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afro_lou

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Alright back to the drawing board....i have wiggled everything that can wiggled with no results. I was planning on replacing the stereo anyways so I'll see if that works









I'll be honest with you, I am fairly handy but not with electrical work...so I didn't understand most of this. I do know the power goes from stereo, to the speaker, to the tweeter. The tweeter is working just fine, just not the speaker i put in. I still have yet to switch the driver side with this one to see if there is any change (it's been raining here and I don't have a garage) so I need to to check that just to cover all bases.



Any other ideas out there I would gladly accept and appreciate

Are the tweeter and woofer separate or all in one? Is the head unit a "bi-amp" unit? I.e., are there two sets of speaker wires for each channel? I'm wondering if you're getting a high-pass signal from a crossover sent to the woofer, which would make it sound very thing for sure...
 

jodell

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Whelp...i feel dumb.
Took my wife's car out of town this past weekend for easter, only to discover her car has the exact same problem....found out it is because I only tested my car with an aux cord plugged into my phone. I guess my phone does not support stereo sound, we put on the radio and her car was fine, I haven't tested it in my car yet but I can't imagine it would be anything else.

Thanks to everybody who helped me out on this!
 

GilaMinumBeer

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Whelp...i feel dumb.
Took my wife's car out of town this past weekend for easter, only to discover her car has the exact same problem....found out it is because I only tested my car with an aux cord plugged into my phone. I guess my phone does not support stereo sound, we put on the radio and her car was fine, I haven't tested it in my car yet but I can't imagine it would be anything else.

Thanks to everybody who helped me out on this!
Now that sounds like you are using a two-way auxillary cable in a 3 way mini jack. Or vice-versa.
 

Jwin

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Or your phone case is keeping the aux cord from fully inserting, making contact with the ring and sleeve, but not the tip.
I had to drill out my current case for this reason.
Hope it works out for ya!
 

jodell

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Well put a CD in and the speakers are working great! Ordered a new stereo with Bluetooth and a usb to make music on my phone work better.

I took my case off and insured it was plugged in all the way and still had the problem
 

bwarbiany

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I poly-filled mine a while back, both sound bar and sub enclosure. I could tell a pretty big difference in bass response and much more mid range punch.

Afterwards I replaced the sound-bar speakers and sub driver which helped a lot but the best single mod that improved the stock sound most was re-capping the dash tweeters. It's pretty simple to do if you can solder at all, here's a link if you're interested.
Thanks again for this... I did the tweeter mod on Monday, and it's SO much better. I can actually hear the tweeters now.
 
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applescrap

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Fun reading back through this thread. So many great tips and advice and help from so many of you and also realizing what a wanker I am. Thanks for the great info.

Got a little bug again and called the knowledgeable audio guy I bought my speakers from with a plethora of questions, which I will share here, maybe not all tonight. Learned tons along the way and made some personal choices. Man where to begin.

One initial question was about bi amping the speakers. He was not impressed and asked how much it would cost. Since it is an older cheaper amp in question he thought it wouldn't hurt and would add some sound quality. He mentioned he had a new parasound amp and that they were awesome etc etc. He offered to send it to me and if I didnt like it return it no questions asked. The price was amazing but I still am just not at a good place to lay down over 1k (cheap in hifi land) on another amp. That sent me looking into what more power would do, bi amping, amp quality, abx testing and more. Man what a journey and I am still confused about bi amping. Does biamping with two 120 watt amps double power? I think I have come to understand that it still is only 120 to each speaker, so only gain some headspace.

Started researching if amp quality mattered and sure enough found all kinds of thought. Appparently some guy named richard clark offered 10k of his own money for anyone who could tell aparts similar amps under certain conditions. Well certain conditions means a lot. And then blind testing. Apparently blind testing discussion is outlawed on many audio forums. Made me think of beer and blind tasting. Saw results where 3k cables and 10k cd players didnt show results and made me wonder. Deciding that amp watts meant louder and also not to worried about the best I figured louder cant be too bad :)

Well the guy I bought the speakers from said they had been making amps the same way for 20 years and that he knew the owner and it was quality gear. Using that info I searched and scored a 205 watt per channel amp, parasound hca 1500a for 270. It is clear to me that my nice rotel 120w amp was distorting at higher volumes. It can still play loud but I was not hearing the cleanliness that more power provides at even somewhat modest volumes. I think I will always seek higher power amps from now on. Rotel in bedroom now and it could be worse.

