alpine PDX-V9 to complete replace the factory amp. That will drive my Kicker mains without a problem (they're 75W @ 4 ohm each), and I'll have to put passive crossovers on the front channel to drive the tweeters in parallel.

But with an amp like that, I'll need to upgrade my sub. I've found a number of good-looking 8" shallow mount subs that should fit in the factory location. And if I'm upgrading those, I might as well do the tweeters next too.

So the $150 HU install I did is now turning into somewhere in the $700-800 total system rebuild cost. But the stereo in the car I rarely drive will finally be done right!

 

[applescrap]

So... Started doing more work on the Jeep audio system. The Wrangler at that time didn't have Bluetooth, so I was using a Bluetooth FM transmitter, which was as bad as it sounds. I figured I needed a new head unit. And since the Jeep lives topless essentially 100% of the time, figured that a HU with higher power output would help with that too.

But as I did more and more research, I realized that because I have the Wrangler Rubicon with the "premium" Infinity audio system, this is a lot more complex. Part of the issue is that the speakers/amp in the premium system are all 2 ohm. When I replaced my dash and roll bar speakers, I replaced them with 4 ohm. So that's a problem.

Then, the existing amp is an 8-channel amp and sound processor, driving all 4 mains, 2 tweeters, and bridged to a dual voice coil sub. It requires active communication with the head unit for fade control, so if you replace the HU, you lose fade. And the existing amp is really underpowered to begin with, so I'm not even getting close to driving my main speakers properly.

Worse, the amp uses speaker-level inputs instead of line level, so it's amplifying an already-amplified signal.

So... I replaced the head unit. It did make some difference, because the output of the new head unit is higher. So I can run it loud enough to hear on the freeway without pushing the HU into the distortion zone.

But now I'm stuck with a need to upgrade literally everything else.

I'm planning on getting an Alpine PDX-V9 to complete replace the factory amp. That will drive my Kicker mains without a problem (they're 75W @ 4 ohm each), and I'll have to put passive crossovers on the front channel to drive the tweeters in parallel.

But with an amp like that, I'll need to upgrade my sub. I've found a number of good-looking 8" shallow mount subs that should fit in the factory location. And if I'm upgrading those, I might as well do the tweeters next too.

So the $150 HU install I did is now turning into somewhere in the $700-800 total system rebuild cost. But the stereo in the car I rarely drive will finally be done right!

Sounds like a great plan, right down to the passive crossover.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I ordered all the remaining equipment (amp, wiring kit, woofer, crossovers) yesterday. The amp is the Alpine PDX-V9, which I have seen plenty of people online can fit in the factory amp location in the dash, so I won't have to go crazy with the wiring. And being mounted in the dash, it'll be completely hidden, which of course is important for a vehicle without a top.

I went with the Alpine S-W8D2 sub. It'll handle 300W power, and has dual 2 ohm voice coils that I can run in parallel to present 1 ohm to the amp (which drives as much as 500 at 1 ohm to the sub), so I have plenty of headroom. Same with the mains, which take 75W at 4 ohm and the amp puts out 100W, so plenty of headroom.

Things will start arriving later today, with I think the sub the only thing that won't show up until mid-week.

Once this is done, the only remaining job will be tweeters, but I think that can wait if I choose. With the crossovers in place, the tweeters can be easily swapped without tearing the whole dash apart, so it can be done in 20 minutes whenever I figure out exactly what fits.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Finally got a chance to actually drive the Jeep with the new stereo. Holy cow what an improvement!

It was a short jaunt, as I had to transfer the kids back to their mom this morning.

On the way over there, I heard background vocals on The Raconteurs' Steady As She Goes that I'd never heard before. I was worried that as it was streaming (SiriusXM app) that the limited quality of the source would limit the value of the stereo components, but it was great.

After dropping them off, I threw in a CD of Dr Dre's 2001 album, and turned it up a little more. Though the sub is only 8", it's plenty when you push a couple hundred watts through it. More bass than that would be unbalanced for my taste.

It's still not fully tuned, as I haven't had time, so I just set the gains to midpoint and crossover to the specified frequency range of the sub. Probably need to play around with the radio's EQ as well as I think the treble is a little too high. But man, I forgot what it was like to have a GOOD system.

 

[passedpawn]

I just replaced large floor-standing speakers (6 of them) with in-wall Polks. I guess this is going backwards a bit, in an audiophile sense. I got tired of the look and wanted it to be much cleaner. The in-walls are almost flush, with a clean white grill. I might go back some day and move the L/R apart a bit more, but they are wider than they look (it's big tv). I went from 7.1 channel down to 5.1. Subwoofer is on the other side of room.

But, it still sounds great for movies. Mediocre for music, mainly because with these smaller speakers, the low frequencies are created by the sub, but my Yamaha receiver doesn't use the sub for 2-channel sound. Anyway, just put these up a couple of weeks ago, pretty stoked.

 

[day_trippr]

Hey, lookit them li'l thangs in the wall!
Definitely cleanest looking kit I've seen, but I like my speakers meatier...

Cheers! (The paint can is a nice touch. You should leave it )


[edit] I s'pose I should show the mishmash kit I run. Venerable Ohm Walsh 4's left and right (which replaced my original Ohm Fs - I'm talking Way Back Machine speakers ), 12" bass, Mirage center and left/right surrounds, Boston Acoustics rear. And a Spousal Unit less than interested in all this

Cheers!

