Something that has been covered to death

[tommysauder]

Ok so I am going to bottle in a couple weeks, and read a crap load of threads about BOTTLE CAP sanitization and how crazy it would be if you didn't.

My only question is this:

How come whenever I've let ANY type of beer open after touching my mouth, hair flying around and dust in the air out over night, it never ferments? Whether it be local micro breweries or name brand beers.

Out of my 10 years of beer drinking I've not once seen a beer randomly start fermenting on its own...

Not arguing about the process just wondering if store bought beer is magical :cross:

EDIT: Not to mention the beers left outside over night on a hot summer day!

 

[Cbaddad]

It is not about fermenting. It is about it becoming infected. Leaving beer out overnight has never made it taste better in my experience.

 

[andycr]

I have had wort I left out overnight in a hydrometer tube with no yeast in it start fermenting spontaneously, krausen and all. In fact, it got going faster and harder than the fermenter where I actually pitched.

Commercial beers are sometimes pasteurized, so only what happened to be in the air when you open it could get into it. Would you expect it to start fermenting visibly after 1 day? Do you assume it'll be such a vigorous fermentation it would be visible at all? We're talking very small amounts of wild yeast and other organisms that would, over a significant amount of time, produce enough CO2 to cause bottle bombs. It's not the "done in 4 days" commercially cultivated beer yeast kind of crazy efficiency.

But, said slow mutant yeasts and whatnot can also eat more complex sugar than our commercial yeast, so a beer that is 'finished' still has enough fuel to produce a lot more CO2 when handed to the wrong organism.

At least, that's my limited understanding. I say, why is it so hard to stick the caps in a bowl of sanitizer? Better safe than sorry.

 

[tommysauder]

I agree completely, I was just somewhat puzzled by the fact I've never really seen anything grow in a left open beer other than mold after a long period of time. I'm sure the breweries use some type of additive to prevent such an issue with their beers?

I will sanitize my caps and I've been trying to be as sanitary as possible with my current batch. But making a bleach/water solution and rinsing all the time is quite annoying. I think I'll pickup some star-san and put it in a spray bottle!

 

[AVLbrewing]

I agree completely, I was just somewhat puzzled by the fact I've never really seen anything grow in a left open beer other than mold after a long period of time. I'm sure the breweries use some type of additive to prevent such an issue with their beers?

I will sanitize my caps and I've been trying to be as sanitary as possible with my current batch. But making a bleach/water solution and rinsing all the time is quite annoying. I think I'll pickup some star-san and put it in a spray bottle!

Starsan or some other no rinse sanitizer is the way to go! You'll never look back on those bleach/water days again!

 

[Spintab]

There's nothing left to ferment. All the sugar was used up when the beer was first brewed. If you put some sort of additional sugar, like the priming sugar before you bottle, in the open beer it would ferment.

 

[Snisup]

Ok so I am going to bottle in a couple weeks, and read a crap load of threads about BOTTLE CAP sanitization and how crazy it would be if you didn't.

My only question is this:

How come whenever I've let ANY type of beer open after touching my mouth, hair flying around and dust in the air out over night, it never ferments? Whether it be local micro breweries or name brand beers.

Out of my 10 years of beer drinking I've not once seen a beer randomly start fermenting on its own...

Not arguing about the process just wondering if store bought beer is magical :cross:

EDIT: Not to mention the beers left outside over night on a hot summer day!

How could beer (fermented sugary liquid) ferment again? If it's already beer , you can't make beer beer. Or can you? If so I'd like to try some.

 

[movet22]

I have had wort I left out overnight in a hydrometer tube with no yeast in it start fermenting spontaneously, krausen and all. In fact, it got going faster and harder than the fermenter where I actually pitched.

I hope you tried a sip of this! How was it?

 

[tommysauder]

Feel better - bought some star-san. Says 1 oz for 5 gallons??? This bottle will last forever

 

[Snisup]

Feel better - bought some star-san. Says 1 oz for 5 gallons??? This bottle will last forever

Yup.. Especially if you save some for a spray bottle and are good at planning bottling/brew days to fall on the same day

 

[LBussy]

Feel better - bought some star-san. Says 1 oz for 5 gallons??? This bottle will last forever

Get yourself a couple spray bottles and after you sanitize for a brew session, fill those bottles instead of pouring it all out. I fill kegs with the solution if I can. You can use it a few times if your stuff is not full of mung. The spray-bottles especially are handy, especially when harvesting yeast and making starters.

 

[m_stodd]

What would be fermenting? The already fermented beer? Why not drop some sugar in there and see if it ferments

 

[andycr]

It's been said before, some wild organisms can ferment "unfermentable" sugars. Otherwise lack of sanitation wouldn't cause bottle bombs when bottling truly finished beer.

I hope you tried a sip of this! How was it?

I didn't! I should have, but needed to use the sample tube the day after while it was still going nuts. It smelled... Oddly normal, just the usual hop scent coming off with the CO2.

