So who's worked in their main electrical panel?

[mvanwie]

First and foremost, electricity is dangerous. No need for me to reiterate it, though I just did. That said, I have seen licensed electricians - having an IQ that would rival a dolphin, or worse - quickly, efficiently, and safely install wiring, boxes, panels, etc. in residential and commercial buildings. In other words, it isn't rocket science, but you have to be properly trained and/or familiar with which you're working.

Unfortunately, forums such as these are not helpful when it comes to learning anything beyond the remedial basics of electricity. You get knee-jerk reactions from the "if you have to ask..." and the "OMG, electricity will kill you" crowds that don't care if you're an apprentice who is working towards getting licensed or a character from Idiocracy. Frankly, once you understand how electricity works, everything else is pretty much common sense, math, and the simple act of looking up tables/charts and local regulations.

That said, as it relates to the OP, my success story:

For my control panel, I utilized an existing, dedicated 240-30A circuit intended for an electric clothes dryer (I have gas appliances now, so the circuit wasn't used). Fortunately, everything in my house runs through conduit (Chicago, of course), so it was simply a matter of moving equipment around to give the proper clearance/access to the sub-panel, planning & calculating a few EMT bends, securing the conduit to the floor joists, torquing the j-box connections properly, inspecting the existing wire/connections, decommissioning the old receptacle, and re-routing that wire to the spa panel that feeds my control panel. So while I didn't have to play in the main panel, a seemingly mundane project did involve quite a bit of planning and leg work (no pun intended) to ensure it was done correctly, and more importantly, to code. I could have done a shoddy install myself in under 30 minutes, but the whole thing - including research - took me 5-6 hours, although an experienced electrician could have probably done it in an hour.

 

[WroxBrew]

As an electrician I do this everyday. It's not that big of a deal. Kill the main breaker, test to make sure it killed the power and don't touch the main feed coming in as it's still hot. Be careful and good luck with your project

I am an electrician in the film industry. We tie in to breaker boxes all the time. Remember, amps kill not voltage. Plug in power in this order. Green(Ground), White(Neutral), Red, Blue, Black. Always end the sequence with your hot legs. Make sure you don't have a knee on the ground, make sure you are wearing rubber soled shoes, make sure your feet aren't wet. ETC, basically you don't want your body to complete the circuit. If you have any doubts, hire a professional, preferably an electrician who is in a union. Because if they aren't union, they are probably a hack.

All good advice.

Here's a pic of my succesfull panel job. I've been running it for over six months now without any issues (no popped breakers with 2 heaters sometimes running simultaniously). My furnace and hot water heater are gas fired. Make sure you know your whole house load.

 

[kevreh]

I am an electrician in the film industry. We tie in to breaker boxes all the time. Remember, amps kill not voltage. Plug in power in this order. Green(Ground), White(Neutral), Red, Blue, Black. Always end the sequence with your hot legs. Make sure you don't have a knee on the ground, make sure you are wearing rubber soled shoes, make sure your feet aren't wet. ETC, basically you don't want your body to complete the circuit. If you have any doubts, hire a professional, preferably an electrician who is in a union. Because if they aren't union, they are probably a hack.

Good advice about wearing rubber sole shoes. Not to mention not leaning up against anything metal.

Side story...saw an episode of This Old House where the electrician tied a new power line into the house, like 20ft up. The electrician connected the HOT 120v/240v line right to the outside of the house...while standing on a fiberglass ladder. Since he wasn't grounded he could do this safely.

 

[crazyirishman34]

I don't say don't do it yourself. Just wear the proper protective equipment. The basics being leather gloves, safety glasses and non conductive boot or shoes. It is important to buy rated shoes also just and rubber sole won't do.

 

[brewguyver]

I don't say don't do it yourself. Just wear the proper protective equipment. The basics being leather gloves, safety glasses and non conductive boot or shoes. It is important to buy rated shoes also just and rubber sole won't do.

Red wing makes a nice pair of electrical hazard resistant, puncture resistant, steel toed boots. They're heavy as hell but keep the nails out of your feet and light stuff from crushing your toes. Worth the investment, especially if you're doing other renovations.

 

[whoaru99]

Remember, amps kill not voltage.

Well...yes, but it's not just that simple.

There must be sufficient voltage with respect to resistance in order for current to flow at dangerous levels.

A 1.5V D cell battery can generate lots of current in a short circuit situation, more than enough, technically, to be fatal except that 1.5V isn't enough to overcome your normal body/skin resistance as to facilitate meaningful current.