 

[ITV]

I hear you on the Spouse unit. All I have to do is turn my stereo on and the Wife is gone.

It doesn't help that I have a 270 watts/channel powering my Klipsch Forte's woofers, Dynaco St70 powering the mids and tweeters for the 2 channel system which is mingled with my home theater sytem: 140 watts X7 powering Klipsch RF-7, RC-7 and RS-7. On top of that I have a SVS PB12 plus 2 subwoofer.

 

[smata67]

For someone looking to homebrew a pair of speakers, the Pioneer SP-BS22 are currently on sale now at Walmart for $79 shipped. Scarf up a pair and do the Dennis Murphy mods described in the linked thread to end up with a fabulous set of speakers for under $200.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pioneer-SP-BS22-LR-80W-Andrew-Jones-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers-Pair/24491101
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...-pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-diy-modifications.610820/

 

[BongoYodeler]

Well here's a thread I never knew existed.

 

[applescrap]

I just replaced large floor-standing speakers (6 of them) with in-wall Polks. I guess this is going backwards a bit, in an audiophile sense. I got tired of the look and wanted it to be much cleaner. The in-walls are almost flush, with a clean white grill. I might go back some day and move the L/R apart a bit more, but they are wider than they look (it's big tv). I went from 7.1 channel down to 5.1. Subwoofer is on the other side of room.

But, it still sounds great for movies. Mediocre for music, mainly because with these smaller speakers, the low frequencies are created by the sub, but my Yamaha receiver doesn't use the sub for 2-channel sound. Anyway, just put these up a couple of weeks ago, pretty stoked.
View attachment 684392

View attachment 684393

Looks pretty slick. Hows it sounding?

 

[applescrap]

For someone looking to homebrew a pair of speakers, the Pioneer SP-BS22 are currently on sale now at Walmart for $79 shipped. Scarf up a pair and do the Dennis Murphy mods described in the linked thread to end up with a fabulous set of speakers for under $200.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pioneer-SP-BS22-LR-80W-Andrew-Jones-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers-Pair/24491101
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...-pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-diy-modifications.610820/

Super cool. I am familiar with those and 79 is a killer deal. Would make great garage speakers. I have heard them, but not in the best settings. A brewery I go to has them. Would be cool to a b listen to them against my v202s. I bought two pairs over the years. They were the lowest line of bw in the late 90s iirc. I paid 50 for each pair, and it has a 7 in and nice silk tweeter. That upgrade btw is awesome. Sounds like with that upgrade these would sound closer to 1000 dollar bookshelves. That said I prefer metal tweeters.

 

[applescrap]

I hear you on the Spouse unit. All I have to do is turn my stereo on and the Wife is gone.

It doesn't help that I have a 270 watts/channel powering my Klipsch Forte's woofers, Dynaco St70 powering the mids and tweeters for the 2 channel system which is mingled with my home theater sytem: 140 watts X7 powering Klipsch RF-7, RC-7 and RS-7. On top of that I have a SVS PB12 plus 2 subwoofer.
View attachment 684473

That looks like a lot of fun. Is the 270 watts coming from that pioneer? amp. Pretty cool. I need to do same, every now and then I crave surround, but dang it, the other 90 percent of the movie sounds better in stereo.

 

[ITV]

That looks like a lot of fun. Is the 270 watts coming from that pioneer? amp. Pretty cool. I need to do same, every now and then I crave surround, but dang it, the other 90 percent of the movie sounds better in stereo.

Yes the 270 watts is coming from the pioneer receiver, the solid state amp has that chest thumping bass that the tube amp can't produce.
My Klipsch main surround speakers (RF-7's) can hold it's own with stereo.

 

[smata67]

Super cool. I am familiar with those and 79 is a killer deal. Would make great garage speakers. I have heard them, but not in the best settings. A brewery I go to has them. Would be cool to a b listen to them against my v202s. I bought two pairs over the years. They were the lowest line of bw in the late 90s iirc. I paid 50 for each pair, and it has a 7 in and nice silk tweeter. That upgrade btw is awesome. Sounds like with that upgrade these would sound closer to 1000 dollar bookshelves. That said I prefer metal tweeters.

The unmodified speakers are okay, but nothing like the ones with the "Dennis Murphy Mods," an animal of completely different complexion. Funny you should mention they might be as good as $1000 speakers, as this well regarded "insider" site's measurements reveal they measure better than pretty much ANY speaker at ANY price. A fun DIY speaker project with a favorable end result. Something a homebrewer might appreciate while working on his next batch...

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/affordable-accuracy-monitor-review.13624/

 

[dstockwell]

My latest addition

SIVGA-PII planar magnetic, first set of open back, not friendly if people are in the room but hey they sound good.

Next is to replace my player with an IBASSO DX160, on the way.

 

[kevink]

My latest addition

SIVGA-PII planar magnetic, first set of open back, not friendly if people are in the room but hey they sound good.

I'm not a headphone guy, but I would like to hear what planar magnetic headphones sound like. I have planar magnetic speakers, but the concept of planar headphones seems very different. They're dipoles, right?

 

[dstockwell]

Try this link.
https://www.howtogeek.com/327846/what-are-planar-magnetic-headphones/