He also mentioned source. I was like power amps right and he was like no thats a power amp and he described sources. And I realized we discussed cds earlier. Then I started researching cd vs youtube etc... and came to the realization that pandora claims 64kbs or 128kbs, youtube similar (I think less) and cds are 1400kbs. So i listened to a few cds and wow, what a difference. But then realized my cheap a.. doesnt own any cds. Sooo scored a lot of 375cds for cheap. Great cds too. I saw huge deals but I am so glad i passed. I didnt even recognize most of them. Got a nice start from this guy but noticed he left a lot of the less popular albums from some groups and took a lot of jammy stuff out like slayer, iron maiden, metallica, judas priest, anthrax etc. But awesome collection u2, cure, elvis Costello, alan jackson, tori amos, wide spread panic, blink 182, may chapin, grateful dead, dixie chicks, kruder and dorfmeister, a nirvana, depesche mode, metallica (enter sandman cd), and so many more. A tasty little collection.

Excuse me to all that know, knew all this stuff, but thought I would share in case it would spark some thought. I have more I will share later and hope to get into some of these other ideas more. Final note, I have disconnected all subs for now! I think they were ruining the music.
 

MaxStout

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Just discovered this thread--thanks, applescrap. I don't have any high-end gear, but some of what I do have is home-built. A pair of floor-standing, ported 3-way speakers I built from veneered MDF. Peerless woofers, Audax mids and dome tweeters. Home-built crossovers too. Built a couple solid state power amps--nothing fancy, just 2 channel stereo at 70W/ch RMS into 8 ohms. Built all that stuff back in my engineering days. Still sounds good today.

Cool story about blind testing. There was an old-school EE at National Semiconductor, named Bob Pease. A real guru among analog engineers, he wrote op-ed pieces in some of the EE trade mags. In the '90s, he wrote an article making fun of the esoteric speaker cables that were being touted at the time (PDF). It stirred up a big firestorm in the tweak-head audio community, with a flame war coming from some of the proponents of these expensive cables. Good times.
 
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applescrap

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Wow that is cool, Max. They sound amazing and the amps too, impressive. Maybe its time to build a 200w amp for those. I am starting to think power is king. I am still struggling like heck with the subs, even crossing them over I just dont know if I like them. With movie on bookshelves, maybe, depends on movie, but with big towers they just cant, and I am wondering, won't integrate. A guy was selling some original bw 802s for 800. Called him and asked him why he removed them, and he said he listened to them. They were from 1979 to 1984 and I bet they sound amazing and quality, but I just couldnt with a fabric tweeter. They are warm, natural, and some love them but I like the brightness, detail, and clarity of metal tweeters. Well these popped up yesterday and I jumped on them. Outdoor bw speakers. Yea baby cant wait to hear them. They are heavy and feel classy.

Got the cds organized and added my small bad collection. Also finally pulled the turntable out and put it upstairs. Super happy to give it a try.


20180130_184619.jpg
 

MaxStout

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Those B&Ws will sound nice on your patio or wherever you set them.

For those subs, have you tried experimenting with crossover frequencies?

If you get those 802s and you're into some DIY and want to swap out the tweets, check out Madisound. They might have something that will give a brighter high-end.
 

GilaMinumBeer

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The key to a powered subwoofer is room placement. And by that I mean you want to either take advantage of, or counteract, modal response of the room and boundary gain. Both of which can take clean sounding bass and make it either boomy and over powering or muddy and lifeless.

A properly placed sub, adjusted to the right level, should not be "present". It should be seamless with the rest of the system to the point that the only way you'd tell if it was missing is if you turned it off.


Got my system wired and running again. Gawd how I've missed having music in the house. Movies are more interesting. And video games take on a new depth of immersion.
 