It is the mix of voltage and current that is really the issue. This is why touching the terminals of a 12V car battery is not fatal, even though a car battery can develop hunderds or thousands of amps in a short circuit, nor is a static electricity shock fatal even though it may be thousands or tens of thousands of volts.

 

[mikeysab]

I'm an electrician and even I dont like going in to live panels, unless I wired them from the beginning. Some guys just do crappy work and you never know what could come loose or where a wire is nicked.

Pertaining to this conversation, if youre careful enough and know what to touch and what not to, you should be fine. Take off your rings and watches and chains and keep a conscious mind as to what youre doing. You could always kill the main but do not pull the wires off the breaker, as suggested earlier. Those wires will still be live. No need to handle them.

 

[thadius856]

All good advice.

Here's a pic of my succesfull panel job. I've been running it for over six months now without any issues (no popped breakers with 2 heaters sometimes running simultaniously). My furnace and hot water heater are gas fired. Make sure you know your whole house load.

A word about this panel of yours.

I like that you have secondary surge suppression in there. Two installed, in fact. However, it's not installed properly and might not function when the time comes.

Those coiled white neutrals tied into the bus at the bottom need to be uncoiled and trimmed as short as possible while still connecting to that bus safely. Surges always take the path of least resistance to ground, and we want those neutrals to be that path. It would be a shame for a surge to go into the house searching and exit through electronics.

Or perhaps I'm just reading them wrong at 6 am with no glasses. But they sure look like secondary surges to me.

 

[Bensiff]

My neighbor is an electrician and he wired in the 30 amp 220 for my brew panel and a few other circuits as well. I decided I wanted a 30 amp GFCI breaker instead of the GFCI being on an inline cord or built into the control panel so, having had my neighbor showed me the ropes I wired it in hot. Pretty easy actually, but I would have never attempted it had I not had a professional electrician teach me how to do it in the first place.

 

[kevreh]

... Pretty easy actually, but I would have never attempted it had I not had a professional electrician teach me how to do it in the first place.

Seems like thats how it is about a lot of things....seeing it done in person takes the mystery away and simplifies things. Your lucky you have a neighbor with this knowledge.

 

[Bensiff]

Seems like thats how it is about a lot of things....seeing it done in person takes the mystery away and simplifies things. Your lucky you have a neighbor with this knowledge.

He refuses to drink anything but Miller Lite so I can't pay him in homebrew. The good thing is he charges one case of Miller per beer he drinks while working and refuses to take money for the supplies he uses as he has a shed full of odds and ends from previous jobs.

BTW, for him, his beers are maintenance to keep the hands steady ...hmm maybe

 

[thadius856]

Hmmm. Sounds like a pretty good trade. Most electricians cost in excess of $100/hr and a case of BMC is, what, $15? Unless he's slamming back a brew every few minutes, you come out ahead.

Maybe you should try to tempt him with a cream ale batch, or even a blonde.

 

[mvanwie]

My neighbor is an electrician and he wired in the 30 amp 220 for my brew panel and a few other circuits as well. I decided I wanted a 30 amp GFCI breaker instead of the GFCI being on an inline cord or built into the control panel so, having had my neighbor showed me the ropes I wired it in hot. Pretty easy actually, but I would have never attempted it had I not had a professional electrician teach me how to do it in the first place.

As a kid, I watched my father - on several occasions - change out a light switch or receptacle in our home without killing the circuit. I'd always think to myself, "that's a pretty dumb thing to do." But recently, I found myself doing the same thing with a light socket in my basement... unfortunately, I'm more like my father than I ever thought I'd be, but fortunately, he taught me that if you're going to be dumb, don't make it a habit and at least be as safe as dumb can be.

Needless to say, I won't ever be doing the same thing in front of my own kids.

 

[kevreh]

As a kid, I watched my father - on several occasions - change out a light switch or receptacle in our home without killing the circuit. I'd always think to myself, "that's a pretty dumb thing to do." But recently, I found myself doing the same thing with a light socket in my basement... unfortunately, I'm more like my father than I ever thought I'd be, but fortunately, he taught me that if you're going to be dumb, don't make it a habit and at least be as safe as dumb can be.

Needless to say, I won't ever be doing the same thing in front of my own kids.

My father-in-law did the same thing. After I learned he was careful to not touch the hot and neutral or ground at the same time I was a little less freaked out by it.