 

[Lgaddy44]

Right or wrong, I personally never sanitized a single bottle cap. I bottled for about the first year or so, with no infection issues. While I fully sanitized my bottles, and all the other gear, I never did the caps. Just lucky, I dunno. I never noticed a problem, so I never felt the need to change my process. Just my .02

 

[Snisup]

Is it really that hard to throw the caps in a cup of starsan ? You should already have some kind of sanitizer made up for your bottles.

 

[LBussy]

Right or wrong, I personally never sanitized a single bottle cap. I bottled for about the first year or so, with no infection issues. While I fully sanitized my bottles, and all the other gear, I never did the caps. Just lucky, I dunno. I never noticed a problem, so I never felt the need to change my process. Just my .02

I dare you to try again and not sanitize now that you've jinxed yourself.

 

[Spintab]

Right or wrong, I personally never sanitized a single bottle cap. I bottled for about the first year or so, with no infection issues. While I fully sanitized my bottles, and all the other gear, I never did the caps. Just lucky, I dunno. I never noticed a problem, so I never felt the need to change my process. Just my .02

Man what would you do if a doctor said something like that just before surgery? "Oh I've never used a sterile scalpel before but I've never had an issue so I just stuck with it."

Just so we are all clear here. EVERYTHING that touches your beer on the cold side (post boil) and everything that ever touches your yeast needs to be thoroughly sanitized. Everything, always. If you're not already doing this and you haven't had an issue, there is no explanation other than luck.

 

[Lgaddy44]

Man what would you do if a doctor said something like that just before surgery? "Oh I've never used a sterile scalpel before but I've never had an issue so I just stuck with it."

Just so we are all clear here. EVERYTHING that touches your beer on the cold side (post boil) and everything that ever touches your yeast needs to be thoroughly sanitized. Everything, always. If you're not already doing this and you haven't had an issue, there is no explanation other than luck.

Lighten up, Francis.

In no way was I claiming to be writing a "How-to", textbook process for homebrewing. The OP seemed to be questioning the process and importance of sanitizing bottle caps. Many others, including yourself, are stressing the importance of strict sanitation practices, which I whole heartedly agree.

I was simply stating my past experiences, which happen to be 20-30 batches over at least a year's time. You could assume ~1200 of my apocalyptic, unsanitized bottle caps. As lucky as I may have been, I'm sharing my experience only.

I've seen numerous threads on a nervous brewer that had a bug land in his wort, fished his hydrometer out of the bottling bucket by hand, or compromised the sanititation of his/her gear in some way or another. My only point is, don't go flipping out and dump a batch of beer, or even a bottle for that matter. There seems to be a lot of forgiveness in this hobby.

I think the more feedback people receive on our forums, whether good or bad, whether you agree or not, is beneficial to anyone who is interested in learning.

We're brewing beer at home, we're not splitting atoms.

 

[tommysauder]

Yep all experiences are welcomed. It was mentioned that the fact that we're adding priming sugar gives it more chance for infection - which now does make sense. I will sanitize 90% of my bottle caps, the other 10% I won't just to see, and maybe I'll work that number further. For me if I don't have to do something during the process, then why do it? I haven't read too many threads here stating that a beer went bad due to the bottle caps. I've heard of gushers happening but that is generally caused by the batch or bottle.

I like to get as much input as possible because I'm new at this and like to hear all the different angles. This being a home hobby with no set guidelines, there will always be a thousand ways to do things. I'm just trying to rip others ideas off piece by piece I've caught myself making mistakes already and have corrected with the next batch. All inputs definitely help!

 

[Snisup]

Yep all experiences are welcomed. It was mentioned that the fact that we're adding priming sugar gives it more chance for infection - which now does make sense. I will sanitize 90% of my bottle caps, the other 10% I won't just to see, and maybe I'll work that number further. For me if I don't have to do something during the process, then why do it? I haven't read too many threads here stating that a beer went bad due to the bottle caps. I've heard of gushers happening but that is generally caused by the batch or bottle.

I like to get as much input as possible because I'm new at this and like to hear all the different angles. This being a home hobby with no set guidelines, there will always be a thousand ways to do things. I'm just trying to rip others ideas off piece by piece I've caught myself making mistakes already and have corrected with the next batch. All inputs definitely help!

Again.. Is it that much more work to throw your caps in a cup of sanitizer that has already been prepared for sanitizing bottles? Why take the chance? For 5 seconds less work? I don't understand the argument for not sanitizing caps.

 

[tommysauder]

For me it will be for a scientific test. If a couple bottles go that weren't sanitized caps then I'll contact major brewing companies asking.them.how they sterilize their beers lol. Just curious.more than anything

 

[andycr]

An experiment where the reasons and theory are obvious and the result of failure is glass grenades isn't one I want to conduct, but to each his own.