SleepyCreekBrews

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One initial question was about bi amping the speakers. He was not impressed and asked how much it would cost. Since it is an older cheaper amp in question he thought it wouldn't hurt and would add some sound quality. He mentioned he had a new parasound amp and that they were awesome etc etc. He offered to send it to me and if I didnt like it return it no questions asked. The price was amazing but I still am just not at a good place to lay down over 1k (cheap in hifi land) on another amp. That sent me looking into what more power would do, bi amping, amp quality, abx testing and more. Man what a journey and I am still confused about bi amping. Does biamping with two 120 watt amps double power? I think I have come to understand that it still is only 120 to each speaker, so only gain some headspace.
Hey @applescrap
Just wanted to reach out about Bi-Amp. Throughout the years, I've owned 4 different sounds systems that have been bi-amped, every one of them was far superior to to anything else available in the same price range (IMO). Just incredible clarity and definition.

Generally speaking , the bi-amp system enables the drivers to be driven with much cleaner, and higher levels of power. Case in point is the JBL LSR-28P ...each 8" woofer driven with a 250W LF amp, and the 1" dome tweeter driven with a 120W HF amp.
Tons of headroom there, virtually eliminating chances of clipping & distortion. I'm not sure if they're equivalent to a conventional amp and speakers driven with a 370W/channel amp, but I can tell you, they play extremely loud and clear, and well defined.

If you ever get a chance to listen to some of the LSR studio monitors from JBL, don't pass it up.
 

arturo7

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The element in bi-amping that is most overlooked is which is probably the most important is the quality of the crossover. The crossover is the piece of hardware that divides the signal by frequency. Highs go one way, lows go another.

Every time you add something to the signal chain you risk degrading sound quality. A subwoofer with a poor quality crossover might add some low end, but it will also degrade the sound of your whole system.
 

MaxStout

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The element in bi-amping that is most overlooked is which is probably the most important is the quality of the crossover. The crossover is the piece of hardware that divides the signal by frequency. Highs go one way, lows go another.

Every time you add something to the signal chain you risk degrading sound quality. A subwoofer with a poor quality crossover might add some low end, but it will also degrade the sound of your whole system.
Yep, the crossover network is critical. I don't use active (powered) crossovers, just passive. The components are key--choosing air-core inductors over iron-core, and polypropylene caps over NP electrolytics drives up the price, but the sound quality is far better.

Choosing the crossover frequency depends primarily on the tuning characteristics (Q) of the speaker drivers, and the impedances. Design the crossover to allow plenty of overlap in freq., about 1 octave above and below. For example, if the crossover freq. is 80 Hz, the freq. response of the low-pass (to the sub) would not roll off until around 160 Hz, and the high-pass (to the sats) would not roll off until below 40 Hz. This overlap will minimize the "notch" in the overall frequency response of the system. This principle also applies to internal crossover networks for 2-way and 3-way loudspeakers.

If you buy an off-the-shelf crossover for bi-amping, you're stuck with what's inside. With DIY you can dial it in much better and choose better components. Kind of like home brewing. :)

There are some online crossover design programs that probably work well, though I've never tried any. Years ago, when I was was building loudspeakers I used LEAP software. The math gets a little crazy, so good crossover design software makes it fairly straightforward.

A good reference on loudspeaker and crossover design is Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, by Vance Dickason.
 
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applescrap

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Wow, so much good stuff here. Maxstout what a cool site. I mean really, almost mad for not fore warning me that it was amazeballs and I would likely want to build some speakers. how does this gear sound, I suspect good. Makes me want to build a sweet setup. Looks like around 300 would potentially replace external tweeter on 802s at low end. Assuming fostek sounds as good as the bw, I assume its close, idk though. I couldnt afford right now with daycare and all to do to much and I have been lucky on used scene. It makes me wonder though how expensive it would be to out do commercial speakers. I like the matrix bw cabinetry and seems a good place to start. A grid of interlocking slats inside with holes drilled in them and filled with foam.

So glad you got up and running Gilaminum. No time for bass talk now but bi amping seems a great idea. I have a 205 w parasound and 120 rotel that I could do similar bi amping with. And the parasound amp has gain adjust so I guess I could match level. I read that you shouldnt mix amps for biamping so havent tried it. Sounds like it works well.
 