 

[Poobah58]

I spoke my peace earlier but I feel I should add to it. In my town a licensed electrician must do the work with 1 exception. The homeowner can do the work but MUST follow all local codes. He then MUST get the work blessed by an electrician AND the building inspector. At the very least you must know all electrical codes. That means wire gauge, wire color, where to place outlets and lights, not burying boxes behind walls and insulation, etc. If it doesn't get inspected you are liable for anything that goes wrong even if you no longer own the home if it was deemed negligent! Something to keep in mind.

 

[whoaru99]

^^^
Right. Putting in the breaker and connecting the wires to the breaker(s) and appropriate busbars is the easy part. Running the cable and all the crossing the Ts and dotting the Is sort of things according to code is usually the tricky part.

 

[thadius856]

I wouldn't say getting to code is the "tricky part". Code is the absolute bare minimum that can be relied upon for safety. Meeting code shouldn't be the end goal. Doing good work should be.

It's odd that your town requires an electrician to approve of a homeowner's work. That would kill any reason for you to do your own, as no electrician is going to bless your work (and take on your liability) without getting the pay for the full job.

 

[whoaru99]

You miss the point. The point wasn't to do the bare minimum, but the detail in passing an inspection. Things like putting the staple within six inches of the box, distance of the cable from the edge of framing members, etc. etc. etc.. all those little details that can/will fail inspections.

 

[thadius856]

You miss the point. The point wasn't to do the bare minimum, but the detail in passing an inspection. Things like putting the staple within six inches of the box, distance of the cable from the edge of framing members, etc. etc. etc.. all those little details that can/will fail inspections.

You miss the point. Code is the bare minimum required for safety. You can certainly do better than code.

Within six inches of the box? What local code do you have that goes beyond NEC 334.30?

334.30 Securing and Supporting Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (4 1⁄2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box. junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge. Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway.

(A) Horizontal Runs Through Holes and Notches. In other than vertical runs, cables installed in accordance with 300.4 shall be considered to be supported and secured where such support does not exceed 1.4-m (4 1⁄2-ft) intervals and the nonmetallic-sheathed cable is securely fastened in place by an approved means within 300 mm (12 in.) of each box, cabinet, conduit body, or other nonmetallicsheathed cable termination.

FPN: See 314.17(C) for support where nonmetallic boxes are used

(B) Unsupported Cables. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be permitted to be unsupported where the cable:

(1) Is fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings or structures and supporting is impracticable.

(2) Is not more than 1.4 m (4 1 ⁄2 ft) from the last point of cable support to the point of connection to a luminaire or other piece of electrical equipment and the cable and point of connection are within an accessible ceiling

 

[whoaru99]

Thank you. That exactly makes my point. I was wondering if someone would catch that.

Here is the point again...

It's the little details that people aren't aware of that are most likely to fail the inspection when you're DIY wiring. Not the easy part of plugging the breaker into the panel and screwing down a few wires.

 

[mikeysab]

Was thinking if this thread at work today. Changing a panel feed from one transformer to another, my foreman tells me "the day is almost over, lets just cut the feed live and put the new feed in so we dont have to turn the other two panels off". Not a smart move but we very carefully cut the live feed and safed it off. A number of bad things could have happened but we changed over with no problems.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Was thinking if this thread at work today. Changing a panel feed from one transformer to another, my foreman tells me "the day is almost over, lets just cut the feed live and put the new feed in so we dont have to turn the other two panels off". Not a smart move but we very carefully cut the live feed and safed it off. A number of bad things could have happened but we changed over with no problems.

Ah, the ol' "let's cut corners and risk our safety so we can get home a few minutes earlier... if we survive". Classic.

 

[kevreh]

Quick question for the electricians out there. I have a split bus panel. The breaker controlling the lower half is 60a 240v. I have a number of single pole breakers below it, collectively exceeding the 60a on each side. Is that something that HAS to be brought up to code...or is this "normal" since each breaker on each leg won't be used 100% at the same time.

Thanks

 

[Skodi]

Ah, the ol' "let's cut corners and risk our safety so we can get home a few minutes earlier... if we survive". Classic.

As if its any different than driving 70 mph hour in a 55 to get home a few minutes earlier and risking the life of others as well as yourself. Classic.

 

[whoaru99]

Quick question for the electricians out there. I have a split bus panel. The breaker controlling the lower half is 60a 240v. I have a number of single pole breakers below it, collectively exceeding the 60a on each side. Is that something that HAS to be brought up to code...or is this "normal" since each breaker on each leg won't be used 100% at the same time.

Thanks

FWIW, the sum of breaker ratings on each leg of my 150A panel exceeds 150A, and the panel has been officially inspected at this fill level.