 

[tommysauder]

I'm.just not sure I'm convinced that caps could be so destructive. Just testing a theory. If I lose a few bottles then I'll have learned first hand. Which is what I think homebrew is about. If nothing grenades I save time and money and experience. This post made me go from not sanitizing to sanitizing most of my caps but leaving couple for experience. Thank you for all the input ! I'll update with results in 2 weeks

 

[LBussy]

Yep all experiences are welcomed.

Make sure it is learned experience that you are welcoming and not just "it worked for me".

It was mentioned that the fact that we're adding priming sugar gives it more chance for infection - which now does make sense.

Which is why someone who cares about their beer will boil that sugar with a small amount of water.

For me if I don't have to do something during the process, then why do it?

Because you care enough to avoid the potential. That speaks a lot about a brewer. Not caring enough to avoid the potential also speaks a lot about a brewer.

You should have a bucket of solution there anyway for any operation - or do you not sanitize your racking cane? Your hoses? Give them a dunk or not - what you do with your beer will not impact me. If you are here however we assume you care to expand your experience and skill with ours. If not then save yourself some time, since you've already spent more time on this thread than you would have by sterilizing many batches worth of caps.

 

[tommysauder]

True enough. Now that I actually purchased StarSan and see how easy it is to use, I think I'll flip all the caps and spray them all come bottling day, not worrying if a drop gets in the beer... Didnt think that a bottle of star san seems like it will last me ages

 

[MagicSmoker]

Something else to consider is that oxygen absorbing caps are activated by getting wet and that they will only absorb oxygen for a few seconds. Dunking them in StarSan before bottling, unless you are lightning fast about it, means no more oxygen absorption. I leave it to the reader to decide which is worse/more likely: oxidation or infection.

 

[LBussy]

Something else to consider is that oxygen absorbing caps are activated by getting wet and that they will only absorb oxygen for a few seconds. Dunking them in StarSan before bottling, unless you are lightning fast about it, means no more oxygen absorption. I leave it to the reader to decide which is worse/more likely: oxidation or infection.

Those caps do activate with water, however you have more than a few seconds. I'd bet 5 minutes would be the limit though. I have some experience with the technology although I have never studied these in depth. The iron provides a vigorous redox reaction but not violent. I could give you some real violent examples if you like.

An example is the disposable pocket heaters you can buy. Once activated they definitely warm up but stop a ways short of bursting into flames in your pocket.

There is far less available O2 in water, so I think it would be reasonable to drop 5-6 in solution, and cap those, then repeat. Or just grab one, dunk, shake, cap. If you were REALLY concerned, you could use boiled water which has much less dissolved O2.

Don't over-think it. If you did deactivate the cap, you still are far better off with the possibility of O2 compared with the possibility of infection.

 

[tommysauder]

So my previous statement would be true I think, do a test and see what seems better for me. Spray a few at a time and cap, but leave a few un sprayed and just "put on". Maybe I'll make a cheap test batch and not spray them instead of using one of the better batches. Id rather have a few with oxidation than all with infection of a good brew.

 

[LBussy]

 

[tommysauder]

I figure I may as well try it. Money is not an issue for a run ($15?). I'll even pitch it ontop of a yeast cake that I have going (s33). Just a test. For sure though all my good attempts I will sanitize, but my cheap runs for the sake of beers for friends etc... I won't sanitize and note the differences

 

[tommysauder]

especially at $40 for a case of 24 here in the store.

 

[freshhoarse]

Again.. Is it that much more work to throw your caps in a cup of sanitizer that has already been prepared for sanitizing bottles? Why take the chance? For 5 seconds less work? I don't understand the argument for not sanitizing caps.

Well said

 

[Spintab]

So my previous statement would be true I think, do a test and see what seems better for me.

Not sure you're getting the point of what we are all trying to say. There is no need to even try the experiment. Even if you end up doing it and you don't have any spoil, you will have gotten lucky. There is no reason to not sanitize your caps. Not sanitizing them is not better for anyone...and other double negatives to get the point across.

 

[MagicSmoker]

Those caps do activate with water, however you have more than a few seconds. I'd bet 5 minutes would be the limit though. I have some experience with the technology although I have never studied these in depth. The iron provides a vigorous redox reaction but not violent. I could give you some real violent examples if you like. ...

Thanks for clarifying this. I just knew that the oxygen absorbing cabs were activated by water and that they could only chew up a small amount of oxygen, ergo I concluded you didn't have much time after they got wet before they were used up.

So then... I agree that there is no good reason not to dip each cap into starsan immediately before bottling. I use the "Vinator" to sanitize each bottle right before filling so it would be easy enough to dunk the cap in at the same time.

 

[tommysauder]

True enough, I am just trying to play devils advocate . I will be sanitizing each bottle cap due to cheap cost to do so. I think a spray with the bottle would be just as good as dunking them. That way I can spray and cap instantly.