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GilaMinumBeer

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So glad you got up and running Gilaminum. No time for bass talk now but bi amping seems a great idea. I have a 205 w parasound and 120 rotel that I could do similar bi amping with. And the parasound amp has gain adjust so I guess I could match level. I read that you shouldnt mix amps for biamping so havent tried it. Sounds like it works well.
I am fortunate that I have a receiver with sufficient amp headspace to bi-amp using just the speaker A & B terminals. Currently running my B&W DM604 series 2's bi-amped this way and the sound is clean. Power draw is insane though. Get a bit crazy and have it up too load and it nearly trips the house circuits, lights dimming with the bass beats.
 

30_Ounce

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I too have the disease! Been an audiophile since the 80's. I started with Acoustat speakers then Martin Logan CLS's with Entech subs and now my current setup B&W Nautilus 805 Signatures, Velodyne 15" sub, Aragon 4004, Audio Research pre, Toshiba DVD Audio player. Monster Power conditioner.
Image 2-1-18 at 7.19 AM.jpg
 

MaxStout

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Wow, so much good stuff here. Maxstout what a cool site. I mean really, almost mad for not fore warning me that it was amazeballs and I would likely want to build some speakers. how does this gear sound, I suspect good. Makes me want to build a sweet setup. Looks like around 300 would potentially replace external tweeter on 802s at low end. Assuming fostek sounds as good as the bw, I assume its close, idk though. I couldnt afford right now with daycare and all to do to much and I have been lucky on used scene. It makes me wonder though how expensive it would be to out do commercial speakers. I like the matrix bw cabinetry and seems a good place to start. A grid of interlocking slats inside with holes drilled in them and filled with foam.

So glad you got up and running Gilaminum. No time for bass talk now but bi amping seems a great idea. I have a 205 w parasound and 120 rotel that I could do similar bi amping with. And the parasound amp has gain adjust so I guess I could match level. I read that you shouldnt mix amps for biamping so havent tried it. Sounds like it works well.
Hey Applescrap--hope you find some good tweeter replacements. Madisound sells good stuff, not cheap, though. When browsing, look at the freq. response graphs that accompany the tweeters. That should help you find some bright ones. You can also call them and tell them what you're looking for. Their staff are pretty good at helping people find what they need.

I'm a bit rusty, but if you ever want to talk speaker-building, shoot me a PM.


I built a pair of these with Madisound drivers back in the late '90s--Peerless 8" woofers, Audax 4" mids and Audax dome tweets. Cabinets 3/4" oak-veneered MDF.

sm2018 Speaker.jpg




My fugly home-made 70W/ch power amp:

sm2018 Audio Gear.jpg




The system I had in about 1981, crammed into my efficiency apt. in the basement of a plumbing supply company (cheap rent!). DIY speakers--18" JBL sub; speakers 15" JBL woofers and JBL ribbon tweeters. Cabs made from 3/4" particleboard, painted flat black. Sub powered by a 250W/ch Carver amp, mono bridged to 500W RMS. Speakers driven by a 120W/ch Nikko power amp. Biamp crossover at 63Hz. Nikko preamp and tuner, Technics cass, Teac open-reel and Technics turntable. Wish I still had that gear, but I sold it off piecemeal in the late '80s when I needed the cash. :( I still have that TT, though (see above).

sm1981 Stereo 1a.jpg
 

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Kharnynb

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been buying up sennheiser px-100's as they are discontinuing them and they are by far the best on ear headphone for money and comfort....get em while you still can.
 
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applescrap

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Soooo the bw outdoor speakers are freaking amazing of course [emoji109] . Metal tweeter and 4 or 5 inch whatever it is, its awesome. Now I want to replace the v202s in the kids play room with them and put the 202s outside. They are bassy and clean. Sound really good. I kind of want to donate them to the pool we use in the summer! :) just sayin. The yamahas arent overly bad at the pool, but these are really clean. These in the kids room with the velodyne uld12 (cause I wont use it anymore upstairs) sound good. I am going to get into a deep bass talk sooner or later. The v202s are 7in speakers I think.

@MaxStout will do! Thanks for the offer. Those cabinets are gorgeous and i like the fugly amp [emoji106] .