 

[mikeysab]

Ah, the ol' "let's cut corners and risk our safety so we can get home a few minutes earlier... if we survive". Classic.

Well, we worked as safely as possible and whoever was in the room was there willingly. Still, we shoulda shut the feed down. All went well, so hooray for us....i guess.

 

[dannylerch]

In the film industry we do tie ins to 220 and 240 all the time. We also run cable and connect cam lock connectors to 480v+ that are hot as well. The key is not having a load on the voltage when you're making your connections. Remember, amps kill not voltage. Voltage can still rock your world, but amps do the real damage. When we tie in to a live bus bar, we use trico cam lock connectors. We stand on an apple box coated with rubber. We separate the bus bars with pieces of cardboard coated in rubber. Then we tie a rope around the waist of the technician, just to ensure if the technician gets locked on we can pull him off. We also check the voltage and amps with a multimeter. Begin bringing breakers down to reduce thr amperage to be ultra safe. Make your connections starting with ground, neutral, then hot legs. Very safe if you know what you're doing. We Dont screw around in the film industry. Safety always trumps everything else. I got 220'd a few years back due to some bad shielding on some 4/0t cable. It blew me back 10 feet. There was something like 200 amps on the blue and red legs of our rig. I was very lucky to be alive. Since then I've become very very aware of the condition of the equipment.

 

[kevreh]

In the film industry we do tie ins to 220 and 240 all the time. We also run cable and connect cam lock connectors to 480v+ that are hot as well. The key is not having a load on the voltage when you're making your connections. Remember, amps kill not voltage. Voltage can still rock your world, but amps do the real damage. When we tie in to a live bus bar, we use trico cam lock connectors. We stand on an apple box coated with rubber. We separate the bus bars with pieces of cardboard coated in rubber. Then we tie a rope around the waist of the technician, just to ensure if the technician gets locked on we can pull him off. We also check the voltage and amps with a multimeter. Begin bringing breakers down to reduce thr amperage to be ultra safe. Make your connections starting with ground, neutral, then hot legs. Very safe if you know what you're doing. We Dont screw around in the film industry. Safety always trumps everything else. I got 220'd a few years back due to some bad shielding on some 4/0t cable. It blew me back 10 feet. There was something like 200 amps on the blue and red legs of our rig. I was very lucky to be alive. Since then I've become very very aware of the condition of the equipment.

That sound safe, but humorous...the rope thing. So, why did you get knocked back, versus other stories where people can't let go?

I've always wondered that, say you have a hot 120 or 240 line with no load on it, and you grab the hot and neutral. How bad will you get shocked since there's no load? Also, in theory, you can grab the hot *as long as your not grounded* right? Just curious.

 

[PleasantValleyHops]

If you have any doubts, hire a professional, preferably an electrician who is in a union. Because if they aren't union, they are probably a hack.

+1
As a union electrician. I've gone in after many "rats" throw stuff together and have to fix a lot of stuff. I stopped reading after this post. Not sure if anyone brought it up yet. But any power u have in a house is enough to kill you. Only takes 5 milli amps to kill you. "Or about the same power as a nightlight! Just be careful and what i tell most new apprentises "if you unconfortable with anything electrical then don't mess with it".

Cheers

 

[dannylerch]

That sound safe, but humorous...the rope thing. So, why did you get knocked back, versus other stories where people can't let go?

I've always wondered that, say you have a hot 120 or 240 line with no load on it, and you grab the hot and neutral. How bad will you get shocked since there's no load? Also, in theory, you can grab the hot *as long as your not grounded* right? Just curious.

In the film business we run very large lights that pull a lot of amps. It really depends, I've heard stories where people get locked on, and I've heard stories and have experienced the blow back. It really just depends on what muscles are engaged by the shock.

"I have heard that D/C current simply locks up your muscles so you cannot disengage from the power source, and so will simply be locked up until you die from respiratory failure. A/C, will seize up your muscles, but as the current switches cycles, the current momentarily switches off, so causing your muscles to react against the seizure and throw you off.

It may also possibly be influenced by which muscle groups are effected (with Tazers, depending on which part of the body is hit, it can cause the body simply to go rigid, or to get thrown into the air from muscle contractions, or simply to collapse onto the floor - although Tazers are somewhat more specific in their actions than indiscriminate electric shocks)."

Does that make sense? There is no real way to predict what muscles the shock will trigger. Could lock your hands on, or it could cause your legs and core to spasm, throwing you across the room.