That is an awesome deal on those sennheiser but pass for me. I have used plenty of sennheise gear over the years and it is durable and quality. I cant say it has blown me away though. The guy i bought the outdoor bw from had a pair of open back? Open something he called them and he let me listen to them, I think they were pretty pricey (500$) and unfortunately I thought they were very nice but overpriced. I would and am going to wait for some bw headphones on craigslist.
Screenshot_2018-02-01-20-29-47.png
 

ITV

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Klipsch fan here. The wife had me put the home theater system in the basement with the 2 channel system. Now my subwoofer is in the same room now.

IMG_1132.JPG
 

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New to the forum and was told about this thread. I am a big audio guy, having been a CET in the 70s I like to build and modify equipment. And listen to it while drinking homebrew.

Here are a couple of pix, I am in the middle of re-figuring my layout. I did have the La Scalas at the end of the room on the short wall (the room is 11'6" x 22') I am trying them on the long wall now.

a.jpg
b.jpg
c.jpg
 

bwarbiany

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So... Started doing more work on the Jeep audio system. The Wrangler at that time didn't have Bluetooth, so I was using a Bluetooth FM transmitter, which was as bad as it sounds. I figured I needed a new head unit. And since the Jeep lives topless essentially 100% of the time, figured that a HU with higher power output would help with that too.

But as I did more and more research, I realized that because I have the Wrangler Rubicon with the "premium" Infinity audio system, this is a lot more complex. Part of the issue is that the speakers/amp in the premium system are all 2 ohm. When I replaced my dash and roll bar speakers, I replaced them with 4 ohm. So that's a problem.

Then, the existing amp is an 8-channel amp and sound processor, driving all 4 mains, 2 tweeters, and bridged to a dual voice coil sub. It requires active communication with the head unit for fade control, so if you replace the HU, you lose fade. And the existing amp is really underpowered to begin with, so I'm not even getting close to driving my main speakers properly.

Worse, the amp uses speaker-level inputs instead of line level, so it's amplifying an already-amplified signal.

So... I replaced the head unit. It did make some difference, because the output of the new head unit is higher. So I can run it loud enough to hear on the freeway without pushing the HU into the distortion zone.

But now I'm stuck with a need to upgrade literally everything else.

I'm planning on getting an Alpine PDX-V9 to complete replace the factory amp. That will drive my Kicker mains without a problem (they're 75W @ 4 ohm each), and I'll have to put passive crossovers on the front channel to drive the tweeters in parallel.

But with an amp like that, I'll need to upgrade my sub. I've found a number of good-looking 8" shallow mount subs that should fit in the factory location. And if I'm upgrading those, I might as well do the tweeters next too.

So the $150 HU install I did is now turning into somewhere in the $700-800 total system rebuild cost. But the stereo in the car I rarely drive will finally be done right!
 
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applescrap

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So... Started doing more work on the Jeep audio system. The Wrangler at that time didn't have Bluetooth, so I was using a Bluetooth FM transmitter, which was as bad as it sounds. I figured I needed a new head unit. And since the Jeep lives topless essentially 100% of the time, figured that a HU with higher power output would help with that too.

But as I did more and more research, I realized that because I have the Wrangler Rubicon with the "premium" Infinity audio system, this is a lot more complex. Part of the issue is that the speakers/amp in the premium system are all 2 ohm. When I replaced my dash and roll bar speakers, I replaced them with 4 ohm. So that's a problem.

Then, the existing amp is an 8-channel amp and sound processor, driving all 4 mains, 2 tweeters, and bridged to a dual voice coil sub. It requires active communication with the head unit for fade control, so if you replace the HU, you lose fade. And the existing amp is really underpowered to begin with, so I'm not even getting close to driving my main speakers properly.

Worse, the amp uses speaker-level inputs instead of line level, so it's amplifying an already-amplified signal.

So... I replaced the head unit. It did make some difference, because the output of the new head unit is higher. So I can run it loud enough to hear on the freeway without pushing the HU into the distortion zone.

But now I'm stuck with a need to upgrade literally everything else.

I'm planning on getting an Alpine PDX-V9 to complete replace the factory amp. That will drive my Kicker mains without a problem (they're 75W @ 4 ohm each), and I'll have to put passive crossovers on the front channel to drive the tweeters in parallel.

But with an amp like that, I'll need to upgrade my sub. I've found a number of good-looking 8" shallow mount subs that should fit in the factory location. And if I'm upgrading those, I might as well do the tweeters next too.

So the $150 HU install I did is now turning into somewhere in the $700-800 total system rebuild cost. But the stereo in the car I rarely drive will finally be done right!
Sounds like a great plan, right down to the passive crossover.
 

bwarbiany

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I ordered all the remaining equipment (amp, wiring kit, woofer, crossovers) yesterday. The amp is the Alpine PDX-V9, which I have seen plenty of people online can fit in the factory amp location in the dash, so I won't have to go crazy with the wiring. And being mounted in the dash, it'll be completely hidden, which of course is important for a vehicle without a top.

I went with the Alpine S-W8D2 sub. It'll handle 300W power, and has dual 2 ohm voice coils that I can run in parallel to present 1 ohm to the amp (which drives as much as 500 at 1 ohm to the sub), so I have plenty of headroom. Same with the mains, which take 75W at 4 ohm and the amp puts out 100W, so plenty of headroom.

Things will start arriving later today, with I think the sub the only thing that won't show up until mid-week.

Once this is done, the only remaining job will be tweeters, but I think that can wait if I choose. With the crossovers in place, the tweeters can be easily swapped without tearing the whole dash apart, so it can be done in 20 minutes whenever I figure out exactly what fits.
 

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Finally got a chance to actually drive the Jeep with the new stereo. Holy cow what an improvement!

It was a short jaunt, as I had to transfer the kids back to their mom this morning.

On the way over there, I heard background vocals on The Raconteurs' Steady As She Goes that I'd never heard before. I was worried that as it was streaming (SiriusXM app) that the limited quality of the source would limit the value of the stereo components, but it was great.

After dropping them off, I threw in a CD of Dr Dre's 2001 album, and turned it up a little more. Though the sub is only 8", it's plenty when you push a couple hundred watts through it. More bass than that would be unbalanced for my taste.

It's still not fully tuned, as I haven't had time, so I just set the gains to midpoint and crossover to the specified frequency range of the sub. Probably need to play around with the radio's EQ as well as I think the treble is a little too high. But man, I forgot what it was like to have a GOOD system.
 
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I just replaced large floor-standing speakers (6 of them) with in-wall Polks. I guess this is going backwards a bit, in an audiophile sense. I got tired of the look and wanted it to be much cleaner. The in-walls are almost flush, with a clean white grill. I might go back some day and move the L/R apart a bit more, but they are wider than they look (it's big tv). I went from 7.1 channel down to 5.1. Subwoofer is on the other side of room.

But, it still sounds great for movies. Mediocre for music, mainly because with these smaller speakers, the low frequencies are created by the sub, but my Yamaha receiver doesn't use the sub for 2-channel sound. Anyway, just put these up a couple of weeks ago, pretty stoked.
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day_trippr

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Hey, lookit them li'l thangs in the wall!
Definitely cleanest looking kit I've seen, but I like my speakers meatier...

Cheers! (The paint can is a nice touch. You should leave it :D)


[edit] I s'pose I should show the mishmash kit I run. Venerable Ohm Walsh 4's left and right (which replaced my original Ohm Fs - I'm talking Way Back Machine speakers ;)), 12" bass, Mirage center and left/right surrounds, Boston Acoustics rear. And a Spousal Unit less than interested in all this ;)

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Cheers!
 
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ITV

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I hear you on the Spouse unit. All I have to do is turn my stereo on and the Wife is gone.

It doesn't help that I have a 270 watts/channel powering my Klipsch Forte's woofers, Dynaco St70 powering the mids and tweeters for the 2 channel system which is mingled with my home theater sytem: 140 watts X7 powering Klipsch RF-7, RC-7 and RS-7. On top of that I have a SVS PB12 plus 2 subwoofer.
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smata67

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For someone looking to homebrew a pair of speakers, the Pioneer SP-BS22 are currently on sale now at Walmart for $79 shipped. Scarf up a pair and do the Dennis Murphy mods described in the linked thread to end up with a fabulous set of speakers for under $200.


 
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